Should Private Schools be Closed?

spurious wrote: »

Technically, they are privately owned. The State schools would be the VEC/ETB schools. Usually when people say private school in Ireland, they mean fee paying, not the Holy Faith up the road.

No private schools in Ireland , just public or semi private

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Point of information: the vast, vast majority of schools in the 26 counties are, in fact, "private schools", with the largest private owner being the RCC. Only about 15% of schools are genuine public/state schools - e.g. community colleges/VEC/ETB schools - owned by the Irish state. That, I hope, will be changed.

The OP I assume is really talking about fee-charging schools, which are a decreasing minority of Irish schools. I don't think this incident is an indictment of them - bullying happens in all schools to varying degrees. However, I do believe we should not have our taxes supplementing the existence of fee-charging schools.

Part of your problem is that the schools play Rugby as oppose to Football? Maybe we should close down all the soccer clubs while we are at it.


If people want to send their children to fee-charging schools, let them pay for them fully and not be supplemented by our taxes. That €100 million plus subsidy would be better spent building up a state school system. If that were removed from fee-charging schools their fees would increase from c. €6500 to c. €25,000 per annum (which is the sort of fees charged by "Independent Schools" in England, where private schools have received no state subsidies since 1975).


At any rate, fee-charging schools are not good value for money in the vast majority of cases as there are many excellent public schools. For instance, the school in the state with the highest number of students going on to university is not a fee-charging school but a free gaelscoil in Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin. Given the advantages the €6k plus fee per year gives to fee-charging schools in terms of resources this says something about the merits of fee-charging schools. An engaged/involved parent is a much greater benefit to a child's education than the extra resources which a fee-charging school can provide - e.g. sailing lessons.

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

So you measure schools by students going in to 3rd level. So you ignore all trades or those that go straight into business or abroad.
And it's not colasite Eoin it's Iosagain the girls school that's in the same site.


Why not look at where the students end up in 20 years.

If fees were to go from 6k to 25k, schools will close and the state will then have to seriously increase the budget for education because it costs them less to have students in semi private schools as the school has to look after the maintenance and upkeep of the buildings as oppose to the dept if education.

I can only assume the OP is being ironic ie there are often calls to close Catholic schools because of past abuses (over simplifying on my part).

For my own part/prejudice as soon as I heard hockey sticks on radio I instantly thought "private/possibly Protestant ethos school".

Should they be closed? Eh, no. But I don't think the OP was genuinely asking a question.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just heard a horrible story on the news about the sexual assault of a 13 year old boy in King's Hospital School in Palmerstown, It appears the boy was assaulted with a hockey stick by eight other students in a dormitory in the school last Thursday.

Is it time that these elitist boarding schools were shut down and students put into mainstream education instead?

If the school thought they could not report this serious assault for a week what other assaults are they covering up? It seems the Protestant religion and their schools are just as bad as the Roman Catholics when it comes to cover-ups. I wonder were the family asked to keep the assault quiet? have other assaults in the past been covered up?


http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/kings-hospital/



http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/boy-13-allegedly-sexually-assaulted-by-pupils-at-boarding-school-1.2888315

If I recall correctly you did another thread before about closing semi private schools, that chip must be huge.

With all the revelations in the news today , should we disband all soccer clubs ?

Deleted User wrote: »

You raise some decent points there. Funding of fee-charging schools is complex but in a nutshell most teachers are paid for by the state. The school then pays for extra teachers (usually, if not always, on inferior conditions of employment) to bring classroom sizes down but this is by no means guaranteed; they could use the fees to provide a teacher for another subject and thus improve choice. In addition, the state gives large amounts of money as capitation grants to subsidise schools extensions, renovations, maintenance, etc.

While you are one of the few people who seem to be aware that none of the extra teachers are paid for by the state, and I commend you for that, I'm sure you're aware that paying for teachers is only a part of the states funding for a school [although that could change with the strikes every other week]

In reality, they have loads more expenses that aren't covered by the state for private schools. Like I said, a private student costs the state roughly half what a public student does, so it's hard to not see the consequences of removing private being negative on both sets of parents, but more importantly students.

[as a side note on 'inferior contracts'. I wouldn't exactly call them inferior. It's not like they're 0 hour contracts or something, generally if it's being paid for by the school not the state they initially offer a 1 year contract, and extend if needed/ wanted.]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That, whether people like it or not (and personally I don't) is a measurement used by many parents; more pertinently, the vast majority of parents who would send their children to a fee-charging school - an academic school, not a 'technical' school like the community college - will be far more interested in that measurement than they are in the rate of progression from said academic school to an apprenticeship with FÁS/SOLAS.




According to The Irish Times article I linked to (and which you evidently didn't read): 'However, a number of schools outside this traditional group also rank towards the top of league tables, including community and non-fee paying schools. Coláiste Eoin in Stillorgan, Co Dublin, an all-boys gaelscoil, heads the overall rankings, followed by the fee-paying Cistercian College in Roscrea, Co Tipperary...'




Fee-charging schools would certainly close. But the €100 million plus which goes into that fee-charging sector at the moment could be redirected into the state school system. It could be true that it would cost the state more, or the state would get greater economies of scale from being in charge of all schools and therefore it could save the state money.

You'd be wrong about parents basing schools on 3rd level access. They look for a rounded education where the kids can socialise with their peers.

Colaiste Eoin is 18th on the list, it's also an Irish school which means students get bonus points in the leaving cert.

That 100m would be funnelled into making places for people coming from semi private schools , it would also need to be topped up by another 100m. It will cost the state money as highlighted in every report that looked into it.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that would make them multidenominational. I checked years ago and I couldn't find a non-denominational school in Ireland - but I could have missed one.

There are a few schools such as Headfort preparatory boarding primary school in Kells (the Meath one) which is a genuinely private school receiving no money from the state so they wouldn't have a responsibility to teach any religion. But from a friend who went there and was marched up to mass/service in Kells town every Sunday morning they were at least multidenominational (although the school's website says the following: 'Headfort is proud to be non-denominational. We do, however, teach religion, taking an inclusive approach and introducing our pupils to multiple variations of Christianity as well as other major world religions. We hold First Communion services when we have a quorum of pupils whose parents request it; we can also prepare pupils for Confirmation.' That description would, to me, qualify the school as multidenominational, not non-denominational.)

John Scottus teaches religion but in the same way they teach other subjects. So one week it may be Islam the next it could be Buddhism. They also teach foreign languages from a young age. I believe they start with Latin and Greek since they form the root of most western languages. They also study Philosophy.

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasn't in Dublin. That's for sure.

Mullingar.

It used to be a boys only boarding school when I went there. There were about 50% non boarding students. Since I left it's switched to co-ed non boarding.

Deleted User wrote: »

It is an excellent school, especially for languages. But most schools would teach religion nowadays like any other subject. If you have a look at a textbook you'll almost certainly see chapters on each of the world religions. Religion in schools nowadays is a very different thing to what it was when I did it and it can't honestly be seen as just a class about Catholicism in most schools. That said, it's also treated a bit like CSPE in most schools: it's normally not an exam subject so isn't taken seriously.




I know it well. I have one of the black and amber jerseys at home from the early 1950s by virtue of a very close relative who went there and played on the teams. Many other relatives also went there right up until the early 1980s. I never knew it had stopped boarding, or that it became co-ed.

I think it was about 2000 that it stopped boarding and became Co-ed. It was after I left anyway. As far as I'm aware it's probably the most catholic school in the country. Catholic catechism is still taught religiously.

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would love if you could find a link to that thread please.

Here it is.

Couldn't help it

Deleted User wrote: »

If people want to send their children to fee-charging schools, let them pay for them fully and not be supplemented by our taxes. That €100 million plus subsidy would be better spent building up a state school system. If that were removed from fee-charging schools their fees would increase from c. €6500 to c. €25,000 per annum (which is the sort of fees charged by "Independent Schools" in England, where private schools have received no state subsidies since 1975).


At any rate, fee-charging schools are not good value for money in the vast majority of cases as there are many excellent public schools. For instance, the school in the state with the highest number of students going on to university is not a fee-charging school but a free gaelscoil in Stillorgan, Coláiste Eoin. Given the advantages the €6k plus fee per year gives to fee-charging schools in terms of resources this says something about the merits of fee-charging schools. An engaged/involved parent is a much greater benefit to a child's education than the extra resources which a fee-charging school can provide - e.g. sailing lessons.

Essentially the fee-charging schools are about aping the English public school system - have you ever seen a fee-charging school that is not anglocentic/does not promote English sports? - but getting the Irish taxpayer to supplement this institutionalised cultural cringe. Let these jumped-up Paddys pay in full for their notions.

It's amazing you can stay on your feet as long as you do with a chip that big on your shoulder. Most of this is bitter stereotyping.

Fee paying schools save the state money. Of this there is no doubt. You can deal in hypotheticals and what ifs if they all closed but as it is now fee paying schools save the state money.
You feel those who send their kids to fee schools should have to pay full price. As an extension so you feel their taxes should be funding others education while getting no benefit for their own kids. As citizens of the state they are entitled to a portion of the fruits of the tax system. 100% of fee paying parents pay taxes. 100% of those who don't pay tax send kids to public schools. There has to be some fairness in state funding of fee paying schools.
There are many many excellent non fee schools. Colaiste Eoin as a Gaelscoil however being top is an outlier. The majority of schools below it are fee paying despite being a tiny proportion of the schools on the island. Gaelscoils also are not typical given the kids have to be very competent in Irish. This naturally means a more academically intelligent child is likely to get through the entry tests.
Who are you to say fee paying schools aren't value for money? How people spend their own money is their business and they may take great value from it. Despite the proven higher academics they provide opportunities and facilities far beyond academics. If parents value that that's there call, not yours
Not going to bother with the sailing classes comments as it's a childish dig.
The last paragraph is embarrassing, get a grip of yourself. I'm surprised you cant identify why there may be artefacts of the English schooling system present in schools that were opened when Ireland was under British rule. Or maybe you just want them to change their traditions and methods of operation to suit yourself.
The school I was in didn't 'promote' English sports, it offered all kinds of sports to the kids. You sound like a relic from a bygone era of the GAA, as if playing English sports is bad. Nearly every school in the country has a football team, are they all 'promoting' English sports if they don't also have a GAA team?
I spent 11 years in non fee education and 3 in fee paying and loved both equally. But this bitterness and disregard for the truth about fee schools from some is astounding.

The school being fee paying or not is irrelevant. As posters have said, every school has its share of scumbags, the questions are how they're managed and how incidents are dealt with.

From newspaper and radio rpts so far, I wouldn't be impressed with school.