How do you define someone who is Irish? (multiple choice poll)

Solomon Pleasant · 06-12-2016 04:43PM

Parachutes wrote: »

There is nothing controversial about my post. I could be born in Dublin and have Irish parents but consider myself Russian, doesn't make me so.

If you are born on any part of Ireland you are Irish by definition even if you claim you're not due to political beliefs. Similarly, if you are born in Scotland, you are Scottish (as well as being British) whether you like it or not.

Yes that's literally what I've been repeating again and again. If you're born in Ireland, then you're Irish, I think the only difference now is the Northern Ireland issue. I consider that to not be Ireland (which it isn't, it's the UK) and I think you may be of a different opinion.

Parachutes · 06-12-2016 04:45PM

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Yes that's literally what I've been repeating again and again. If you're born in Ireland, then you're Irish, I think the only difference now is the Northern Ireland issue. I consider that to not be Ireland (which it isn't, it's the UK) and I think you may be of a different opinion.

But it is Ireland, regardless what state it is technically located in.

I think you're mixing up the concept of the nation state and simply geography.

Mortpourvelo · 06-12-2016 05:12PM

Parachutes wrote: »

There is nothing controversial about my post. I could be born in Dublin and have Irish parents but consider myself Russian, doesn't make me so.

If you are born on any part of Ireland you are Irish by definition even if you claim you're not due to political beliefs. Similarly, if you are born in Scotland, you are Scottish (as well as being British) whether you like it or not.

I don't "consider myself Irish".

I just am. I have the lineage, the heritage, the love of country, the residence, the passport, the citizenship - just not the birth.

But then as the Duke of Wellington said (admittedly for the opposite argument), "If I was born in a stable, it wouldn't make me a horse!

AnGaelach · 06-12-2016 05:18PM

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

This example is an extremely divided and controversial one. Maybe people born in the north consider themselves to be English, others Irish. My initial point relating to your nationality being based on your place of birth is still widely accurate and the little issue of Northern Ireland is perhaps one area where people have a small, somewhat point in arguing it. The fact is that a lot of people from the 6 counties aren't entirely sure if their nationality and neither, it seems, are the people on the other side of the border.

Never heard a Unionist call themselves English... Ulster-Scots or British definitely, but I've yet to hear them say English.

NoFreeGaffs · 07-12-2016 10:00PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

I don't "consider myself Irish".

I just am. I have the lineage, the heritage, the love of country, the residence, the passport, the citizenship - just not the birth.

But then as the Duke of Wellington said (admittedly for the opposite argument), "If I was born in a stable, it wouldn't make me a horse!

You were born and raised in the UK to parents born and raised in the UK. You're the definition of a plastic Paddy.

And Wellington never said that.

NoFreeGaffs · 07-12-2016 10:02PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Go on then, what's your source on that? It's not the Constitution anyway.

Our citizenship laws.

If you're born and raised abroad to parents born and raised abroad then you're not in anyway Irish. Just another plastic that managed to get their hands on an Irish passport.

We should really change our very generous citizenship by descent laws.

NoFreeGaffs · 07-12-2016 10:07PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Look, how it works (and don't shout me down because this is my actual life):

Generations going back all from Ireland. All born here.

Grandfather had to emigrate for work at 22.

Worked his bollocks off for 29 years in America - all the prejudiuce you've heard of "no Irish need apply" etc. All true, but he persevered.

Comes back. Meets an Irish woman who similarly had come to UK for work.

Marries her. Brings up all the children as Irish, not a drop of British blood there, no love for the flag etc etc.

All hold Irish passports and citizenship as is the right given to my grandparents as Irish born citizens.

One of these - my dad - marries a Scottish girl. Still Celtic! But the first drop of non-Irish blood in the family.

I am an Irish citizen, not just because I paid a few quid and got a passport out of convenience.

I believe in the country, the history, the heritage and for the last decade or so - by paying taxes and contributing.

For posters to say I'm not Irish is a level of fascism that not even Nick Griffin would employ.

Shame on you.

You were born and raised in the UK to parents who were born and raised in the UK.

You are not Irish.

You Brits are starting this nonsense now, just like the yanks before you.

Our citizenship by descent laws need to be changed. You people who desperately want to lay claim on our identity need to be cut off. Not given citizenship by descent. Collect four tokens from a lucky charms box and get citizenship!

There is nothing fascist about saying that some plastic born and raised abroad to parents born and raised abroad is not Irish.

It's hilarious that you don't get this. But plastic Paddy's claiming to be as Irish as the natives born and raised here, never really did make much sense. If grandchildren of Irish immigrants have an identity crisis, that's their problem.

NoFreeGaffs · 07-12-2016 10:10PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

He's wrong.

It's:

Grandparent MUST be born in Ireland
Parent ENTITLED to hold Irish passport
Grandchild (moi) ENTITLED to "Foreign Born Citizenship".

There it ends. My children are not entitled to Irish citizenship.

Unless they're born here (and it's moot as I don't have/want any!)

I'm not wrong.

Section D on the table half way down on the page.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

NoFreeGaffs · 07-12-2016 10:11PM

seamus wrote: »

You don't get to arbitrarily decide what makes someone "Irish".

Without the constitution, "Irish" doesn't actually exist except as a romantic concept like Semites, Kurds, Celts or Geordies.

So Irish people didn't exist until the 1920s?

Hahahahahaha.

super_furry · 07-12-2016 10:17PM

Are you an Irish citizen? If so, you're Irish. Simple.

MadDog76 · 08-12-2016 12:59AM

super_furry wrote: »

Are you an Irish citizen? If so, you're Irish. Simple.

Simple is the perfect word to use regarding that kind of logic .........

8-10 · 08-12-2016 06:13AM

NoFreeGaffs wrote: »

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Look, how it works (and don't shout me down because this is my actual life):

Generations going back all from Ireland. All born here.

Grandfather had to emigrate for work at 22.

Worked his bollocks off for 29 years in America - all the prejudiuce you've heard of "no Irish need apply" etc. All true, but he persevered.

Comes back. Meets an Irish woman who similarly had come to UK for work.

Marries her. Brings up all the children as Irish, not a drop of British blood there, no love for the flag etc etc.

All hold Irish passports and citizenship as is the right given to my grandparents as Irish born citizens.

One of these - my dad - marries a Scottish girl. Still Celtic! But the first drop of non-Irish blood in the family.

I am an Irish citizen, not just because I paid a few quid and got a passport out of convenience.

I believe in the country, the history, the heritage and for the last decade or so - by paying taxes and contributing.

For posters to say I'm not Irish is a level of fascism that not even Nick Griffin would employ.

Shame on you.

You were born and raised in the UK to parents who were born and raised in the UK.

You are not Irish.

You Brits are starting this nonsense now, just like the yanks before you.

Our citizenship by descent laws need to be changed. You people who desperately want to lay claim on our identity need to be cut off. Not given citizenship by descent. Collect four tokens from a lucky charms box and get citizenship!

There is nothing fascist about saying that some plastic born and raised abroad to parents born and raised abroad is not Irish.

It's hilarious that you don't get this. But plastic Paddy's claiming to be as Irish as the natives born and raised here, never really did make much sense. If grandchildren of Irish immigrants have an identity crisis, that's their problem.

I'd love you to go back in time and tell Bobby Sands that he's a Brit to his face. Or Michael Collins, see how you get on with him.

Or your great grandparents who were born in the UK. Or their parents and their parents and so on, because we're all descendants of Brits in your view. We're actually only Irish now because a bunch of Brits decided to break away, right?

What's hilarious is that you seem to think citizenship by descent is just an Irish thing and not something that, you know, EVERY other country also has provision for.

You need to get over yourself and stop lecturing people on points that are contary to law and public opinion just because YOUR opinion is that the law is completely wrong.

SharpshooterTom · 08-12-2016 06:32AM

This thread's still going?

When I first started it I honestly was never expecting 500+ posts and 35 pages, I'm not sure what you're all arguing over mind, I'M IRISH - NO YOU'RE NOT - YES I AM!!1!!1!

We appear to have gone round in circles an awful lot in the last 10 pages or so with this stuff. Some very sensitive people here.

NoFreeGaffs · 08-12-2016 08:46AM

8-10 wrote: »

I'd love you to go back in time and tell Bobby Sands that he's a Brit to his face. Or Michael Collins, see how you get on with him.

Or your great grandparents who were born in the UK. Or their parents and their parents and so on, because we're all descendants of Brits in your view. We're actually only Irish now because a bunch of Brits decided to break away, right?

What's hilarious is that you seem to think citizenship by descent is just an Irish thing and not something that, you know, EVERY other country also has provision for.

You need to get over yourself and stop lecturing people on points that are contary to law and public opinion just because YOUR opinion is that the law is completely wrong.

Collins and Sands were born and raised on the island of Ireland to Irish parents. Of course they were Irish. I never said differently.

But someone born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised, is not Irish.

And no, not every country gives out citizenship to people who had a grandparent or great grandparent from there. The UK, for example, doesn't. If you look through the 28 EU member states citizenship by descent laws, none of the prosperous member states do. Basically the **** tier member states are the only ones that do. We are not in good company and need to change our laws.

What do you mean by public opinion? If we had a referendum on whether or not we give citizenship to plastics, it would go like the last citizenship referendum. Lads walking around saying they're Irish because they had a grandparent or great grandparent from here are looked upon as utter jokes. Hence the term "plastic Paddy."

The Brits and the yanks are now using us as an EU passport farm due to Brexit and Trump winning the presidency. Cut them off. If they want to visit and explore their ancestry, that's fine. But don't give them passports and have them claim that they're actually Irish.

HellSquirrel · 08-12-2016 09:18AM

Good gods, you're obsessed, NoFreeGaffs. Did a British person kick your cat or something?

And, as always, it depends. There's very few cases that are absolutely cut and dry and -yes-, actual personal choice does count for something. Barring the most direct route - being born in Ireland to Irish parents - you have to choose to take up your right to citizenship or not. If you do, you are Irish. If you don't, you're not.

Say two Chinese couples moved to Ireland. Couple A have a child and then move back to China. Their child was born in Ireland and, assuming the couple were here for several years first, the child has the right to be considered Irish. However, given the kid was raised in China by Chinese parents, they probably would have no interest in it and would consider themselves Chinese and would seek out all the paperwork to ensure they're legally Chinese too. Much like one of my siblings was born in Africa to European parents and came back to Ireland with them at a very young age. Sure, he was born in Africa, but that has no bearing on his subsequent life or upbringing and it's merely an unusual fact about him rather than any part of his identity.

Couple B, having moved here at the same time, also have a child, and they settle in Ireland and bring up their child there. The kid grows up speaking English and Irish, goes through the Irish schooling system, and is steeped in Irish culture. They consider themselves Irish and, by their rights of birth and that their parents were settled here for a time before their birth, plus claims to citizenship and the general paperwork; they are Irish and no-one has the right to insist that they're not (or no-one has the right to be -correct- in insisting that they're not. They can bollock on all they like about how white and genetically related to the O Neill the kid has to be, but they're talking out of their holes.

8-10 · 08-12-2016 09:40AM

I don't think any logic or scenario is going to change his mind tbh

Mortpourvelo · 08-12-2016 09:44AM

NoFreeGaffs wrote: »

Collins and Sands were born and raised on the island of Ireland to Irish parents. Of course they were Irish. I never said differently.

But someone born and raised abroad, to parents born and raised, is not Irish.

And no, not every country gives out citizenship to people who had a grandparent or great grandparent from there. The UK, for example, doesn't. If you look through the 28 EU member states citizenship by descent laws, none of the prosperous member states do. Basically the **** tier member states are the only ones that do. We are not in good company and need to change our laws.

What do you mean by public opinion? If we had a referendum on whether or not we give citizenship to plastics, it would go like the last citizenship referendum. Lads walking around saying they're Irish because they had a grandparent or great grandparent from here are looked upon as utter jokes. Hence the term "plastic Paddy."

The Brits and the yanks are now using us as an EU passport farm due to Brexit and Trump winning the presidency. Cut them off. If they want to visit and explore their ancestry, that's fine. But don't give them passports and have them claim that they're actually Irish.

Idiot.

I've had my passport for decades since I could apply for one - fk all to do with Trump and Brexit. Tosser.

Mortpourvelo · 08-12-2016 09:45AM

8-10 wrote: »

I don't think any logic or scenario is going to change his mind tbh

I've been called some things in my time but "you Brits" ???

Jesus.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2016 09:47AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

This thread's still going?

When I first started it I honestly was never expecting 500+ posts and 35 pages, I'm not sure what you're all arguing over mind, I'M IRISH - NO YOU'RE NOT - YES I AM!!1!!1!

We appear to have gone round in circles an awful lot in the last 10 pages or so with this stuff. Some very sensitive people here.

I still don't understand the question with the positive and negative. My head hurts.

How do you define something that is or isn't that thing?
Every answer is correct (unless there's a ' none of the above ' option).

HellSquirrel · 08-12-2016 09:49AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I still don't understand the question with the positive and negative. My head hurts.

How do you define something that is or isn't that thing?
Every answer is correct (unless there's a ' none of the above ' option).

Er, if I understand that correctly, no they're not. Opinions might be given equal weighting, but facts vs nonfacts don't deserve it. NoFreeGaffs is talking out of his orifice with some artificially narrow definition of what s/he considers Irish and is demanding that people listen to it against logic, reason and the law.

His answer may be his opinion, but that doesn't mean that anyone -he- decides isn't Irish isn't.

SharpshooterTom · 08-12-2016 09:56AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I still don't understand the question with the positive and negative. My head hurts.

How do you define something that is or isn't that thing?
Every answer is correct (unless there's a ' none of the above ' option).

Yeah I apologise I made a mistake with the poll, I copied the thread title into the question and its confusing everyone.

It should be How do you do define someone who IS Irish?

I hate having to come in every couple of pages having to explain this (but its my fault of course).

HellSquirrel · 08-12-2016 01:55PM

Ooh, sorry, Gebgbegb, I totally misunderstood your post.

Maximus Alexander · 08-12-2016 03:08PM

You have to have only Irish ancestors for how ever many generations I have them. And be born in Ireland. And live in Ireland all your life. And never even leave for a holiday. And speak only the native tongue, never uttering a word of that Tan cant. And have a shileleagh up your arse and a set of uilleann pipes under your arm, while chain skulling pints of stout.

There are only 3 Irish people.

evolving_doors · 08-12-2016 04:33PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Ooh, sorry, Gebgbegb, I totally misunderstood your post.

HA I was starting to agree with your response till I scrolled down and saw this.

08-12-2016 04:36PM

I'm really surprised that 40% think "Born and brought up abroad to Irish parents" makes someone Irish. Apparently my American cousins are Irish then. They aren't Irish at all. Culturally and socially there is no difference between them and any other American teenager. I think your nationality is defined by where you grew up.

Well I suppose 12% of people don't think that "Born and/or brought up in Ireland to Irish parent(s)" makes you Irish so I shouldn't take this so seriously.

SharpshooterTom · 08-12-2016 06:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm really surprised that 40% think "Born and brought up abroad to Irish parents" makes someone Irish. Apparently my American cousins are Irish then. They aren't Irish at all. Culturally and socially there is no difference between them and any other American teenager. I think your nationality is defined by where you grew up.

People have different opinions on this and its not straightforward.

I was born and brought in England to Irish parents, but if I were tell actual English people my parents are Irish, some of them wouldn't see me as properly English, infact a lot of them wouldn't see me as English at all. So in many ways to some I'd just be another foreigner there, and to be honest I would regard myself as one if I'm being honest, since I not properly British.

If I were to put a poll up on a UK forum asking what do you consider someone born and brought up in England to Irish parents would be, British/English or Irish? I guarantee you a large minority at the very least would view me as Irish (i.e. a foreigner) because I don't have British ancestry/heritage.

Now we've already seen from the poll that a very large minority (just under half) of Irish people don't consider someone with foreign parents born and brought up here as Irish. So, we've got to assume that those percentages might be similar in England and thus I wouldn't be English under that definition obviously.

I have always argued that a protestant from Northern Ireland is more British than a 2G Irish person in England, because their entire backgrounds/ancestry and heritage are British. I live in NI right now and that's how I personally feel about it. I would personally view protestant from NI as more British than me for sure.

Honestly I would say its probably much easier to be born to Irish parents in the US than it is to be born to Irish parents in another European country where ancestry plays a huge role (unfortunately) in determining someone's nationality, as illustrated by some of the users articulating this in this thread.

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I suppose 12% of people don't think that "Born and/or brought up in Ireland to Irish parent(s)" makes you Irish so I shouldn't take this so seriously.

The poll is mostly accurate. We have 45 users out of nearly 400 who have voted incorrectly, but over 350 out of 400 have voted the right way (assuming that first option should be or very near 100%, because you always get a few who mess about). I would say that most of the 155 votes who have voted for that option are genuine, but not all as some have been negatively voting (voting for who isn't Irish), so you would have to shave a few percentage points off, but that still leave around a third of people who consider people born and bred to Irish parents abroad as Irish, which to me still sounds too high, but given the tolerance for English born players in the Irish football teams over the years perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised. :pac:

08-12-2016 06:15PM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

People have different opinions on this and its not straightforward.

I was born and brought in England to Irish parents, but if I were tell actual English people my parents are Irish, some of them wouldn't see me as properly English, infact a lot of them wouldn't see me as English at all. So in many ways to some I'd just be another foreigner there, and to be honest I would regard myself as one if I'm being honest, since I not properly British.

If I were to put a poll up on a UK forum asking what do you consider someone born and brought up in England to Irish parents would be, British/English or Irish? I guarantee you a large minority at the very least would view me as Irish (i.e. a foreigner) because I don't have British ancestry/heritage.

Now we've already seen from the poll that a very large minority (just under half) of Irish people don't consider someone with foreign parents born and brought up here as Irish. So, we've got to assume that those percentages might be similar in England and thus I wouldn't be English under that definition obviously.

I have always argued that a protestant from Northern Ireland is more British than a 2G Irish person in England, because their entire backgrounds/ancestry and heritage are British. I live in NI right now and that's how I personally feel about it. I would personally view protestant from NI as more British than me for sure.

Honestly I would say its probably much easier to be born to Irish parents in the US than it is to be born to Irish parents in another European country where ancestry plays a huge role (unfortunately) in determining someone's nationality, as illustrated by some of the users articulating this in this thread.

The poll is mostly accurate. We have 45 users out of nearly 400 who have voted incorrectly, but over 350 out of 400 have voted the right way (assuming that first option should be or very near 100%, because you always get a few who mess about). I would say that most of the 155 votes who have voted for that option are genuine, but not all as some have been negatively voting (voting for who isn't Irish), so you would have to shave a few percentage points off, but that still leave around a third of people who consider people born and bred to Irish parents abroad as Irish, which to me still sounds too high, but given the tolerance for English born players in the Irish football teams over the years perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised. :pac:

If you don't mention that your parents are Irish, where do people think you are from?

SharpshooterTom · 08-12-2016 06:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If you don't mention that your parents are Irish, where do people think you are from?

Yeah "if I don't mention" that my parents are Irish, but if I'm truly am to be considered English with no problems then I shouldn't have to be hiding the fact that my parents are Irish in the first place.

Junkyard Tom · 08-12-2016 07:02PM

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

I've been called some things in my time but "you Brits"

You really shouldn't care for the opinion of someone like that.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think your nationality is defined by where you grew up.

I don't think so. People can grow up with Irish parents in other countries and consider themselves Irish and who are we to tell them they're not?

Heck do you really need to have Irish parents?

"You’d swear he was born and raised in Limerick now, he loves the place and he’s really passionate about Munster and extremely passionate about playing for Ireland," Earls told the Irish Independent. "He was in tears in the huddle and that motivates you to show what it means — when you see the reaction for another man to come in from another country to put on our jersey. He’s delighted with the way Irish people have taken to him and he wants to repay them."

Keith Earls on CJ Stander.

0ph0rce0 · 08-12-2016 11:18PM

Skommando wrote: »

Not really.

Are Irish Citizens not Irish ?

I have this clown in work who just became an Irish Citizen, Polish guy. Came in saying he's Irish now.

Go waaaaay outta tha ya thick your Polish not Irish.

How do you define someone who is Irish? (multiple choice poll)

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