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Timber frame v block work wide cavity.
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01-12-2016 7:12pm#1
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Planning to build soon and have to make up my mind on the type of construction. I am considering timber frame twin wall with cellulose insulation or block with wide cavity. Where I live 90% build in block. Very hard to make a decision both have advantages and disadvantages.
I have looked for threads on timber frame but they all appear to be old.
Thoughts on the above would be appreciated.
Ask yourself this simple question :
Who in the world, is still using cavity walls nowadays ???
... You'll have the answer
...
Happy timber build !
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Andy Faint Armada wrote: »Quite a wide sweeping misinformed statement
I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...
And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...
Looking forward to hear from you ...:D0 -
I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...
And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...
Looking forward to hear from you ...:D
Ill get the list as soon as you produce your argument propping up list alongside the country v climate v build technique comparison.
I too look forward to seeing your evidence to back up that sweeping statement.0 -
I'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ...
And for the craic, you can make the same list with TF ...
Looking forward to hear from you ...:D
the vast majority of Timber frame construction systems in countries with a similar climate to ireland use a cavity wall system. Single skin systems have been shown to be very problematic in humid wet climates like ours.
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1679,en.pdf0 -
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Not a country but in wind zone 4 here in Germany it is common enough to build like that (but nowhere else). I'd say all of Ireland is as windy as wind zone 4 here thoughI'll be happy to read your list of countries where the cavity wall technique is the main technique used to build houses ... 0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »the vast majority of Timber frame construction systems in countries with a similar climate to ireland use a cavity wall system. Single skin systems have been shown to be very problematic in humid wet climates like ours.
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1679,en.pdf
First of all, by " timber frame system ", I'm talking about the real timber frame system, not the one that has the external wall in blocks.
And of course, yes, with a ventilated space behind the external cladding, this one being in wood or not. That is pretty obvious... :rolleyes:
And at least with this system, the space is well ventilated, from down and up .
And the humidity that could appears behind the first layer ( cladding) falls straight outside the wall.
That is really a key point in the advantage of the TF.
I don't understand the cavity wall system in blocks where you let the humidity entering the first layer, and staying unvented inside half of the wall .
( It's always a very funny moment to see the face of a person when you show him the drip of a wall tie , saying to him : " That little thing is what will keep the Irish rain out of your house... ) 0 -
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Yes , it's popular ...
Binge drinking is popular too ...
And for what I see here, threats with problems related to cavity walls are extremely popular too ...
Yes, 1000 years old, maybe... Not with blocks, I suppose... Maybe with wood cladding ???
And I'm always smile inside when I hear this sentence coming from a building guy : " we are always doing like this, for the last 20 - 40 - 100 years " . It often means " I'm too thick to evolve in my work, with new materials and practice ... "
Cement ... that's the answer... From floors to walls , to slates... everything in cement, because that the only thing we know ...
We build a cavity block house, like our parents, like the neighbors, because we know only this method ... because the architect reproduce what he has been taught , and because the engineer is not comfortable to calculate with other materials ...
Because it was an effective method back in the 1920's ...
Because the building sector is very conservative .
Because of the lobbies ( Quinn - Kingspan , etc...) too ... ( " concrete built is better built " ).
Because we think that all houses in the world are made of blocks ( don't laugh, I saw some ! You have to travel abroad and talk to foreigners to see that it's not true
... )
And because there is only blocks in the shop ...
That's why houses here are made out of blocks ...
But that's not enough to make the cavity-wall method a good method !
If you are a bit curious at other methods around, you'll see that there is far better .
Far better than a method where half of your wall is continuously soaked . A block is a sponge, and has no way of drying . The few barriers to keep the water out are laughable . If fitted right at the start, are you sure the DPC is intact everywhere after the block-layers job ?
Relaying on this piece of plastic to keep the water out the house is a bit dangerous to me...
About the insulation, what to say ?
Just a question, maybe : Would you employ a blind guy to fit some insulation ?
That's exactly what happens when you fit some rigid panels in the cavity : you see f.ck all if what you are doing is right ... A lump of mortar fells ? You'll have a hole between your panels ...
And the best : cavity pumping ... it's like blindfolding the blind ! ...
( plenty of nice pictures of thermal imaging available...:rolleyes: )
I can go ahead for hours , between thermal looping in the cavity to the UK cavity wall scandal ( 3 millions houses affected, coming to Ireland soon ??? )
There is no fix answer for a proper method or material, but OP, check at least these two things :
- That the water is kept out of the house. The best way is not to let it entered at all at the first place . That should be common sense...
Plenty of simple solutions exists from the timber frame methods .
- That the insulation you have is fitted right . That means the guy that did it and your engineer / yourself is able to see that the job has been properly done . No shortcuts here, no " it should be fine " from the builder, that means in reality " it won't be seen from my house " !!!
If you have these two things ( house warm and dry ), that's a good start .
You won't regret your former rented cold and damp cavity wall house...
PS : a couple of things about the Irish climate . We are lucky ! :eek:
No extreme conditions, despite what you think .
Actually, there is as many countries in the world where it rains more, than countries where it rains less. We are in the average ... No big freeze,so easy work on foundations, and we often need to rise the temperature of only 10 or 15 degrees , which is not a lot.
No problem with the heat neither, which is architecturally easier ( shading and aesthetic are not often friends :cool: ... )
And for the wind, it really depends on years and locations .
And well, what about stopping building on top of hills , for a start ? :P
Just one example : Bergen in Norway . About the same temperatures as here, roughly , a bit more windy , and more than twice the amount of rain that we have here in the West ( 3 times Dublin rain ! ) .
No cavity walls there. Houses are timber frame . And it works ... Dry and warm , without the need to " open the windows one hour per day " , as I read here few days ago as a solution to a damp problem... :rolleyes:
That's it for me, happy building all of ye ...;)0 -
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sydthebeat wrote: »i hope you realise the complete irony of your posts is that Timber Frame construction over here is generally built WITH A CONCRETE EXTERNAL LEAF AND CAVITY because of timbers huge susceptibility to moisture damage.
your post is filled with nothing but pro timber frame rhetoric so its obvious your either a manufacturer or salesman.
and ill augment what i said earlier in this thread
cavity walls have been built in these parts for over 2000 years
No, nothing to sell ... , knowledge sharing only ... ( What about you, by the way ??? ;-) )
And the OP question was block vs timber, no ??? So we talk blocks, and timber , no ?
I like Poroton too, that could be an answer, too ...
And I'm plenty aware of what you call " timber frame ", please read my first sentence of post #30, thanks.0 -
Yes , it's popular ...
Binge drinking is popular too ...
And for what I see here, threats with problems related to cavity walls are extremely popular too ...
Yes, 1000 years old, maybe... Not with blocks, I suppose... Maybe with wood cladding ???
And I'm always smile inside when I hear this sentence coming from a building guy : " we are always doing like this, for the last 20 - 40 - 100 years " . It often means " I'm too thick to evolve in my work, with new materials and practice ... "
I prefer block build but see the merits of TF also. You seem very bitter when it comes to block builds. It is something personal?0 -
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I prefer block build but see the merits of TF also. You seem very bitter when it comes to block builds. It is something personal?
No, nothing personal, I don't work at selling/erecting TF houses ...
And I'm not looking at a house neither...
It's just a bit of anger seeing the state of the building industry in 2016 in Ireland ...
Very poor ! And it's not only my point of view .
By talking to people who did spend some time in other countries, you'll see that , yes, the Irish way of building is a bit of a shame...
Same sh.tty damp and cold houses, same out of date techniques, with the same workers that don't have any interest whatsoever at what they are doing ... ( boards.ie is really an exception in all this !!! )
You want to buy or rent a house : what choice do you have ?
You will still need to burn your ton of oil per year to heat it !
You want to get stuff in a hardware ? Yes, you have Portland cement, breeze blocks, Kingspan slabs, fake slates, ****ty C16 carboard timber , and MDF/chipboard ... Not much else , and they all have the same...
And I'm sad to see that buyers (who don't have a clue , but it's normal...) will spend 40 years of they wages for a sh.tty house that won't probably even last their mortgage length...
And I'm sick of hearing pseudo " professionals " looking at a black spot of mold in a house , saying : " ah , yeah, it's normal, it rains in Ireland ! "
No intention to re-invent the wheel, but God, a bit of diversity is needed !
A bit of mind-opening !!! There is solutions to have a warm and dry house in Ireland . With simple techniques that exist for ages in other countries...
Its just time to let go the cavity-wall stuff with all their related problems ( that all of us perfectly knows ! ) . That's a last century technique ...
Last thing, the " green " part .
I was lucky few years ago , some neighbors were putting down a 20 years old timber frame house ( the real one, no blocks/bricks here ).
Nearly everything was salvaged .
Windows,all doors, wooden flooring, cement tiles has been re-used .
Outside walls studs , all roof structure, all insulation ( Rockwool-type), outside wooden cladding , inside cladding ,has been saved for future use .
Copper and plumbing equipment re-used or sold
The only stuff that went in the skip was :concrete slab with the EPS insulation ( destroyed with the digger ), roofing membrane, floor and wall tiles and plasterboard that were covering all the walls ( that could have maybe been properly recycled, by the way ).
And I did heat my house for three winters with all the wood leftover ...
This is just to compare with the volume of waste that a block house would make when destroyed .
Yes, that could be used to fill holes around ...But not sure it's allowed, first of all. And surely not the greenest thing ever considering the amount of paints and products in it ...
And it's still a waste...0 -
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