Should Private Schools be Closed?

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 03:18PM

BoatMad wrote: »

clearly its not sexual assault , its also clearly " threatening sexual assault ", however if we jailed teenage boys everytime they mentioned potential sexual assault " Do that jimmy, or you'll have a boot in your ar$e" etc, jails would be packed . The issue is one of bullying and from all accounts the schools aptly promptly and appropriately.

You do realise that threats of sexual assault is legally sexual assault. If you don't, you do know.

Obviously the extent of the threat, the seriousness of it and the context as to whether the recipient of the threat genuinely believed it or had reasonable reason to believe it to be a "real threat" comes into play. But that is a separate matter. But a "threat" of assault falls under the legal basis of assault.

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:22PM

Yes I agree with you. As I said they school a child's sent to will make a huge difference to his/her learning.

Ask any teacher, The primary motivating factor in kids ( and their schools ) doing well is the parental influences on children. Kids that come from backgrounds, where learning is valued, where acquired knowledge is valued, and where parents make an effort to help their kids acquired such skills, ( and pressure them from time to time) do well. If these kids are in the majority in a school, the school does well. The standard of the treaching is almost irrelevant.

ireland shows that private schools are not a gateway to better learning or a gateway to worse learning, you can achieve the same thing in the public or charter-style schooling systems once the parental resolve is there. Closing private schools would have no impact one way of the other on the results. We live in a society where wealth buys you things, that applies to all levels, I see no reason why private schools shouldn't exist in that regard. what would be problematic , would be if private schools were consistently at the top of all educational attainments to the detriment of other schools, but there is no evidence of that . Criticism often just boiled down to simple begrudery

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:29PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

You do realise that threats of sexual assault is legally sexual assault. If you don't, you do know.

Obviously the extent of the threat, the seriousness of it and the context as to whether the recipient of the threat genuinely believed it or had reasonable reason to believe it to be a "real threat" comes into play. But that is a separate matter. But a "threat" of assault falls under the legal basis of assault.

I believe that is not the case in all cases, its up to a court to decide

I refer to http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Policy%20on%20the%20Investigation%20of%20Sexual%20Crime,%20Crimes%20Against%20Children%20and%20Child%20Welfare%202014%2002%2024%20HQ%20Dir%2048%2013.pdf for reference

"Threatening a person with a view to coercing them into performing some indecent/sexual act may also constitute a sexual or indecent assault.

However, where words alone are used they may not constitute an assault unless accompanied by some overt act or gesture. Any threat must raise in the mind of the victim a fear of immediate and unlawful personal violence."
( my underlines )

Im not condoning the actions that happened, but to listen to the media , you d think he had been raped by them all. If the case is brought to court , it will be up to a judge to decide what the severity of the punishment and no doubt upto the DPP to decide what exact charges to bring

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 03:29PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

You do realise that threats of sexual assault is legally sexual assault. If you don't, you do know.

Obviously the extent of the threat, the seriousness of it and the context as to whether the recipient of the threat genuinely believed it or had reasonable reason to believe it to be a "real threat" comes into play. But that is a separate matter. But a "threat" of assault falls under the legal basis of assault.

and even stripping someone naked against their will in a threatening situation is sexual assault, no matter how you (no pun intended) dress it up. The hockey situatation in this case didnt even need to be factored in. T

Glenster · 05-12-2016 03:32PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It might be a boarding school thing as I was never stripped and threatened with sexual assault.

I'm not sure if I was ever stripped, we used to streak a lot, get naked at the drop of a hat.

Its probably just me, but if I was that little lad I probably would have been a little scared when it happened, but I would have never for a second thought that anyone would bum me with a hockey stick.

Its like an initiation.....

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 03:32PM

BoatMad wrote: »

I believe that is not the case in all cases, its up to a court to decide

I refer to http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Policy%20on%20the%20Investigation%20of%20Sexual%20Crime,%20Crimes%20Against%20Children%20and%20Child%20Welfare%202014%2002%2024%20HQ%20Dir%2048%2013.pdf for reference

"Threatening a person with a view to coercing them into performing some indecent/sexual act may also constitute a sexual or indecent assault.

However, where words alone are used they may not constitute an assault unless accompanied by some overt act or gesture. Any threat must raise in the mind of the victim a fear of immediate and unlawful personal violence."
( my underlines )

Im not condoning the actions that happened, but to listen to the media , you d think he had been raped by them all.

Hence, sexual assault in this case. There isn't a doubt that this is sexual assault. I can't believe people can't acknowledge that. Put into the context of a girl or even a woman being the victim here.

Just because they are kids, probably hetrosexual (presumption), doesn't take away anything from the context here.

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 03:35PM

Glenster wrote: »

I'm not sure if I was ever stripped, we used to streak a lot, get naked at the drop of a hat.

Its probably just me, but if I was that little lad I probably would have been a little scared when it happened, but I would have never for a second thought that anyone would bum me with a hockey stick.

Its like an initiation.....

so why the fk did he fight then!! And put himself in physical or even punitive danger!!

Jesus! People are answering there own questions by attempting to negate it as a sexual assault!

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:35PM

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Hence, sexual assault in this case. There isn't a doubt that this is sexual assault. I can't believe people can't acknowledge that. Put into the context of a girl or even a woman being the victim here.

Just because they are kids, probably hetrosexual (presumption), doesn't take away anything from the context here.

I am very leery of acting as judge jury and executioner here , as the media seem to want to be. I accept that a serious incident occurred , as to what actual statues were broken and the exact nature of the crimes committed, Im happy to leave that to the authorities

Whats clear is the school acted promptly and appropriately in my view and that is in comparison with other incidences in our past where inordinate delays occurred ( or never was reported )

05-12-2016 03:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It might be a boarding school thing as I was never stripped and threatened with sexual assault.

What? It never happened you, so its a boarding school thing?

No, it's not a 'boarding school thing'. It's a scumbag thing. It could have happened in a day school behind the bikes after GAA practice, or in the toilets during break.

I went to boarding school and was never stripped or threatened with sexual assault.

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:40PM

No, it's not a 'boarding school thing'. It's a scumbag thing. It could have happened in a day school behind the bikes after GAA practice, or in the toilets during break.

+1, in reality nothing to do with the type of school and I suspect we only know about it because preciously in happened in a well managed school as opposed to the back of the GAA pitch or some random field or something

whats incredible of course , is the self incriminating nature of mobile phone pictures.

Glenster · 05-12-2016 03:46PM

Candie wrote: »

What? It never happened you, so its a boarding school thing?

No, it's not a 'boarding school thing'. It's a scumbag thing. It could have happened in a day school behind the bikes after GAA practice, or in the toilets during break.

I went to boarding school and was never stripped or threatened with sexual assault.

Here, there's a real holier than thou attitude here.

I don't know if people don't remember their childhoods, or what.

I know that I drank and smoked and fought and did a drug or two (in my late teens), was bullied, did some bullying, pulled pranks, snuck out of school at night to go to parties and see girls, maybe threw an empty bottle on the ground, got off with a girl who was hammered (When I was a teenager and also hammered).

I'm not proud of it, just realistic. An article in the Irish times about any of those things would look bad.

The event could have been as dark as it is described in the Irish Times, but it could easily have not been and leading with the story as some kind of sexual abuse story seems irresponsible.

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:48PM

I know that I drank and smoked and fought and did a drug or two (in my late teens), was bullied, did some bullying, pulled pranks, snuck out of school at night to go to parties and see girls, maybe threw an empty bottle on the ground, got off with a girl who was hammered (When I was a teenager and also hammered).

I'm not proud of it, just realistic. An article in the Irish times about any of those things would look bad.

while this is true, it doesnt change the fact that many of these thing you did are or could be viewed as unlawful and hence the subject of reporting and prosecution

05-12-2016 03:50PM

Glenster wrote: »

Here, there's a real holier than thou attitude here.

I don't know if people don't remember their childhoods, or what.

I know that I drank and smoked and fought and did a drug or two (in my late teens), was bullied, did some bullying, pulled pranks, snuck out of school at night to go to parties and see girls, maybe threw an empty bottle on the ground, got off with a girl who was hammered (When I was a teenager and also hammered).

I'm not proud of it, just realistic. An article in the Irish times about any of those things would look bad.

The event could have been as dark as it is described in the Irish Times, but it could easily have not been and leading with the story as some kind of sexual abuse story seems irresponsible.

It's not holier than thou to point out that very few kids threaten each other with sexual assault. There's a difference between sneaking out and threatening to insert a hockey stick in a kids anus.

Stripping a kid and threatening to put a stick in him is a sexual assault. No matter what anyone else has done and no matter how you frame it. If I was stripped, held down, and threatened with rape with an object, there's no way thats not sexual assault.

I don't see what anyone has to gain by downplaying this incident, it shouldn't have happened and I'm sure the kid is traumatised by it.

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 03:51PM

Glenster wrote: »

Here, there's a real holier than thou attitude here.

I don't know if people don't remember their childhoods, or what.

I know that I drank and smoked and fought and did a drug or two (in my late teens), was bullied, did some bullying, pulled pranks, snuck out of school at night to go to parties and see girls, maybe threw an empty bottle on the ground, got off with a girl who was hammered (When I was a teenager and also hammered).

I'm not proud of it, just realistic. An article in the Irish times about any of those things would look bad.

The event could have been as dark as it is described in the Irish Times, but it could easily have not been and leading with the story as some kind of sexual abuse story seems irresponsible.

Doesn't demerit the actual context of the assault though!. Fair enough if the kid acknowledged it wasn't a serious threat but that is simply considerations to be taken into account in the aftermath.

I think people are focusing too much on the "laddishness" of the situation!

Would yo do that to a girl! Obviously not!

osarusan · 05-12-2016 03:52PM

Glenster wrote: »

Its probably just me, but if I was that little lad I probably would have been a little scared when it happened, but I would have never for a second thought that anyone would bum me with a hockey stick.

The fact that the boy chose to fight would suggest that he took the threat of sexual assault seriously. Would you agree?

steddyeddy · 05-12-2016 03:52PM

Candie wrote: »

What? It never happened you, so its a boarding school thing?

No, it's not a 'boarding school thing'. It's a scumbag thing. It could have happened in a day school behind the bikes after GAA practice, or in the toilets during break.

I went to boarding school and was never stripped or threatened with sexual assault.

Well tell that to the self proclaimed boarders who are trivializing is. I think it's a scumbag thing to do.

steddyeddy · 05-12-2016 03:52PM

osarusan wrote: »

The fact that the boy chose to fight would suggest that he took the threat seriously. Would you agree?

On top of the fact he was threatened with sexual assault if he didn't fight.

steddyeddy · 05-12-2016 03:53PM

BoatMad wrote: »

+1, in reality nothing to do with the type of school and I suspect we only know about it because preciously in happened in a well managed school as opposed to the back of the GAA pitch or some random field or something

whats incredible of course , is the self incriminating nature of mobile phone pictures.

No it's not.

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:55PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

On top of the fact he was threatened with sexual assault if he didn't fight.

well the group dynamics amongst a group of boys is a very complex thing, we dont really know the story. boys threaten each other with " sexual violence" every day or have you not listened to their conversations recently

Again, a serious incident occurred, the school acted promptly and the rest is for the authorities to decide. we weren't there , and we dont really know what actually happened.

BoatMad · 05-12-2016 03:56PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

No it's not.

no its not what , self incriminating ?, it is if any of this were party to the acts or urged on those acts

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 04:00PM

BoatMad wrote: »

well the group dynamics amongst a group of boys is a very complex thing, we dont really know the story. boys threaten each other with " sexual violence" every day or have you not listened to their conversations recently

Again, a serious incident occurred, the school acted promptly and the rest is for the authorities to decide. we weren't there , and we dont really know what actually happened.

you could apply that to every single assault situation. A threat of sexual non consensual assault which is reasonably believed to be impending by the recipient of the threat is sexual assault.

FIN.

Again, you are focusing too much on the laddishness and age profile of the situation.

Glenster · 05-12-2016 04:04PM

BoatMad wrote: »

while this is true, it doesnt change the fact that many of these thing you did are or could be viewed as unlawful and hence the subject of reporting and prosecution

See, that's the attitude I'm talking about.

People act as though kids should be doing their homework and playing with a cup and ball and then spending all Sunday praying.

Is there not some grey area for kids? If two ten year olds get into a fight I don't think it should be treated like when two adults get into a fight.

When someone gets pantsed in school I don't think that's the same as sexual assault.

When a teenager threatens to shove his foot up someone elses ar*e I don't think that's a sexual threat.

This shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but its a failing of supervision rather than anything particularly deviant from the kids.

CountingCrows · 05-12-2016 04:05PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Again, a serious incident occurred, the school acted promptly and the rest is for the authorities to decide.

:rolleyes:

05-12-2016 04:07PM

Glenster wrote: »

When a teenager threatens to shove his foot up someone elses ar*e I don't think that's a sexual threat.

It is if one kid has him immobilized while another one strips him and you put your foot to his anus and threaten him with penetration unless he fights, while 15 other kids are watching.

The whole thing is a lot more sinister than one kid telling another he'd shove his foot up anothers behind.

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 04:08PM

Glenster wrote: »

See, that's the attitude I'm talking about.

People act as though kids should be doing their homework and playing with a cup and ball and then spending all Sunday praying.

Is there not some grey area for kids? If two ten year olds get into a fight I don't think it should be treated like when two adults get into a fight.

When someone gets pantsed in school I don't think that's the same as sexual assault.

When a teenager threatens to shove his foot up someone elses ar*e I don't think that's a sexual threat.

This shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but its a failing of supervision rather than anything particularly deviant from the kids.

"You are only a kid, you have no reason to be traumatised. Get over it but if it happens when you are 17, we will take it serious........ Now lads, continue on you little rascals, he'll be grand!"

Glenster · 05-12-2016 04:08PM

Candie wrote: »

very few kids threaten each other with sexual assault.

If I was stripped, held down, and threatened with rape with an object, there's no way thats not sexual assault.

I don't see what anyone has to gain by downplaying this incident, it shouldn't have happened and I'm sure the kid is traumatised by it.

You have your head in the sand, they do it all the time.

If you were, yes, this is a different context though.

I don't submit my opinion to gain things, I just don't think framing this as a sexual assault is correct.

The Talking Bread · 05-12-2016 04:15PM

Glenster wrote: »

You have your head in the sand, they do it all the time.

If you were, yes, this is a different context though.

I don't submit my opinion to gain things, I just don't think framing this as a sexual assault is correct.

Put it into the context of adults then, or even university situation. Where do you promote it to sexual assault, definitively! What about the gender profiles! Does that allow it to fall into sexual assault bracket.

I just dont get the nature of the defence of a pretty obvious definitive situation here......

Punitively, that is a different matter. But definitively. It is sexual assault.

Jawgap · 05-12-2016 04:21PM

currants wrote: »

I disagree, forcibly removing his clothes and then threatening him with rape with an object is definitely sexual assault, in fact going by the link below if what has been reported is correct then it would come under aggravated sexual assault. These are teenagers, not little children who cant comprehend what they're doing. Interestingly there's a maximum 14 year sentence for under 17s. Not that any of these bullies will ever see a cell.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

A lot of schools try to minimise assaults on kids, especially when wealthy parents with easy access to big bucks barristers are involved. If that poor boy was my son I would have reported the incident to the Gardai, then Tusla. The ringleader (and there's always a ringleader)must be a right dangerous individual. That's a very disturbed child and this type of behaviour doesn't come from nowhere. If he was in the courts system at least he would be getting the treatment he needs, a teen who instigates this type of assault is clearly seriously mentally unwell. The rest of them should be expelled.

Disagree all you want, but as I said, the courts will decide, if it gets that far, not the internet on the basis of accounts published in the Irish Times.

Jawgap · 05-12-2016 04:28PM

Glenster wrote: »

See, that's the attitude I'm talking about.

People act as though kids should be doing their homework and playing with a cup and ball and then spending all Sunday praying.

Is there not some grey area for kids? If two ten year olds get into a fight I don't think it should be treated like when two adults get into a fight.

When someone gets pantsed in school I don't think that's the same as sexual assault.

When a teenager threatens to shove his foot up someone elses ar*e I don't think that's a sexual threat.

This shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but its a failing of supervision rather than anything particularly deviant from the kids.

There's an absolute world of difference between one person threatening to shove their boot or anything else up someone else's arse when that person is fully dressed and their arms are free to defend themselves and they have line of retreat......

......completely different - and much more sinister - when someone says it and the person is restrained, with their trousers down and the object they are being threaten with has been brandished and placed in contact with them.

The Draugan · 05-12-2016 04:36PM

Jawgap wrote: »

There's an absolute world of difference between one person threatening to shove their boot or anything else up someone else's arse when that person is fully dressed and their arms are free to defend themselves and they have line of retreat......

......completely different - and much more sinister - when someone says it and the person is restrained, with their trousers down and the object they are being threaten with has been brandished and placed in contact with them.

+1 world of difference between saying i'm going to put my boot up your arse etc in a scrap or whatever to pinning a lad to his bed pulling down his kacks and putting a hocky stick to his hole like that is just beyond fcuked up ... the kids who did that need a serious serious fking lesson , expulsion , criminal charges simple as.

No ones going to loose it too much over two young lads getting in a scrap or expects kids to conform to the 1950's vision of the world outlined in the other post , but what those lads did to that other kid was next level disturbed.

Should Private Schools be Closed?

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