Should Private Schools be Closed?

eviltwin · 03-12-2016 01:17PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The school has clear obligations under the Children First Guidelines 2011

http://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Child_Welfare_Protection/ChildrenFirst/WhatResDoesOrgsHave.htm

The Ombudsman for Children Niall Muldoon pointed to clear guidelines that put an onus on schools to notify authorities without delay.

"In line with Children First 2011 Guidelines for the Protection and Welfare of Children, every school was obliged to have a child protection policy.

"Where there is a child protection concern, the designated liaison person should be notified immediately and Túsla should be contacted without delay. Any delay would not be in the best interests of the child or children involved," he said.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-fear-evidence-compromised-after-a-delay-in-reporting-alleged-sex-assault-35261734.html

Thats why I am completely confused at the suggestion above that they don't.

Children's First are only guidelines. There isn't mandatory reporting yet.

Annasopra · 03-12-2016 01:19PM

josha1 wrote: »

What exactly are the undeserving poor? No one is undeserving of a chance to go to a particular school. You seem to think that they completely cherry pick students based on the latter of those criterion, which is simply not true. They choose anyone and everyone (contrary to what the other poster was saying, that they should only let in 'intelligent' people.

It's a Victorian ideological concept towards poverty that has a very socially stratified view of dividing poor basically into strivers and scroungers

http://www.experiencewoodhorn.com/part-2-deserving-or-undeserving-poor/
http://www.herinst.org/BusinessManagedDemocracy/culture/work/deserving.html
https://workingclassstudies.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/the-return-of-the-undeserving-poor/

You just outlined yourself they have criteria on who they will give a scholarship to - on who "deserves" a scholarship

josha1 · 03-12-2016 01:26PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It's a Victorian ideological concept towards poverty that has a very socially stratified view of dividing poor basically into strivers and scroungers

http://www.experiencewoodhorn.com/part-2-deserving-or-undeserving-poor/
http://www.herinst.org/BusinessManagedDemocracy/culture/work/deserving.html
https://workingclassstudies.wordpress.com/2015/04/06/the-return-of-the-undeserving-poor/

You just outlined yourself they have criteria on who they will give a scholarship to - on who "deserves" a scholarship

To say that Ireland has any true sort of class system akin to the Victorian times is a bit ridiculous.

While I personally feel that those who 'strive' may be more deserving (in some cases), the schools, or at least the two schools that I'm thinking about in particular don't require people to meet them criteria, it was a direct response to the person who said that only academics should be considered. The schools effectively don't have criteria other than you wouldn't have the opportunity to go there without the scholarship.

There are plenty of scholarship students who simply float in and out and don't take part in school activities or the 'extras' that previous posters were talking about, as they are entitled to.

evolving_doors · 03-12-2016 01:31PM

4ensic15 wrote: »

The school was given legal advice to report the incident immediately which it ignored.
If this school was fully private with no lower middle-class parents scraping together money to pay fees for their offspring there, most likely this incident would never have happened.

It shouldn't even have gone as far as 'seeking legal advice'. It would appear that the school did not report the incident straight away.

Instead (going by what was on RTE news last night) they rang tusla and put forth different scenarios and hung up the phone (as if they were just asking innocent hypothetical questions), so they failed to notify the proper authorities in a timely manner. This is important in terms of evidence gathering.

Not only this, they then went on to tell the parents (or suggest to them!) that they HAD notified tusla... when in fact they just had a chat with Tusla about hypothetical situations. They were giving the parents the impression that it had been reported. If they had been misleading with the truth to the parents then it shows that they were actively trying to 'manage the situation'.

steddyeddy · 03-12-2016 01:40PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

If you are willing to pay the fees for your child's education and the waiting lists are not extortionately long (they aren't anymore) than your kid can go to that school. This idea that there are selection criteria is not true

So in other words they choose the kids of those who are willing or able to pay fees. In other words something the kid has no control over.

Bridge93 · 03-12-2016 02:14PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

So in other words they choose the kids of those who are willing or able to pay fees. In other words something the kid has no control over.

No kid has any control over what school they go to fee paying or not.

It's similar to kids who's parents have them on private healthcare plans. They didn't choose to be or not to be. In both scenarios the parents choose.
Should we have no private healthcare system either?

jackofalltrades · 03-12-2016 02:55PM

Firstly poor kid, that's an absolutely terrible thing to happen to someone.
Even worse if it turns out that someone recorded it.

Secondly I can't fathom how someones first reaction is to not immediately contact the Gardaí on hearing that something like this happened.

Thirdly I think it a bit tasteless, and that's putting it mildly, to use this incident to push the agenda of closing private schools.

thebaz · 03-12-2016 03:40PM

I just wonder is the 12 year old best interests served by the mass media headlines of the horrific event - let the appropriate authorities investigate and prosecute , but privately rather than in the glare of the public media , don't think this can be good for the victim as he tries to recover and re-build his esteem and life, after such a horrible attack.

03-12-2016 03:40PM

There must have been some incompetent in charge that night. The incident would have been reported to the most senior staff member and they should have taken charge by informing the parents and the authorities. What may have happened is the parents asked them to hold off until they spoke to the kid, hence the delay. Or the kid may have been very distressed (understandably) and refused to cooperate, denying th incident perhaps.

Either way, googling and asking vague questions of the relevant agencies shows a complete lack of charge of the situation and the protocol that is certainly in place for dealing the serious incidents wasn't followed.

Either way, bullying happens everywhere and whether this happened in a dorm or on a school trip or on a school bus is beside the point. The child is the important part of this story, not the school.

Poor kid.

Walter2016 · 03-12-2016 03:53PM

thebaz wrote: »

I just wonder is the 12 year old best interests served by the mass media headlines of the horrific event - let the appropriate authorities investigate and prosecute , but privately rather than in the glare of the public media , don't think this can be good for the victim as he tries to recover and re-build his esteem and life, after such a horrible attack.

Do you REALLY think the hysterical sensationalist media give a damn about anyone's feelings?

Media, esp indo group, have one aim and one aim only. You to read the article and see the adverts.

Journalism, feelings and truth play no part in it.

josha1 · 03-12-2016 03:56PM

Walter2016 wrote: »

Do you REALLY think the hysterical sensationalist media give a damn about anyone's feelings?

Media, esp indo group, have one aim and one aim only. You to read the article and see the adverts.

Journalism, feelings and truth play no part in it.

I think they mean how the story got out in the first place.

It's completely bizarre really - the school wouldn't want it to get out because of bad publicity, the victim's parents wouldn't want it to get out due to harm to the innocent victim, the accused's parents wouldn't want it to get out because of the angry mob, I really struggle to see who leaked it. The whole thing has been handled quite poorly, having said that I don't think there is a proper way to deal with such a disgusting incident.

steddyeddy · 03-12-2016 04:09PM

josha1 wrote: »

I think they mean how the story got out in the first place.

It's completely bizarre really - the school wouldn't want it to get out because of bad publicity, the victim's parents wouldn't want it to get out due to harm to the innocent victim, the accused's parents wouldn't want it to get out because of the angry mob, I really struggle to see who leaked it. The whole thing has been handled quite poorly, having said that I don't think there is a proper way to deal with such a disgusting incident.

Call the police if an assault has been reported.

josha1 · 03-12-2016 04:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Call the police if an assault has been reported.

I mean in terms of should the parents be contacted first, should the accused be expelled immediately, should tusla or the guards be contacted first, should the school release a statement, should the victims parents go to the press, should other parents go to the press, should the supervisor be fired etc etc. It's not that simple. The entire incident is completely unprecedented.

IvyTheTerrible · 03-12-2016 04:44PM

josha1 wrote: »

I mean in terms of should the parents be contacted first, should the accused be expelled immediately, should tusla or the guards be contacted first, should the school release a statement, should the victims parents go to the press, should other parents go to the press, should the supervisor be fired etc etc. It's not that simple. The entire incident is completely unprecedented.

Apart from the media attention, in what way do you think it's unprecedented? Do you think sexual assault has never happened in a school before?

03-12-2016 04:51PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Apart from the media attention, in what way do you think it's unprecedented? Do you think sexual assault has never happened in a school before?

Even if it's unprecedented in that school, there would be detailed protocols in place to deal with assaults, serious bullying, accidents, thefts, burglary, fire and sexual assaults too. It doesn't matter if it was unprecedented or not, there would be a plan to set the wheels in motion to deal with it.

There was a massive failure on the part of whoever was in charge that night, and by the school thereafter in that unacceptable delay in informing the relevant authorities.

At the very least, there should be resignations over this incompetence.

ted1 · 03-12-2016 05:56PM

Candie wrote: »

Even if it's unprecedented in that school, there would be detailed protocols in place to deal with assaults, serious bullying, accidents, thefts, burglary, fire and sexual assaults too. It doesn't matter if it was unprecedented or not, there would be a plan to set the wheels in motion to deal with it.

There was a massive failure on the part of whoever was in charge that night, and by the school thereafter in that unacceptable delay in informing the relevant authorities.

At the very least, there should be resignations over this incompetence.

Sexual abuse isn't unprecedented in that school.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/orourkes-sex-shame-26200056.html

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/swim-coachs-sex-abuse-victims-win-fight-for-damages-26422066.html

evolving_doors · 03-12-2016 06:22PM

ted1 wrote: »

Sexual abuse isn't unprecedented in that school.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/orourkes-sex-shame-26200056.html

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/swim-coachs-sex-abuse-victims-win-fight-for-damages-26422066.html

Did he Sexually advise anyone during his tenure at the school?
In fairness though that was a swimming club who subsequently used the school's facilities (did students attend that club?) When the school found out about him they asked him to resign his post with the school ASAP. The club brought him back unbeknownst to the school.

BoatMad · 03-12-2016 06:28PM

Candie wrote: »

Even if it's unprecedented in that school, there would be detailed protocols in place to deal with assaults, serious bullying, accidents, thefts, burglary, fire and sexual assaults too. It doesn't matter if it was unprecedented or not, there would be a plan to set the wheels in motion to deal with it.

There was a massive failure on the part of whoever was in charge that night, and by the school thereafter in that unacceptable delay in informing the relevant authorities.

At the very least, there should be resignations over this incompetence.

In fairness 4 days passed and the authorities were informed. I presume the child reported it at some stage or informed his parents.

I would not cast aspersions until we know the details of how the incident cane to light.

ted1 · 03-12-2016 06:32PM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Did he Sexually advise anyone during his tenure at the school?
In fairness though that was a swimming club who subsequently used the school's facilities (did students attend that club?) When the school found out about him they asked him to resign his post with the school ASAP. The club brought him back unbeknownst to the school.

In fairness to the courts the found the school was in the wrong and awarded they pay the victims several hounded thousand euro.
As a result of they case the school should have been on the ball this time around.

evolving_doors · 03-12-2016 06:46PM

ted1 wrote: »

In fairness to the courts the found the school was in the wrong and awarded they pay the victims several hounded thousand euro.
As a result of they case the school should have been on the ball this time around.

Ok I see that the school had known of allegations made against him.
the procedure is to pass it on to Gardai or tusla ASAP. They didn't do this.

Annasopra · 03-12-2016 06:47PM

josha1 wrote: »

I mean in terms of should the parents be contacted first, should the accused be expelled immediately, should tusla or the guards be contacted first, should the school release a statement, should the victims parents go to the press, should other parents go to the press, should the supervisor be fired etc etc. It's not that simple. The entire incident is completely unprecedented.

How is it unprecented? Serious assaults have happened many many times in schools

Annasopra · 03-12-2016 06:50PM

BoatMad wrote: »

In fairness 4 days passed and the authorities were informed. I presume the child reported it at some stage or informed his parents.

I would not cast aspersions until we know the details of how the incident cane to light.

The point is why did the school wait 4 days to report this?

josha1 · 03-12-2016 06:52PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

How is it unprecented? Serious assaults have happened many many times in schools

I don't know about you but I'd consider a boy being sexually assaulted with a hockey stick to be unprecedented.

4ensic15 · 03-12-2016 06:53PM

josha1 wrote: »

I don't know about you but I'd consider a boy being sexually assaulted with a hockey stick to be unprecedented.

Why! is it usually with a hurley?

pickarooney · 03-12-2016 06:57PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Where are the men of '98 when you need them?

Zidane and Barthez?

03-12-2016 07:06PM

ted1 wrote: »

Sexual abuse isn't unprecedented in that school.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/orourkes-sex-shame-26200056.html

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/swim-coachs-sex-abuse-victims-win-fight-for-damages-26422066.html

My point was that it wouldn't matter if it was; there are protocols in place in schools for dealing with these eventualities.

I was a boarder myself (elsewhere), and there's no way 15 kids in one dorm watching a fight would have gone unnoticed for the period of time we seem to be talking about here.

Annasopra · 03-12-2016 07:10PM

josha1 wrote: »

I don't know about you but I'd consider a boy being sexually assaulted with a hockey stick to be unprecedented.

The exact detail might be. But overall the fact it happened is not. And that is why we have laws and guidelines on child protection. Sexual abuse and assault of children has happened many many times before. I dont know why some people in the thread are acting as if it has never happened before and as if we havent developed a child protection system to deal with such invidents.

steddyeddy · 03-12-2016 07:15PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The exact detail might be. But overall the fact it happened is not. And that is why we have laws and guidelines on child protection. Sexual abuse and assault of children has happened many many times before. I dont know why some people in the thread are acting as if it has never happened before and as if we havent developed a child protection system to deal with such invidents.

It has also been covered up many times before. It's ridiculous they didn't go to the Garda first.

steddyeddy · 03-12-2016 07:21PM

josha1 wrote: »

I mean in terms of should the parents be contacted first, should the accused be expelled immediately, should tusla or the guards be contacted first, should the school release a statement, should the victims parents go to the press, should other parents go to the press, should the supervisor be fired etc etc. It's not that simple. The entire incident is completely unprecedented.

Well the law supercedes school policy.

evolving_doors · 03-12-2016 07:45PM

Jeez to think those 13yr old kids had to go to bed that night and pretend to themselves that what happened was normal. They probably thought that that's how to 'be a man' in this world.

Sure it could happen anywhere, but how did someone not notice or hear 15kids in a small bedroom? Although it could have all taken place in the space of 20mins while the supervisor was doing rounds or being distracted.

Should Private Schools be Closed?

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