Should Private Schools be Closed?

foggy_lad

Just heard a horrible story on the news about the sexual assault of a 13 year old boy in King's Hospital School in Palmerstown, It appears the boy was assaulted with a hockey stick by eight other students in a dormitory in the school last Thursday.

Is it time that these elitist boarding schools were shut down and students put into mainstream education instead?

If the school thought they could not report this serious assault for a week what other assaults are they covering up? It seems the Protestant religion and their schools are just as bad as the Roman Catholics when it comes to cover-ups. I wonder were the family asked to keep the assault quiet? have other assaults in the past been covered up?


http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/kings-hospital/

The Garda and child and family agency Tusla are investigating an alleged incident at a major Dublin boarding school, following a claim that a 13-year-old boy was sexually assaulted in a dormitory with a hockey stick by eight other pupils.

The incident is alleged to have taken place late last Thursday night at the 450-year-old Church of Ireland-governed King’s Hospital secondary school in Palmerstown

However, it was not reported to the Garda, Tusla, or the Church of Ireland authorities until Tuesday.

… In February 2008, King’s Hospital and Swim Ireland agreed to pay substantial damages after a 10-year dispute to 13 female victims of convicted sex abuser Derry O’Rourke, who had been employed by the school as a swimming coach.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/boy-13-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-by-pupils-at-boarding-school-1.2888315

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

No. I went to a public school where almost everyone was bullied. Nasty vicious little sh1ts will be nasty no matter where they are

osarusan

Probably best just to close all schools.

Bridge93

This thread should be fun to watch...

Water John

Everyone welcome, just be sure to bring your prejudice with you.
No toleration of other opinions, tolerated.

Happened in a factory down my country a few years ago with an air hose. They didn't close the factory.

Mena

How the hell is this a reason to close private schools? Serious logic fail.

dotsman

Should Private Schools be Closed?

No - are you crazy???
57% of students attend private schools - if we were to close them, where exactly do you see these students getting an education???

Renegade Mechanic

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just heard a horrible story on the news about the sexual assault of a 13 year old boy in King's Hospital School in Palmerstown, It appears the boy was assaulted with a hockey stick by eight other students in a dormitory in the school last Thursday.

You reckon stuff like that doesn't happen in public schools? Lol...

Armchair Andy

Water John wrote:

Happened in a factory down my country a few years ago with an air hose. They didn't close the factory.

That was fvckin horrible that was.

Temptamperu

Why are their Skool tho?

Dr Crayfish

dotsman wrote: »

Should Private Schools be Closed?

No - are you crazy???
57% of students attend private schools - if we were to close them, where exactly do you see these students getting an education???

57%? Right.

Anyway, the idea of Private Schools is kind of wrong to anyone with socialist leanings, but on the other hand why shouldn't someone who can afford it be allowed send their kid to a better school? Although maybe if all schools were public people would put more money into the schools their darling sons and daughters are attending for better facilities? That sounds like the best outcome really.

Grayson

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

57%? Right.

Anyway, the idea of Private Schools is kind of wrong to anyone with socialist leanings, but on the other hand why shouldn't someone who can afford it be allowed send their kid to a better school? Although maybe if all schools were public people would put more money into the schools their darling sons and daughters are attending for better facilities? That sounds like the best outcome really.

I'm assuming that all catholic schools are technically private schools.

I went to a school that had boarders and day pupils. Nothing like what happened in the OP ever occurred there. Sure there were pranks. Some of them not nice but they never descended to violence and I doubt that a public school is any different.

biko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psl7ZVwiRl4

Water John

I suspect the OP really meant, fee paying schools.

No, private ( ie feepaying schools) should not be closed.

This is a horrible incident but did not occur because the school was fee paying

nice_guy80

Grayson wrote: »

I'm assuming that all catholic schools are technically private schools.

I went to a school that had boarders and day pupils. Nothing like what happened in the OP ever occurred there. Sure there were pranks. Some of them not nice but they never descended to violence and I doubt that a public school is any different.

Cannot be private schools if fees are not charged

So 95% of schools are public

sjb25

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, private ( ie feepaying schools) should not be closed.

This is a horrible incident but did not occur because the school was fee paying

Exactly this the little ****s didn't do that because they are in a fee paying school they are just scum

dotsman

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

57%? Right.

As Grayson has already stated, all religious schools are private. See here for more details...

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Anyway, the idea of Private Schools is kind of wrong to anyone with socialist leanings, but on the other hand why shouldn't someone who can afford it be allowed send their kid to a better school? Although maybe if all schools were public people would put more money into the schools their darling sons and daughters are attending for better facilities? That sounds like the best outcome really.

Well, if it appears wrong to people with socialist leanings, then it's probably the best thing to do!.

the parents of those attending fee-paying schools are already paying for non-fee-paying schools. Often, many, many times over. Closing fee-paying schools would leave a massive shortfall in the education budget.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cannot be private schools if fees are not charged

So 95% of schools are public

Of course they can be, and are, private, regardless of fees. Fees are often dispersed from the fee-paying private schools to the non-fee-paying private schools. But they are all private.

Pac1Man

It's political correctness gone mad.

Goya

I thought non fee-paying religious schools in Ireland were state schools.

Water John

Went to a private school, no fees, not religious.

srsly78

In many boarding schools the fees are just for boarding, the teachers are the same as anywhere else - paid by the state.

Thus it's difficult to say whether a school is private/public.

Del.Monte

They should just close down all Protestant schools as we all know they are the devil's spawn.

spurious

Flimpson wrote: »

I thought non fee-paying religious schools in Ireland were state schools.

Technically, they are privately owned. The State schools would be the VEC/ETB schools. Usually when people say private school in Ireland, they mean fee paying, not the Holy Faith up the road.

srsly78

spurious wrote: »

Technically, they are privately owned. The State schools would be the VEC/ETB schools. Usually when people say private school in Ireland, they mean fee paying, not the Holy Faith up the road.

And what about day pupils attending a boarding school that pay nothing?

Point of information: the vast, vast majority of schools in the 26 counties are, in fact, "private schools", with the largest private owner being the RCC. Only about 15% of schools are genuine public/state schools - e.g. community colleges/VEC/ETB schools - owned by the Irish state. That, I hope, will be changed.

The OP I assume is really talking about fee-charging schools, which are a decreasing minority of Irish schools. I don't think this incident is an indictment of them - bullying happens in all schools to varying degrees. However, I do believe we should not have our taxes supplementing the existence of fee-charging schools.

If people want to send their children to fee-charging schools, let them pay for them fully and not be supplemented by our taxes. That €100 million plus subsidy would be better spent building up a state school system. If that were removed from fee-charging schools their fees would increase from c. €6500 to c. €25,000 per annum (which is the sort of fees charged by "Independent Schools" in England, where private schools have received no state subsidies since 1975).


At any rate, fee-charging schools are not good value for money in the vast majority of cases as there are many excellent public schools. For instance, the school in the state with the highest number of students going on to university is not a fee-charging school but a free gaelscoil in Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin. Given the advantages the €6k plus fee per year gives to fee-charging schools in terms of resources this says something about the merits of fee-charging schools. An engaged/involved parent is a much greater benefit to a child's education than the extra resources which a fee-charging school can provide - e.g. sailing lessons.

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

Del.Monte

Where are the men of '98 when you need them?

nice_guy80

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Cannot be private schools if fees are not charged

So 95% of schools are public

This is factually incorrect. Indisputably so. Let the state try and take over the local Loreto or Mercy and watch the RCC's lawyers sort them out.

josha1

Deleted User wrote: »

Point of information: the vast, vast majority of schools in the 26 counties are, in fact, "private schools", with the largest private owner being the RCC. Only about 15% of schools are genuine public/state schools - e.g. community colleges/VEC/ETB schools - owned by the Irish state. That, I hope, will be changed.

The OP I assume is really talking about fee-charging schools, which are a decreasing minority of Irish schools. I don't think this incident is an indictment of them - bullying happens in all schools to varying degrees. However, I do believe we should not have our taxes supplementing the existence of fee-charging schools.

If people want to send their children to fee-charging schools, let them pay for them fully and not be supplemented by our taxes. That €100 million plus subsidy would be better spent building up a state school system. If that were removed from fee-charging schools their fees would increase from c. €6500 to c. €25,000 per annum (which is the sort of fees charged by "Independent Schools" in England, where private schools have received no state subsidies since 1975).


At any rate, fee-charging schools are not good value for money in the vast majority of cases as there are many excellent public schools. For instance, the school in the state with the highest number of students going on to university is not a fee-charging school but a free gaelscoil in Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin. Given the advantages the €6k plus fee per year gives to fee-charging schools in terms of resources this says something about the merits of fee-charging schools. An engaged/involved parent is a much greater benefit to a child's education than the extra resources which a fee-charging school can provide - e.g. sailing lessons.

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

Is it not true to say that the parents of children in private schools also effectively subsidise public school students, since public schools do get more funding for certain things?

Are you aware that most of the 'extras' offered in private schools such as extra support, study hours etc are in no way provided for in taxes? Do you think that parents should not have the option of these?

If all private schools were closed tomorrow, would there not be a massive shortfall in funding for all schools? If on the other hand, taxes are not put into private schools, albeit significantly less amounts than public schools, as per your recommendation, should parents of people in private school have to now completely subsidise public schools for no benefit?

[In response to the OP, this has nothing to do with being a catholic school, a protestant school, a fee paying school, a private school, a school in Dublin, a mixed school of anything else of the matter. It's to do with bullying, that occurs everywhere.]

Widdershins

I presume the thinking is that it wouldn't happen as easily if the students weren't together, unsupervised, in dormitories. It doesn't happen often, so it's not a reason to worry about boarding schools.

Berserker

Can the state afford to pay for the education of the students in these private schools, if they are closed down?

Water John

Water John wrote: »

Went to a private school, no fees, not religious.

I'm struggling to think of that one. A friend told me he sends his child to a fee-charging non-denominational school. Upon questioning him, what he really meant was it wasn't Catholic - they had bible class and were under the ownership of the Quakers (the school in Rathgar).

There are multidenominational schools in Ireland, but is there a single non-denominational school in Ireland, north or south? (Educate Together are multidenominational schools, not non-denominational and all state schools in the North are obviously Anglican by virtue of being British state schools)

I'd be very surprised if there is.

VinLieger

Every studeny in private education costs the depsrtment of education half of what a child in public education costs, with the teachers raises ibcoming where would we also get the money to buy new schools operate them and then pay for all the extra students?

Just the usual ill thought out garbage whenever someone with a chip on their shoulder decides private schools are responsible for all our problems

ted1

spurious wrote: »

Technically, they are privately owned. The State schools would be the VEC/ETB schools. Usually when people say private school in Ireland, they mean fee paying, not the Holy Faith up the road.

No private schools in Ireland , just public or semi private

josha1

Berserker wrote: »

Can the state afford to pay for the education of the students in these private schools, if they are closed down?

Considering the fact that both second and third level funding has been dramatically decreased in recent years, no. As it stands private students cost the state about half of what public students cost, but in the name of 'equality', we should apparently restrict choice, which will likely bring about cuts to both types of school (but at least everyone will suffer!).

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Point of information: the vast, vast majority of schools in the 26 counties are, in fact, "private schools", with the largest private owner being the RCC. Only about 15% of schools are genuine public/state schools - e.g. community colleges/VEC/ETB schools - owned by the Irish state. That, I hope, will be changed.

The OP I assume is really talking about fee-charging schools, which are a decreasing minority of Irish schools. I don't think this incident is an indictment of them - bullying happens in all schools to varying degrees. However, I do believe we should not have our taxes supplementing the existence of fee-charging schools.

Part of your problem is that the schools play Rugby as oppose to Football? Maybe we should close down all the soccer clubs while we are at it.


If people want to send their children to fee-charging schools, let them pay for them fully and not be supplemented by our taxes. That €100 million plus subsidy would be better spent building up a state school system. If that were removed from fee-charging schools their fees would increase from c. €6500 to c. €25,000 per annum (which is the sort of fees charged by "Independent Schools" in England, where private schools have received no state subsidies since 1975).


At any rate, fee-charging schools are not good value for money in the vast majority of cases as there are many excellent public schools. For instance, the school in the state with the highest number of students going on to university is not a fee-charging school but a free gaelscoil in Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin. Given the advantages the €6k plus fee per year gives to fee-charging schools in terms of resources this says something about the merits of fee-charging schools. An engaged/involved parent is a much greater benefit to a child's education than the extra resources which a fee-charging school can provide - e.g. sailing lessons.

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

So you measure schools by students going in to 3rd level. So you ignore all trades or those that go straight into business or abroad.
And it's not colasite Eoin it's Iosagain the girls school that's in the same site.


Why not look at where the students end up in 20 years.

If fees were to go from 6k to 25k, schools will close and the state will then have to seriously increase the budget for education because it costs them less to have students in semi private schools as the school has to look after the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings as oppose to the dept if education.

josha1

josha1 wrote: »

Is it not true to say that the parents of children in private schools also effectively subsidise public school students, since public schools do get more funding for certain things?

Are you aware that most of the 'extras' offered in private schools such as extra support, study hours etc are in no way provided for in taxes? Do you think that parents should not have the option of these?

If all private schools were closed tomorrow, would there not be a massive shortfall in funding for all schools? If on the other hand, taxes are not put into private schools, albeit significantly less amounts than public schools, as per your recommendation, should parents of people in private school have to now completely subsidise public schools for no benefit?

[In response to the OP, this has nothing to do with being a catholic school, a protestant school, a fee paying school, a private school, a school in Dublin, a mixed school of anything else of the matter. It's to do with bullying, that occurs everywhere.]

You raise some decent points there. Funding of fee-charging schools is complex but in a nutshell most teachers are paid for by the state. The school then pays for extra teachers (usually, if not always, on inferior conditions of employment) to bring classroom sizes down but this is by no means guaranteed; they could use the fees to provide a teacher for another subject and thus improve choice. In addition, the state gives large amounts of money as capitation grants to subsidise schools extensions, renovations, maintenance, etc.

Collie D

I can only assume the OP is being ironic ie there are often calls to close Catholic schools because of past abuses (over simplifying on my part).

For my own part/prejudice as soon as I heard hockey sticks on radio I instantly thought "private/possibly Protestant ethos school".

Should they be closed? Eh, no. But I don't think the OP was genuinely asking a question.

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

I went to a catholic boarding school run by priests. No soccer, loads of GAA. Daily lessons in religion. Confession every friday and benediction every morning in the month of May. There was also a tennis court. Is that west brit enough for you?

ted1

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just heard a horrible story on the news about the sexual assault of a 13 year old boy in King's Hospital School in Palmerstown, It appears the boy was assaulted with a hockey stick by eight other students in a dormitory in the school last Thursday.

Is it time that these elitist boarding schools were shut down and students put into mainstream education instead?

If the school thought they could not report this serious assault for a week what other assaults are they covering up? It seems the Protestant religion and their schools are just as bad as the Roman Catholics when it comes to cover-ups. I wonder were the family asked to keep the assault quiet? have other assaults in the past been covered up?


http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/kings-hospital/



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/boy-13-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-by-pupils-at-boarding-school-1.2888315

If I recall correctly you did another thread before about closing semi private schools, that chip must be huge.

With all the revelations in the news today , should we disband all soccer clubs ?

Grayson

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm struggling to think of that one. A friend told me he sends his child to a fee-charging non-denominational school. Upon questioning him, what he really meant was it wasn't Catholic - they had bible class and were under the ownership of the Quakers (the school in Rathgar).

There are multidenominational schools in Ireland, but is there a single non-denominational school in Ireland, north or south? (Educate Together are multidenominational schools, not non-denominational and all state schools in the North are obviously Anglican by virtue of being British state schools)

I'd be very surprised if there is.

Would the John Scottus be non denominational? http://www.johnscottus.ie/about/

They teach every religion.

josha1

Deleted User wrote: »

You raise some decent points there. Funding of fee-charging schools is complex but in a nutshell most teachers are paid for by the state. The school then pays for extra teachers (usually, if not always, on inferior conditions of employment) to bring classroom sizes down but this is by no means guaranteed; they could use the fees to provide a teacher for another subject and thus improve choice. In addition, the state gives large amounts of money as capitation grants to subsidise schools extensions, renovations, maintenance, etc.

While you are one of the few people who seem to be aware that none of the extra teachers are paid for by the state, and I commend you for that, I'm sure you're aware that paying for teachers is only a part of the states funding for a school [although that could change with the strikes every other week]

In reality, they have loads more expenses that aren't covered by the state for private schools. Like I said, a private student costs the state roughly half what a public student does, so it's hard to not see the consequences of removing private being negative on both sets of parents, but more importantly students.

[as a side note on 'inferior contracts'. I wouldn't exactly call them inferior. It's not like they're 0 hour contracts or something, generally if it's being paid for by the school not the state they initially offer a 1 year contract, and extend if needed/ wanted.]

ted1

Grayson wrote: »

Would the John Scottus be non denominational? http://www.johnscottus.ie/about/

They teach every religion.

My school taught about every religion.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

So you measure schools by students going in to 3rd level. So you ignore all trades or those that go straight into business or abroad.

That, whether people like it or not (and personally I don't) is a measurement used by many parents; more pertinently, the vast majority of parents who would send their children to a fee-charging school - an academic school, not a 'technical' school like the community college - will be far more interested in that measurement than they are in the rate of progression from said academic school to an apprenticeship with FÁS/SOLAS.

ted1 wrote: »

And it's not colasite Eoin it's Iosagain the girls school that's in the same site.

According to The Irish Times article I linked to (and which you evidently didn't read): 'However, a number of schools outside this traditional group also rank towards the top of league tables, including community and non-fee paying schools. Coláiste Eoin in Stillorgan, Co Dublin, an all-boys gaelscoil, heads the overall rankings, followed by the fee-paying Cistercian College in Roscrea, Co Tipperary...'

ted1 wrote: »

If fees were to go from 6k to 25k, schools will close and the state will then have to seriously increase the budget for education because it costs them less to have students in semi private schools as the school has to look after the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings as oppose to the dept if education.

Fee-charging schools would certainly close. But the €100 million plus which goes into that fee-charging sector at the moment could be redirected into the state school system. It could be true that it would cost the state more, or the state would get greater economies of scale from being in charge of all schools and therefore it could save the state money.

Widdershins

Grayson wrote: »

Would the John Scottus be non denominational? http://www.johnscottus.ie/about/

They teach every religion.

I think that's multi faith

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That, whether people like it or not (and personally I don't) is a measurement used by many parents; more pertinently, the vast majority of parents who would send their children to a fee-charging school - an academic school, not a 'technical' school like the community college - will be far more interested in that measurement than they are in the rate of progression from said academic school to an apprenticeship with FÁS/SOLAS.




According to The Irish Times article I linked to (and which you evidently didn't read): 'However, a number of schools outside this traditional group also rank towards the top of league tables, including community and non-fee paying schools. Coláiste Eoin in Stillorgan, Co Dublin, an all-boys gaelscoil, heads the overall rankings, followed by the fee-paying Cistercian College in Roscrea, Co Tipperary...'




Fee-charging schools would certainly close. But the €100 million plus which goes into that fee-charging sector at the moment could be redirected into the state school system. It could be true that it would cost the state more, or the state would get greater economies of scale from being in charge of all schools and therefore it could save the state money.

You'd be wrong about parents basing schools on 3rd level access. They look for a rounded education where the kids can socialise with their peers.

Colaiste Eoin is 18th on the list, it's also an Irish school which means students get bonus points in the leaving cert.

That 100m would be funnelled into making places for people coming from semi private schools , it would also need to be topped up by another 100m. It will cost the state money as highlighted in every report that looked into it.

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

Would the John Scottus be non denominational? http://www.johnscottus.ie/about/

They teach every religion.

I think that would make them multidenominational. I checked years ago and I couldn't find a non-denominational school in Ireland - but I could have missed one.

There are a few schools such as Headfort preparatory boarding primary school in Kells (the Meath one) which is a genuinely private school receiving no money from the state so they wouldn't have a responsibility to teach any religion. But from a friend who went there and was marched up to mass/service in Kells town every Sunday morning they were at least multidenominational (although the school's website says the following: 'Headfort is proud to be non-denominational. We do, however, teach religion, taking an inclusive approach and introducing our pupils to multiple variations of Christianity as well as other major world religions. We hold First Communion services when we have a quorum of pupils whose parents request it; we can also prepare pupils for Confirmation.' That description would, to me, qualify the school as multidenominational, not non-denominational.)

Grayson

Grayson wrote: »

I went to a catholic boarding school run by priests. No soccer, loads of GAA. Daily lessons in religion. Confession every friday and benediction every morning in the month of May. There was also a tennis court. Is that west brit enough for you?

It wasn't in Dublin. That's for sure.

ted1

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It wasn't in Dublin. That's for sure.

my school in Dublin played football and rugby

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

You'd be wrong about parents basing schools on 3rd level access. They look for a rounded education where the kids can socialise with their peers.

You're projecting. I sense the entire academic school thing and academics generally make you uncomfortable. That's fine. However, I said 'many parents', and like it or not many parents do look at Leaving Certificate results. Just accept it and move on.

ted1 wrote: »

Colaiste Eoin is 18th on the list, it's also an Irish school which means students get bonus points in the leaving cert.

Actually, it's first on the list (although why you're getting fixated on this tangential point is a bit strange). Again you seem to be creating a parallel universe for yourself there. Here's the article for a third time. Read it... carefully. And a helpful sentence (again): 'Coláiste Eoin in Stillorgan, Co Dublin, an all-boys gaelscoil, heads the overall rankings'. Move on, please.

ted1 wrote: »

That 100m would be funnelled into making places for people coming from semi private schools , it would also need to be topped up by another 100m. It will cost the state money as highlighted in every report that looked into it.

Have you seen some McKinsey report on the finances of this move? If not how can you be so sure about such things? Could you link to one of these "reports"?

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

my school in Dublin played football and rugby

The existence of a football team somewhere in the background is not the issue. If you were in a fee-charging school in Dublin it was a rugby school first and foremost and certainly did not have "loads of GAA". The reason Gormanston College is just over the border in the Diocese of Meath is that McQuaid refused to allow the Franciscans, historically supportive of Gaelic Ireland, establish an academic GAA-supporting school in the Archdiocese of Dublin.