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Should Private Schools be Closed?

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Comments

  • #182
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    josha1 wrote: »
    Well the disadvantaged poor are being provided free education by the state, which clearly suffices to obtain sufficient grades, which I believe you or someone else made clear in the coláiste Eoin argument.

    If parents want their child to go to a certain school to receive a certain type of education - based on ethos, sporting facilities, etc. then so be it. Like I said, if parents do not have the financial capability to provide this, then they can use the schools provided for completely by the state, or try to obtain a scholarship.
    ted1 wrote: »
    No it's not due to parents wealth, it's parents choice. Many Parents make sacrifices to send the kids to semi private schools.
    josha1 wrote: »
    If someone is in receipt of social welfare unemployment benefit, medical card, free housing, single parent etc, they can only pay tax in the technical sense of the word.
    That doesn't mean that their children shouldn't get education, it is something that everyone, including those who attend private schools is entitled to.

    I condemn that sort of lifestyle but it leaves me wondering why a child's education should suffer because of their parent's lifestyle.


  • #183
    josha1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭josha1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I condemn that sort of lifestyle but it leaves me wondering why a child's education should suffer because of their parent's lifestyle.
    If you are talking about the lifestyle of parents that bend hand over foot and save while working full time to put their kids in positions that they were never in then I'm not quite sure?

    If you're talking about the social welfare brigade, exactly, their kids are entitled to the education provided by the state. I don't think many people have a problem with that. [even though they don't pay tax in reality.]


  • #184
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,495 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    OK value added TAX isn't a tax. I don't know where I got that idea about value added TAX :pac:

    Do you are saying our effective tax rate is not 52% but 75%??


  • #185
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,561 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yes, horribly exclusive. No travellers, immigrants, asylum seekers, kids with learning difficulties... perfect for the "I'm not a racist, but..." crowd.
    So you know this how?Because I am a teacher of children with SEN in a Gaelscoil and call BS on this. We have several nationalities in our school and a wide variety of abilities and learning needs. But please do continue to spout your ridiculous BS. Are you aware that many Gaelscoileanna have DEIS status?Are mulit-denom?Or does that interfere with your totally inaccurate statement?


  • #186
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    I can only think of one fully private school in the Republic of the top of my head

    Institute / Bruce college (if they're still going!) / Ashfield / yeats.... Basically the 'Grinds schools' are the only private ones.


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  • #187
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Yoi can close all pseudo private schools like CUS and Kings Hos. they're all muck anyway. Just leave the good ones open.


  • #188
    Glenster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    Institute / Bruce college (if they're still going!) / Ashfield / yeats.... Basically the 'Grinds schools' are the only private ones.

    private schools = selective school.

    I know *technically* it means something else. But let's be grown ups here.


  • #189
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    More information on this coming out from the journalist who started the story.

    The incident happened on Friday. The school was alerted, and they suspended nine boys involved.

    On Tuesday morning, parents of the accused boys came to the victim's parents looking to do a deal to make the incident go away and let them move on. "Somebody" then contacted the journalist to raise the alarm.

    Tbh, this seems slightly more reasonable given those facts. The school or the child contacted his parents. And the school took action. The school does not have an obligation to report the incident to the authorities unless they believe it is not being reported/handled. Especially at 13 years of age, there has to be a balance somewhere between what is appropriate for a school to report, and what is best left up to the parents to report. It's a tough line to walk; what is best left to parents to report and what should always be reported?

    But either way, we have this odd situation where someone becomes aware of a situation and instead of contacting the relevant authorities, goes running to a journalist to complain that the authorities aren't being contacted. What's that about?


  • #190
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Glenster wrote: »
    private schools = selective school.

    I know *technically* it means something else. But let's be grown ups here.

    Use the correct terms then if you want to be grown up!

    A private school does not receive any money from the state.
    It's important because these schools DO receive money from the state.


  • #191
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    My kid's school is fee paying and it's CofI (nominally).

    There is no rugby played there at all.

    My kids are at a fee paying Protestant school - rugby, hockey and cricket only - and they hate them all. :D

    Anyway, thread is a train wreck - quite appropriate really since the OP is a keen poster on the C+T Forum.

    ****



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  • #192
    ted1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,495 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    My kids are at a fee paying Protestant school - rugby, hockey and cricket only - and they hate them all. :D

    Anyway, thread is a train wreck - quite appropriate really since the OP is a keen poster on the C+T Forum.

    C&T?


  • #193
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Sorry - Commuting & Transport.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=246

    ****



  • #194
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,442 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    josha1 wrote: »
    If you are talking about the lifestyle of parents that bend hand over foot and save while working full time to put their kids in positions that they were never in then I'm not quite sure?

    If you're talking about the social welfare brigade, exactly, their kids are entitled to the education provided by the state. I don't think many people have a problem with that. [even though they don't pay tax in reality.]

    Social Welfare brigade.... Suppose you tar every person in receipt of benefits the same way. The disabled, the sick, the people trying to find work, the people on supplemental allowance... They're all the same.


  • #195
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    seamus wrote: »
    More information on this coming out from the journalist who started the story.

    The incident happened on Friday. The school was alerted, and they suspended nine boys involved.

    On Tuesday morning, parents of the accused boys came to the victim's parents looking to do a deal to make the incident go away and let them move on. "Somebody" then contacted the journalist to raise the alarm.

    Tbh, this seems slightly more reasonable given those facts. The school or the child contacted his parents. And the school took action. The school does not have an obligation to report the incident to the authorities unless they believe it is not being reported/handled. Especially at 13 years of age, there has to be a balance somewhere between what is appropriate for a school to report, and what is best left up to the parents to report. It's a tough line to walk; what is best left to parents to report and what should always be reported?

    But either way, we have this odd situation where someone becomes aware of a situation and instead of contacting the relevant authorities, goes running to a journalist to complain that the authorities aren't being contacted. What's that about?

    An issue like this would have to be reported to the Gardai by the school under child protection regulations.


  • #196
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    josha1 wrote: »
    This is 100% true, finally someone from the other side that can see clearly.

    However they are completely entitled to do so, and give parents the choice of which type they want to send there children to.

    They also provide scholarships based on background, sporting ability, musical talent, drama etc. which I said in a different comment. They're not designed to 'keep the poors out'.

    Yeah they let only a select few in. Like the old concept of the deserving poor. So the ones they deem "undeserving" are basically kept out.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #197
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Grayson wrote: »
    Catholic catechism is still taught religiously.

    How else would it be thought?


  • #198
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    seamus wrote: »
    More information on this coming out from the journalist who started the story.

    The incident happened on Friday. The school was alerted, and they suspended nine boys involved.

    On Tuesday morning, parents of the accused boys came to the victim's parents looking to do a deal to make the incident go away and let them move on. "Somebody" then contacted the journalist to raise the alarm.

    Tbh, this seems slightly more reasonable given those facts. The school or the child contacted his parents. And the school took action. The school does not have an obligation to report the incident to the authorities unless they believe it is not being reported/handled. Especially at 13 years of age, there has to be a balance somewhere between what is appropriate for a school to report, and what is best left up to the parents to report. It's a tough line to walk; what is best left to parents to report and what should always be reported?

    But either way, we have this odd situation where someone becomes aware of a situation and instead of contacting the relevant authorities, goes running to a journalist to complain that the authorities aren't being contacted. What's that about?


    Sorry what?

    Where on earth are you getting information that the school is not obliged to report such an incident?

    I'm really confused here. Are you saying it is reasonable the school or another childs parents tried to get this covered up?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #199
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Sorry what?

    Where on earth are you getting information that the school is not obliged to report such an incident?
    It seems the reporting of serious crime is now at the discretion of school management.


  • #200
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    It seems the reporting of serious crime is now at the discretion of school management.

    The school has clear obligations under the Children First Guidelines 2011

    http://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Child_Welfare_Protection/ChildrenFirst/WhatResDoesOrgsHave.htm

    The Ombudsman for Children Niall Muldoon pointed to clear guidelines that put an onus on schools to notify authorities without delay.

    "In line with Children First 2011 Guidelines for the Protection and Welfare of Children, every school was obliged to have a child protection policy.

    "Where there is a child protection concern, the designated liaison person should be notified immediately and Túsla should be contacted without delay. Any delay would not be in the best interests of the child or children involved," he said.

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/garda-fear-evidence-compromised-after-a-delay-in-reporting-alleged-sex-assault-35261734.html

    Thats why I am completely confused at the suggestion above that they don't.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #201
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    The school was given legal advice to report the incident immediately which it ignored.
    If this school was fully private with no lower middle-class parents scraping together money to pay fees for their offspring there, most likely this incident would never have happened.


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  • #202
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    seamus wrote: »
    More information on this coming out from the journalist who started the story.

    The incident happened on Friday. The school was alerted, and they suspended nine boys involved.

    On Tuesday morning, parents of the accused boys came to the victim's parents looking to do a deal to make the incident go away and let them move on. "Somebody" then contacted the journalist to raise the alarm.

    Tbh, this seems slightly more reasonable given those facts. The school or the child contacted his parents. And the school took action. The school does not have an obligation to report the incident to the authorities unless they believe it is not being reported/handled. Especially at 13 years of age, there has to be a balance somewhere between what is appropriate for a school to report, and what is best left up to the parents to report. It's a tough line to walk; what is best left to parents to report and what should always be reported?

    But either way, we have this odd situation where someone becomes aware of a situation and instead of contacting the relevant authorities, goes running to a journalist to complain that the authorities aren't being contacted. What's that about?
    Satire surely?


  • #203
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    It seems the reporting of serious crime is now at the discretion of school management.

    That isn't the case in every school is it?


  • #204
    whoopsadoodles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,058 ✭✭✭whoopsadoodles


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The school was given legal advice to report the incident immediately which it ignored.
    If this school was fully private with no lower middle-class parents scraping together money to pay fees for their offspring there, most likely this incident would never have happened.

    Never happened, or "never happened"?


  • #205
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,236 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    That isn't the case in every school is it?

    No. See my post above.

    The schools have legal child protection obligations since 2011.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #206
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No. See my post above.

    The schools have legal child protection obligations since 2011.

    Sorry J. That's good to know.


  • #207
    josha1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭josha1


    Grayson wrote: »
    Social Welfare brigade.... Suppose you tar every person in receipt of benefits the same way. The disabled, the sick, the people trying to find work, the people on supplemental allowance... They're all the same.
    Clearly not. The country provides a fallback net for people who unfortunately find themselves out of the job out of no fault of their own. Clearly I don't think that we should follow the UK's system of basically harassing disabled people to work, when they are in no position to do so. Clearly if someone is sick, either temporarily or long term, we shouldn't throw them under a bus like they effectively do in America. Clearly families who are simply unable to get by, living week to week deserve all that they can get from the government. None of them are the same, they are all however equally deserving of the tax money going into the state.

    But to say that someone who has never contributed to the taxation system of the government in a meaningful way, i.e. none of the above, should be categorised as a taxpayer the same as the squeezed middle who pay extortionate taxes being imposed in the country on only about 50% of the country is ludicrous.

    The poster was claiming that VAT should not be seen as any different from PAYE etc, they still 'pay tax'. And 23% tax apparently. So effectively I must be paying about 95% tax if we add up every since tax and charge, just by percentage without any sort of weight on the money or any consideration of where it came from.


  • #208
    josha1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭josha1


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yeah they let only a select few in. Like the old concept of the deserving poor. So the ones they deem "undeserving" are basically kept out.
    What exactly are the undeserving poor? No one is undeserving of a chance to go to a particular school. You seem to think that they completely cherry pick students based on the latter of those criterion, which is simply not true. They choose anyone and everyone (contrary to what the other poster was saying, that they should only let in 'intelligent' people.


  • #209
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    josha1 wrote: »
    What exactly are the undeserving poor? No one is undeserving of a chance to go to a particular school. You seem to think that they completely cherry pick students based on the latter of those criterion, which is simply not true. They choose anyone and everyone (contrary to what the other poster was saying, that they should only let in 'intelligent' people.

    They choose anyone and everyone?


  • #210
    josha1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭josha1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    They choose anyone and everyone?
    ? For the scholarship program they choose people from all walks of life, not sure what the question is?


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  • #211
    Bridge93
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    They choose anyone and everyone?

    If you are willing to pay the fees for your child's education and the waiting lists are not extortionately long (they aren't anymore) than your kid can go to that school. This idea that there are selection criteria is not true


This discussion has been closed.
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