Timber frame v block work wide cavity.

lolliedog · 01-12-2016 08:12PM #1

Planning to build soon and have to make up my mind on the type of construction. I am considering timber frame twin wall with cellulose insulation or block with wide cavity. Where I live 90% build in block. Very hard to make a decision both have advantages and disadvantages.

I have looked for threads on timber frame but they all appear to be old.

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Gumbo · 01-12-2016 08:28PM

Weigh up what you want with regards to BER and air tightness.
Then evaluate costs involved in both methods.

In a detached one off Build I would be happy with either method as long as costs and my expected outcome are met.

bertie 56 · 03-12-2016 10:37PM

lolliedog wrote: »

Planning to build soon and have to make up my mind on the type of construction. I am considering timber frame twin wall with cellulose insulation or block with wide cavity. Where I live 90% build in block. Very hard to make a decision both have advantages and disadvantages.

I have looked for threads on timber frame but they all appear to be old.

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Ask yourself this simple question :

Who in the world, is still using cavity walls nowadays ???

... You'll have the answer

...

Happy timber build !

Johnnyhpipe · 03-12-2016 11:00PM

In theory - both fine.

In reality - Based on personal experiences as a structural engineer - we don't have the timber frame construction expertise in this country when compared to Canada/US.

Of course there are plenty of specialist timber frame companies etc etc etc etc but the things I've seen when it comes to the guys on the ground...If I ever build my own house it certainly won't be timber frame.

I know many here will disagree.... so take your own view on it.

My friend just moved out of her rented timber frame semi-d house - sick of listening to the neighbours telly! Granted it was a celtic tiger era thrown together house...

lolliedog · 04-12-2016 10:55AM

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ask yourself this simple question :

Who in the world, is still using cavity walls nowadays ???

... You'll have the answer

Happy timber build !

Still very popular in Ireland.

me_right_one · 04-12-2016 11:34AM

I think this timber frame craze is insane! Concrete block is the only way IMO.

Calahonda52 · 04-12-2016 12:33PM

lolliedog wrote: »

...Very hard to make a decision both have advantages and disadvantages.

Thoughts on the above would be appreciated.

Your thoughts on the above would be appreciated also.

lolliedog · 04-12-2016 09:38PM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Your thoughts on the above would be appreciated also.

My views!!

Timber frame
Advantages

Precision factory controlled
Guaranteed airtightness
Minimising Cold bridges easier
Speed of construction
Ease of programming
Ease of running sevices

Disadvantages

No thermal mass
Sound transmission
Not conducive to conc floors
Hanging stuff/fixing to walls
Some insurance companies view as non standard const.

Block built advantages

Thermal mass
Concrete floors to reduce sound transmission
No issue with fixing to Walls
Less damages as a result of flooding
Builders have a better understanding
Insurance companies view as standard const
Perception

Disadvantages

Workmanship varies
Airtightnees can be difficult
Programming more difficult
Insulation often poorly fitted
Possibly slower
Builders not very clear on cold bridge detailing

There are just some issue that spring to mind, I'm sure I will think of more.

Gumbo · 04-12-2016 09:45PM

lolliedog wrote: »

My views!!

Timber frame
Advantages

Precision factory controlled
Guaranteed airtightness
Minimising Cold bridges easier
Speed of construction
Ease of programming
Ease of running sevices

Disadvantages

No thermal mass
Sound transmission
Not conducive to conc floors
Hanging stuff/fixing to walls
Some insurance companies view as non standard const.

Block built advantages

Thermal mass
Concrete floors to reduce sound transmission
No issue with fixing to Walls
Less damages as a result of flooding
Builders have a better understanding
Insurance companies view as standard const
Perception

Disadvantages

Workmanship varies
Airtightnees can be difficult
Programming more difficult
Insulation often poorly fitted
Possibly slower
Builders not very clear on cold bridge detailing

There are just some issue that spring to mind, I'm sure I will think of more.

Some of those are incorrect.
Insurance for example see timber frame as standard build as long as there's a brick or block outer skin.

Hanging items on wall is simple enough once you use the correct fixings or fix in the right place, exactly like a block house.
Sound transmission should be a non issue in a one off build. It's only when you are terraced in a timber frame that increased attention to detail with regards sound transmission needs to be perfect.

lolliedog · 04-12-2016 09:54PM

kceire wrote: »

Some of those are incorrect.
Insurance for example see timber frame as standard build as long as there's a brick or block outer skin.

Hanging items on wall is simple enough once you use the correct fixings or fix in the right place, exactly like a block house.
Sound transmission should be a non issue in a one off build. It's only when you are terraced in a timber frame that increased attention to detail with regards sound transmission needs to be perfect.

Having lived in various houses with timber upper floors and concrete and now with 4 young boys there is no comparison. Day and night.

Gumbo · 04-12-2016 10:52PM

lolliedog wrote: »

Having lived in various houses with timber upper floors and concrete and now with 4 young boys there is no comparison. Day and night.

Hang on, this is a different set up again.
Are you talking about concrete intermediate floors also? If so, then timber frame it completely out of the question and to b hinets, not an option.

lolliedog · 04-12-2016 11:10PM

kceire wrote: »

Hang on, this is a different set up again.
Are you talking about concrete intermediate floors also? If so, then timber frame it completely out of the question and to b hinets, not an option.

Not sure what you mean, just to clarify,

I lived in houses with timber upper floors and I lived in houses with concrete upper floors.

The concrete upper floors were excellent in reducing noise transmission..

BarneyMc · 04-12-2016 11:11PM

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ask yourself this simple question :

Who in the world, is still using cavity walls nowadays ???

... You'll have the answer ...

Happy timber build !

Lots.

Gumbo · 04-12-2016 11:29PM

lolliedog wrote: »

Not sure what you mean, just to clarify,

I lived in houses with timber upper floors and I lived in houses with concrete upper floors.

The concrete upper floors were excellent in reducing noise transmission..

Are you talking noise from an upstairs bedroom to downstairs?
Concrete floors will require concrete/block external walls so that rules out any form of timber frame.

Google "precast concrete floors" or hollow core slabs in houses.

mickdw · 04-12-2016 11:33PM

Timber frame can be designed for concrete screed first floor which if used with right floor finishes can be a very reasonable solution in terms of noise reduction etc.

lolliedog · 04-12-2016 11:58PM

kceire wrote: »

Are you talking noise from an upstairs bedroom to downstairs?
Concrete floors will require concrete/block external walls so that rules out any form of timber frame.

Google "precast concrete floors" or hollow core slabs in houses.

Yes,

I have built twice before both block built, one had concrete upper floors the other had timber upper floors.

Metric Tensor · 05-12-2016 10:03AM

Although there are always specifics and small but important variations I think for the uninitiated lolliedog's quick list is reasonable.

Of course there will always be differences - every build is bespoke - but in broad strokes I think a fair picture has been painted.

Calahonda52 · 05-12-2016 01:26PM

This thread also shows that its not as simple as just T/F vs B/B.
The devil is in the detail.

It is also important to specify the internal walls construction in a B/B as well as the internal finish on external walls in a B/B: it they are drylined for a service cavity then the thermal mass point is moot.

lolliedog · 05-12-2016 02:34PM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

This thread also shows that its not as simple as just T/F vs B/B.
The devil is in the detail.

It is also important to specify the internal walls construction in a B/B as well as the internal finish on external walls in a B/B: it they are drylined for a service cavity then the thermal mass point is moot.

Agreed.

kieran. · 05-12-2016 09:21PM

lolliedog wrote: »

My views!!

Timber frame
Advantages

Guaranteed airtightness.

I wouldn't be so sure on this point. With the closed panel systems being supplied by the main players in the market, i believe there is a over reliance on silicone sealants to air tight joints between external panel etc.. Given timbers natural tendency to shrink I can't help wondering how the performance of these methods will deteriorate of the lifespan of the building.

Johnnyhpipe · 06-12-2016 12:36AM

mickdw wrote: »

Timber frame can be designed for concrete screed first floor which if used with right floor finishes can be a very reasonable solution in terms of noise reduction etc.

In terms of loadings - yes. Differential thermal movements between concrete and timber in this case are a disaster.

mickdw · 06-12-2016 01:08AM

How so?

ht9zni1gs28crp · 06-12-2016 02:20PM

bertie 56 wrote: »

Ask yourself this simple question :

Who in the world, is still using cavity walls nowadays ???

... You'll have the answer ...

Happy timber build !

Quite a wide sweeping misinformed statement

bertie 56 · 14-12-2016 12:12AM

Andy Faint Armada wrote: »

Quite a wide sweeping misinformed statement

I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...

And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...

Looking forward to hear from you ...:D

ht9zni1gs28crp · 14-12-2016 10:34AM

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...

And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...

Looking forward to hear from you ...:D

Ill get the list as soon as you produce your argument propping up list alongside the country v climate v build technique comparison.

I too look forward to seeing your evidence to back up that sweeping statement.

sydthebeat · 14-12-2016 10:52AM

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...

And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...

Looking forward to hear from you ...:D

the vast majority of Timber frame construction systems in countries with a similar climate to ireland use a cavity wall system. Single skin systems have been shown to be very problematic in humid wet climates like ours.

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1679,en.pdf

Metric Tensor · 14-12-2016 12:21PM

The number of countries/regions across the world that have the level of wind driven rain and temperate maritime climate experienced in Ireland are limited. Add into that the dispersed low-rise nature of Irish dwellings and the number of similar regions is further reduced.

Off hand I can think of UK, NZ, Tasmania, Parts of Argentina.

Most of us are familiar with the UK style and I can't comment on the building stock of the other regions but I think for our climate and dwelling style cavity wall construction (be it full masonry or timber frame) has been proven itself effective.

murphaph · 14-12-2016 01:02PM

lolliedog wrote: »

Having lived in various houses with timber upper floors and concrete and now with 4 young boys there is no comparison. Day and night.

Our timber fram has a sand/cement screeded floating floor and I can't say noise from my 4 year old son and pals has been an issue. We have a concrete ground floor (over basement) so have a basis for a comparison and I can't say I've noticed sound from 1st floor to ground floor being worse than ground floor to basement, but I expect if I measured it it would be worse, just not perceptibly so.

murphaph · 14-12-2016 01:07PM

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...

Not a country but in wind zone 4 here in Germany it is common enough to build like that (but nowhere else). I'd say all of Ireland is as windy as wind zone 4 here though

bertie 56 · 15-12-2016 11:35PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

the vast majority of Timber frame construction systems in countries with a similar climate to ireland use a cavity wall system. Single skin systems have been shown to be very problematic in humid wet climates like ours.

http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1679,en.pdf

First of all, by " timber frame system ", I'm talking about the real timber frame system, not the one that has the external wall in blocks.
And of course, yes, with a ventilated space behind the external cladding, this one being in wood or not. That is pretty obvious... :rolleyes:

And at least with this system, the space is well ventilated, from down and up .
And the humidity that could appears behind the first layer ( cladding) falls straight outside the wall.
That is really a key point in the advantage of the TF.

I don't understand the cavity wall system in blocks where you let the humidity entering the first layer, and staying unvented inside half of the wall .

( It's always a very funny moment to see the face of a person when you show him the drip of a wall tie , saying to him : " That little thing is what will keep the Irish rain out of your house...

)

sydthebeat · 16-12-2016 08:45AM

Sounds like you've a dog in they fight Bertie.

As someone who doesn't, I can completely see the point of a cavity wall system. A system that has been used in this climate for over 1000 years.

Timber frame v block work wide cavity.

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