Should Private Schools be Closed?

Bridge93 · 06-12-2016 11:28AM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Someone has just been studying The Criminal Justice Act ðŸ˜‚

it was only a threat of penetration. Which still, in legal respect, is sexual assault.

Haha i did law in college and something twigged in my memory about a change that meant men could now fall under rape in certain scenarios.
still incredibly serious and traumatising. nonetheless.

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 11:30AM

In fairness I got a year in one and I was born in a council house. Do you know what though? I didn't meet one person who deserved to be there any more than I did. Another kid was from a foster home due to his father being an alcoholic. Some of the posters here might think he has less right to be there because his father spent money on drink but I don't agree with punishing (or rewarding) a child for something their parents did or didn't do.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 11:38AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness I got a year in one and I was born in a council house. Do you know what though? I didn't meet one person who deserved to be there any more than I did. Another kid was from a foster home due to his father being an alcoholic. Some of the posters here might think he has less right to be there because his father spent money on drink but I don't agree with punishing (or rewarding) a child for something their parents did or didn't do.

You are making no sense though............. The reason he isn't there is because he doesn't have the funds?? It is the way of the world.
You aren't "punishing" the kids at all? Nor are you "rewarding" others. You are buying a service.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 11:39AM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Haha i did law in college and something twigged in my memory about a change that meant men could now fall under rape in certain scenarios.
still incredibly serious and traumatising. nonetheless.

I just done my criminal FE1 exam last month so I could tell you were reciting and showing off a bit !

:D

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 11:42AM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

You are making no sense though............. The reason he isn't there is because he doesn't have the funds?? It is the way of the world.
You aren't "punishing" the kids at all? Nor are you "rewarding" others. You are buying a service.

Well actually TB giving one child an better education relative to another is rewarding/punishment. The difference between private school and public is night and day.

josha1 · 06-12-2016 11:42AM

Bridge93 wrote: »

Haha i did law in college and something twigged in my memory about a change that meant men could now fall under rape in certain scenarios.
still incredibly serious and traumatising. nonetheless.

I don't know how you could possibly have studied law, let alone criminal law, given this.

Bridge93 wrote: »

was there penetration or just the threat to? Because one is a serious sexual assault under duress. If god forbid there was penetration then I think that's statutory rape of a minor as the law is now

You either have no clue what that is or else are a very sick individual.

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 11:42AM

Jawgap wrote: »

Quotas are a bit artificial.

Personally, in answer to the question in the thread title, I don't think private schools should be closed, but they shouldn't be funded directly by the state.

Parents should have a wide choice on where and how they educate their kids and if they don't want to use the public school system, then fair enough. They should be able to get a 'voucher' equivalent to the nominal cost of a year's education which they can then take to the private school to offset against whatever fee they are charging.

Private schools getting funds from the state and substantial funds from parents is great for the kids, but not particularly fair in the context of equality of access to the best education.

I'm torn on state funding. State funding does enable more people to afford to send their child to these kinds of schools.

Jawgap · 06-12-2016 11:48AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm torn on state funding. State funding does enable more people to afford to send their child to these kinds of schools.

Only if you assume that state funding operates as a subsidy to keep a lid on fees - the only way to keep a lid on fees, in my view, is to open these places up more to market forces.

Plus, in fairness, people who send their kids there and who send them there anyway should 'get their money back' for not using the public system - then direct that notional amount towards the school of their choice.

Under the current model the schools can use fees to maintain exclusivity and while it's admirable that some parents work their nuts off and make sacrifices to give their kids that kind of opportunity they shouldn't have to do that either.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 11:50AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well actually TB giving one child an better education relative to another is rewarding/punishment. The difference between private school and public is night and day.

There are plenty of good public schools around. Load of nonsense. I went to a CBS which had better Leaving Cert results than a couple of private schools in Kildare a lot of the time.

It is the same syllabus and teachers come from the same education background. You make of education what you do. It is personal dedication and parental support rather than money which allows you to flourish, academically.

Teach that to your kids and stop the inferiority complex that you have towards private school education.

whoopsadoodles · 06-12-2016 11:53AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness I got a year in one and I was born in a council house. Do you know what though? I didn't meet one person who deserved to be there any more than I did. Another kid was from a foster home due to his father being an alcoholic. Some of the posters here might think he has less right to be there because his father spent money on drink but I don't agree with punishing (or rewarding) a child for something their parents did or didn't do.

I don't think he doesn't deserve to be there at all. Not in the slightest. I also grew up in a council house in a pretty rough area.

How many children get to choose where they go to school? I certainly didn't.

It's always the parents' choice of where their child goes to school.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:12PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness I got a year in one and I was born in a council house. Do you know what though? I didn't meet one person who deserved to be there any more than I did. Another kid was from a foster home due to his father being an alcoholic. Some of the posters here might think he has less right to be there because his father spent money on drink but I don't agree with punishing (or rewarding) a child for something their parents did or didn't do.

I don't think he doesn't deserve to be there at all. Not in the slightest. I also grew up in a council house in a pretty rough area.

How many children get to choose where they go to school? I certainly didn't.

It's always the parents' choice of where their child goes to school.

That's why they are your parents. They are your legal guardians and choosing to send you to a non fee paying school is hardly an abuse of their powers or even negligent.
Did you have a poor education that you are blaming entirely on your school being public or something? ??

Why the inferiority complex

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 12:17PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Only if you assume that state funding operates as a subsidy to keep a lid on fees - the only way to keep a lid on fees, in my view, is to open these places up more to market forces.

Plus, in fairness, people who send their kids there and who send them there anyway should 'get their money back' for not using the public system - then direct that notional amount towards the school of their choice.

Under the current model the schools can use fees to maintain exclusivity and while it's admirable that some parents work their nuts off and make sacrifices to give their kids that kind of opportunity they shouldn't have to do that either.

I would be in favour of parents having to pay into the school their child goes to.

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 12:18PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

That's why they are your parents. They are your legal guardians and choosing to send you to a non fee paying school is hardly an abuse of their powers or even negligent.
Did you have a poor education that you are blaming entirely on your school being public or something? ??

Why the inferiority complex

What are you talking about? Who are you addressing?

whoopsadoodles · 06-12-2016 12:19PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

That's why they are your parents. They are your legal guardians and choosing to send you to a non fee paying school is hardly an abuse of their powers or even negligent.
Did you have a poor education that you are blaming entirely on your school being public or something? ??

Why the inferiority complex

Ya wha?

josha1 · 06-12-2016 12:19PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I would be in favour of parents having to pay into the school their child goes to.

That's the current system? Why are you arguing against yourself?

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 12:21PM

josha1 wrote: »

That's the current system? Why are you arguing against yourself?

I believe all schools should be fee paying. A direct cost to the parent. How am I arguing against myself?

whoopsadoodles · 06-12-2016 12:27PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

What are you talking about? Who are you addressing?

I think he was addressing me, which means he entirely missed my point.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:31PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

The Talking Bread wrote: »

That's why they are your parents. They are your legal guardians and choosing to send you to a non fee paying school is hardly an abuse of their powers or even negligent.
Did you have a poor education that you are blaming entirely on your school being public or something? ??

Why the inferiority complex

Ya wha?

Ya what, wha? It's pretty simple what I'm saying. A claim that a child is being punished for not getting into a private school would suggest that someone has an inferiority complex as to the fact they got public school education.

whoopsadoodles · 06-12-2016 12:33PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Ya what, wha? It's pretty simple what I'm saying. A claim that a child is being punished for not getting into a private school would suggest that someone has an inferiority complex as to the fact they got public school education.

Who are you addressing though? Looks like you're addressing me, but if you are you haven't read my posts....

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

They do let people in from working class backgrounds though. They let anyone at all in, well the ones near me do, and there's a fair few of them. Anyone who is willing to cough up the fees can have access. It's really that simple.

Some also offer scholarships to anyone who is particularly smart, particularly good at sports, particularly good at music/singing. Makes zero odds where they're from, if they've a talent to offer the school they have the opportunity to get in for free or on reduced fees.

As I said on another thread, I know people who spend more on smoking each week than it costs to put a kid into some of these schools.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:33PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

What are you talking about? Who are you addressing?

I think he was addressing me, which means he entirely missed my point.

I assumed you were agreeing with steddyeddys "punishment" remark.

Maybe I picked you up wrong.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:35PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Ya what, wha? It's pretty simple what I'm saying. A claim that a child is being punished for not getting into a private school would suggest that someone has an inferiority complex as to the fact they got public school education.

Who are you addressing though? Looks like you're addressing me, but if you are you haven't read my posts....

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

They do let people in from working class backgrounds though. They let anyone at all in, well the ones near me do, and there's a fair few of them. Anyone who is willing to cough up the fees can have access. It's really that simple.

Some also offer scholarships to anyone who is particularly smart, particularly good at sports, particularly good at music/singing. Makes zero odds where they're from, if they've a talent to offer the school they have the opportunity to get in for free or on reduced fees.

As I said on another thread, I know people who spend more on smoking each week than it costs to put a kid into some of these schools.

Sorry I thought your post indicated you were agreeing with the "punishment " remark

whoopsadoodles · 06-12-2016 12:35PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I assumed you were agreeing with steddyeddys "punishment" remark.

Maybe I picked you up wrong.

No, the exact opposite in fact.

Steddyeddy was suggesting that the children in public schools didn't have a choice and were being punished. I stated that no child has a choice where they go to school, no matter what their background, as it's chosen by their parents.

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 12:40PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I assumed you were agreeing with steddyeddys "punishment" remark.

Maybe I picked you up wrong.

Don't take things so personally mate. My views aren't an attack on you.

josha1 · 06-12-2016 12:44PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Don't take things so personally mate. My views aren't an attack on you.

They do appear to be an attack on sanity though :P

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:45PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I assumed you were agreeing with steddyeddys "punishment" remark.

Maybe I picked you up wrong.

Don't take things so personally mate. My views aren't an attack on you.

I'm not taking it personally! ! It's a debate topic and I am responding! It's you who is taking personal grievance with the fact that private schools exist, using words like punishment and rewarding! If you can't respond on a forum without being accused of "taking something personally" what's the point of airing opinions???

steddyeddy · 06-12-2016 12:45PM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

No, the exact opposite in fact.

Steddyeddy was suggesting that the children in public schools didn't have a choice and were being punished. I stated that no child has a choice where they go to school, no matter what their background, as it's chosen by their parents.

I regret using the word punishment but trust me when I say that some schools are very hard to reach your potential in.

The Talking Bread · 06-12-2016 12:54PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

No, the exact opposite in fact.

Steddyeddy was suggesting that the children in public schools didn't have a choice and were being punished. I stated that no child has a choice where they go to school, no matter what their background, as it's chosen by their parents.

I regret using the word punishment but trust me when I say that some schools are very hard to reach your potential in.

That's fair enough but that is not due to the presence of private schools but the particular schools management. Teachers not being assessed and monitored, discipline administered wrong and just the general fact that some children from different backgrounds "can" develop behaviour wise differently and adopt to education and discipline differently.

steddyeddy · 07-12-2016 01:17PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

That's fair enough but that is not due to the presence of private schools but the particular schools management.

I briefly went to a private summer school. I don't want to get rid of them but I believe the fact that there is a two tier education system makes it less likely for poor people to reach their potential.

My public school life consisted of teachers tell us "working class people don't want education" and a science teacher who said girls don't do as well in science because of upbringing. No girl in my class went on to be a scientist yet some of my female friends love science and would be great at it. I still hear those prejudices today. So yes some schools can be terrible and that's going to influence a child's career. I was encouraged to go to college at home by my mother but when I got to school not one teacher mentioned it.

What compounds the matter is the fact that the kids in the very worst schools are competing with those at the very top. That makes things even harder for poorer people because the demand for high points course increase the points of those course. You have roughly two sub sets of people learning under completely different conditions and taking the same test. This means it's not a true measure of ability. According to the Irish Times there are only 50 private schools out of 700 in Ireland, yet those 50 are now dominating the high points courses. When I was a PhD student I taught students from these backgrounds. They expect education, which is something I would encourage poorer students to do, but, as a result some of them weren't right for it. Part of the problem with these schools is they only tell people to go to college. They don't suggest apprenticeships and as a result they end up in a course they couldn't handle.

I used to give grinds to students at an inner city school. It was soul crushing because the students were no less smart than the rich suburbanite children. Some were intensely bright, worldwise, and cynical beyond their years but the problems that were stacked against them were absurd. The exact opposite of a meritocracy. It was sickening and actually turned me into the rabid socialist I am today.

In fact we know that bright poor kids do worse than less bright richer kids.

Teachers not being assessed and monitored, discipline administered wrong and just the general fact that some children from different backgrounds "can" develop behaviour wise differently and adopt to education and discipline differently.

I could go around my old school today and improve it 100% if I was allowed to fire some of the "teachers" that worked there.

The Talking Bread · 07-12-2016 01:25PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I briefly went to a private summer school. I don't want to get rid of them but I believe the fact that there is a two tier education system makes it less likely for poor people to reach their potential.

My public school life consisted of teachers tell us "working class people don't want education" and a science teacher who said girls don't do as well in science because of upbringing. No girl in my class went on to be a scientist yet some of my female friends love science and would be great at it. I still hear those prejudices today. So yes some schools can be terrible and that's going to influence a child's career. I was encouraged to go to college at home by my mother but when I got to school not one teacher mentioned it.

.

You clearly went to a school that is out of the norm of most public schools to be fair. You cannot generalise public schools using those extreme individual examples.

Choose not to answer this but what period of time did you attend school:? And what sort of school was it, ie CBS etc

The Talking Bread · 07-12-2016 01:33PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I

What compounds the matter is the fact that the kids in the very worst schools are competing with those at the very top. That makes things even harder for poorer people because the demand for high points course increase the points of those course. You have roughly two sub sets of people learning under completely different conditions and taking the same test. This means it's not a true measure of ability. According to the Irish Times there are only 50 private schools out of 700 in Ireland, yet those 50 are now dominating the high points courses. When I was a PhD student I taught students from these backgrounds. They expect education, which is something I would encourage poorer students to do, but, as a result some of them weren't right for it. Part of the problem with these schools is they only tell people to go to college. They don't suggest apprenticeships and as a result they end up in a course they couldn't handle.

I used to give grinds to students at an inner city school. It was soul crushing because the students were no less smart than the rich suburbanite children. Some were intensely bright, worldwise, and cynical beyond their years but the problems that were stacked against them were absurd. The exact opposite of a meritocracy. It was sickening and actually turned me into the rabid socialist I am today.

In fact we know that bright poor kids do worse than less bright richer kids.

I could go around my old school today and improve it 100% if I was allowed to fire some of the "teachers" that worked there.

Also your generic use of "poorer" students of public schools to highlight your issues with private schools is pretty ridiculous. I a not sure the point you are making there.

Should Private Schools be Closed?

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