Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 07:20AM

The most effective method would be to screen immigrants at ports and airports entering Ireland.

If the Irish government don't agree then some kind of hard border will be needed to enter NI.

Peregrinus · 01-12-2016 08:50AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The most effective method would be to screen immigrants at ports and airports entering Ireland.

We can't, for reasons already explained. It would be illegal. EU nationals have a right to enter Ireland.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If the Irish government don't agree then some kind of hard border will be needed to enter NI.

Or, some kind of movement control between NI and GB - as was in place, I recall, under the UK's Prevention of Terrorism legislation in the 1980s and 90s, to support the UK's exclusion order regime. So we know it can be done. And, given the nature of the land border in Ireland versus the maritime border between Britain and Ireland, it's obviously going to be much easier to control movement over the latter than over the former.

01-12-2016 09:01AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Great in Great Britain means big.

Yourself and Freddie would want to sit down and explain this to all your fellow British nationalists who persist in seeking to "put the great back into Britain."

Putting the great back into Britain

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 09:12AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yourself and Freddie would want to sit down and explain this to all your fellow British nationalists who persist in seeking to "put the great back into Britain."

Putting the great back into Britain

Ok but that's not actually the etymology of Great Britain, it means big.

VinLieger · 01-12-2016 09:20AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ok but that's not actually the etymology of Great Britain, it means big.

Might wanna tell that to the majority of brexiters. ive definitely heard and seen "make britain great again" coming from them

VinLieger · 01-12-2016 09:22AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The most effective method would be to screen immigrants at ports and airports entering Ireland.

Which is impossible to do when we want to maintain access to the single market as you well know.

Its not up to us to solve the problems of your own making.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 09:29AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Might wanna tell that to the majority of brexiters. ive definitely heard and seen "make britain great again" coming from them

To be fair they'd probably say that anyway as evidenced by their cousins across the pond.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 09:30AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

We can't, for reasons already explained. It would be illegal. EU nationals have a right to enter Ireland.

Or, some kind of movement control between NI and GB - as was in place, I recall, under the UK's Prevention of Terrorism legislation in the 1980s and 90s, to support the UK's exclusion order regime. So we know it can be done. And, given the nature of the land border in Ireland versus the maritime border between Britain and Ireland, it's obviously going to be much easier to control movement over the latter than over the former.

VinLieger wrote: »

Which is impossible to do when we want to maintain access to the single market as you well know.

Its not up to us to solve the problems of your own making.

Then hard border it will most likely be.

And vinlieger you say it's not up to us to solve the UK's problems but this border is going to have to be patrolled on Ireland's side as well.

Anita Blow · 01-12-2016 09:37AM

I think ultimately economics will trump NI's pride. The UK will keep the open border between Ireland & NI and then simply check passports at the ports in Britain. Although Foster would kick up a fuss, ultimately a hard border would be devastating for NI which will already be suffering from Brexit as is, and the central government would be reluctant to stump up even more funds to make up the short fall if it can be avoided.

01-12-2016 09:43AM

The best solution will be for the EU to actively promote the reunification of this country as a means to secure the borders of the EU. Once again the Brits have us by the bollocks by continuing to occupy part of the country.

The whole issue of the North/border now is further evidence of how wrong the partitionist Free Staters like John Bruton/Brian Hayes have been when they claimed the existence of British rule doesn't affect the independence of the rest of Ireland. Businesses along the border and even in Dublin will once again bear testimony to how it undermines the Irish economy.

A bit of perspective: Exodus of 1 million French-Algerians in the final stage of French decolonisation of Algeria, 1962-1964

Peregrinus · 01-12-2016 09:45AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Then hard border it will most likely be.

And vinlieger you say it's not up to us to solve the UK's problems but this border is going to have to be patrolled on Ireland's side as well.

This is a bit like Trump saying that Mexico will pay for his wall. Why would Ireland need to patrol the border? We've no problem with people coming in from the UK and, as we're not part of Schengen, we've no commitment to keep people moving from the UK, through Ireland, to the rest of the EU.

Depending on whether the UK succeeds in negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU, and the terms of that agreement, Ireland may need to monitor goods crossing from NI to the Republic. But, people? I'm not seeing it.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 09:55AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is a bit like Trump saying that Mexico will pay for his wall. Why would Ireland need to patrol the border? We've no problem with people coming in from the UK and, as we're not part of Schengen, we've no commitment to keep people moving from the UK, through Ireland, to the rest of the EU.

Depending on whether the UK succeeds in negotiating a free trade agreement with the EU, and the terms of that agreement, Ireland may need to monitor goods crossing from NI to the Republic. But, people? I'm not seeing it.

Why would Ireland need to patrol the border?

1. To stop illegal immigrantion from the UK.
2. Because EU external borders have to be manned.
3. Even to moniter goods effectively requires more staff than we currently have. Smuggling is a joke in this country.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 09:57AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The best solution will be for the EU to actively promote the reunification of this country as a means to secure the borders of the EU. Once again the Brits have us by the bollocks by continuing to occupy part of the country.

The whole issue of the North/border now is further evidence of how wrong the partitionist Free Staters like John Bruton/Brian Hayes have been when they claimed the existence of British rule doesn't affect the independence of the rest of Ireland. Businesses along the border and even in Dublin will once again bear testimony to how it undermines the Irish economy.

A bit of perspective: Exodus of 1 million French-Algerians in the final stage of French decolonisation of Algeria, 1962-1964

The EU is never going to take a political position on NI notwithstanding your erroneous comparison with Algeria.

VinLieger · 01-12-2016 10:01AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would Ireland need to patrol the border?

1. To stop illegal immigrantion from the UK.

Thought all the illegal immigrants wanted in to the UK. Never heard a mention of illegal immigrants wanting to leave the UK to come to Ireland??

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

2. Because EU external borders have to be manned.

But if Britain man their external borders already we can just use them as an extra buffer, much like your arguing for them to use us

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

3. Even to moniter goods effectively requires more staff than we currently have. Smuggling is a joke in this country.

So you want to build a wall? The vast majority of smuggling happens on the countless roads and fields that cross the border in the middle of nowhere that are impossible to man 100% of the time

Peregrinus · 01-12-2016 10:02AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would Ireland need to patrol the border?

1. To stop illegal immigrantion from the UK.

This is only an issue if the UK admits people who are not allowed into Ireland, which it currently doesn't do. And since it seems to want to further restrict immigration, not loosen it up, it's not likely to be about to start

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

2. Because EU external borders have to be manned.

No, as far as people movements go it's the Schengen area borders that have to be manned, but Ireland is outside the Schengen area. Brexit doesn't necesstiate any change to the current arrangements for movement between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

3. Even to moniter goods effectively requires more staff than we currently have. Smuggling is a joke in this country.

We currently have no staff monitoring the border, mainly because we have learned over long years of experience that monitoring the border is not an effective way to tackle smuggling. Yes, if the UK throw enough of their toys out of the pram we may have to monitor the border in order to levy customs, etc, on goods imported into the EU from the UK. But I'm still hopeful that the British won't burn their trade arrangements quite to the ground. But, even if they do, that doesn't involve the Irish in policing movement of people across the border. That would be an exclusively UK preoccupation, as far as I can see.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2016 10:02AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The EU is never going to take a political position on NI notwithstanding your erroneous comparison with Algeria.

They don't do 'political' but they actively do 'encouragement' and 'incentive'.

The NI business and agricultural sectors will be the ones to suffer most from a hard border.
South of the border will cope with the hassle of it, the North will struggle. South and North will struggle to keep conflict from re-emerging.

Cards are stacking up for a simple solution to all this for everyone.

01-12-2016 10:08AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The EU is never going to take a political position on NI notwithstanding your erroneous comparison with Algeria.

You don't know that. Once again your inability - indeed refusal - to see the constant decline in Britain's position in both Ireland and Europe over the past 100 years is making you back the wrong horse out of a misguided emotional attachment.

And it's unsurprising that you wouldn't like the French-Algerian analogy. Far too close for comfort.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2016 10:09AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is only an issue if the UK admits people who are not allowed into Ireland, which it currently doesn't do. And since it seems to want to further restrict immigration, not loosen it up, it's not likely to be about to start

No, as far as people movements go it's the Schengen area borders that have to be manned, but Ireland is outside the Schengen area. Brexit doesn't necesstiate any change to the current arrangements for movement between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

We currently have no staff monitoring the border, mainly because we have learned over long years of experience that monitoring the border is not an effective way to tackle smuggling. Yes, if the UK throw enough of their toys out of the pram we may have to monitor the border in order to levy customs, etc, on goods imported into the EU from the UK. But I'm still hopeful that the British won't burn their trade arrangements quite to the ground. But, even if they do, that doesn't involve the Irish in policing movement of people across the border. That would be an exclusively UK preoccupation, as far as I can see.

Point of order: the Irish customs are active on the border.

VinLieger · 01-12-2016 10:12AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Point of order: the Irish customs are active on the border.

Not a constant 100% presence monitoring and checking every vehicle which is what IWF is seemingly advocating for.

They have found its far more effective to track sources and where things get delivered to than stop things at the border full stop

Peregrinus · 01-12-2016 10:13AM

Anita Blow wrote: »

I think ultimately economics will trump NI's pride. The UK will keep the open border between Ireland & NI and then simply check passports at the ports in Britain. Although Foster would kick up a fuss, ultimately a hard border would be devastating for NI which will already be suffering from Brexit as is, and the central government would be reluctant to stump up even more funds to make up the short fall if it can be avoided.

No. It would be politically unthinkable for the UK to implement Brexit on terms that require internal borders within the UK. First of all, this would be a massive confession of cluelessness and ineptitude on the par of Brexiters - how did they not foresee that Brexit would lead to this? And what politician ever confesses to being clueless and inept? Secondly, if internal borders withing the UK are acceptable, then the case for saying that Scotland must leave the EU an/or the EEA along with England (and indeed the case for saying that NI must) starts to evaporate, and they're not going down that road, thanks very much.

So, yes, trying to police the Irish border will be much more expensive, and much less effective, than controlling population movements across the Irish Sea. But that is nevertheless what they will do.

Unpossible · 01-12-2016 10:23AM

Can any of you see us joining the Schengen zone?

If the UK is going to insist on a hard BREXIT and a hard border then there is really no reason why we shouldn't join imo.

Peregrinus · 01-12-2016 10:27AM

Unpossible wrote: »

Can any of you see us joining the Schengen zone?

If the UK is going to insist on a hard BREXIT and a hard border then there is really no reason why we shouldn't join imo.

It would have to be a really hard Brexit before we would want to joint the Schengen zone, I think. We stayed out so as to preserve the CTA with the UK, and if we can preserve even a partial version of that then we'll want to do that, rather than join the Schengen zone.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2016 10:30AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Not a constant 100% presence monitoring and checking every vehicle which is what IWF is seemingly advocating for.

They have found its far more effective to track sources and where things get delivered to than stop things at the border full stop

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. It would be politically unthinkable for the UK to implement Brexit on terms that require internal borders within the UK. First of all, this would be a massive confession of cluelessness and ineptitude on the par of Brexiters - how did they not foresee that Brexit would lead to this? And what politician ever confesses to being clueless and inept? Secondly, if internal borders withing the UK are acceptable, then the case for saying that Scotland must leave the EU an/or the EEA along with England (and indeed the case for saying that NI must) starts to evaporate, and they're not going down that road, thanks very much.

So, yes, trying to police the Irish border will be much more expensive, and much less effective, than controlling population movements across the Irish Sea. But that is nevertheless what they will do.

They never really did 100% monitoring, they had border posts but they didn't stop every car crossing, you could still take a chance and many did.

They only time they did 100% monitoring (and that is what they will have to do to stop illegal immigration) was during the F&M crisis in 2001 and we all know how stringent and expensive that was.

Enzokk · 01-12-2016 10:37AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The most effective method would be to screen immigrants at ports and airports entering Ireland.

If the Irish government don't agree then some kind of hard border will be needed to enter NI.

Seems to me the "plan" is to have Ireland exit the EU as a direct result of the Brexit vote, this is because the only way to secure the borders between NI and the EU is to have Ireland give up on free movement of people and goods.

This is way too much of asking other people to sort out your own trouble. Seeing as NI voted to remain the people here were aware of the problems this would bring and to now try and force a solution where Ireland will give up on the EU because the minority in NI wanted to leave the EU is the opposite of what democracy is supposed to be. Then again when you have someone losing the popular vote by 3 million and still winning is it any wonder we find ourselves in a position where losers think they can be winners and people can have their cake and eat it too.

KindOfIrish · 01-12-2016 10:47AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

This is only an issue if the UK admits people who are not allowed into Ireland, which it currently doesn't do. And since it seems to want to further restrict immigration, not loosen it up, it's not likely to be about to start

UK already have at least a million of illegal immigrants from outside EU and hundreds of thousands "students" from Asia. If Brexit makes their live difficult, we can expect flood of illegals through NI.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 11:01AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't know that. Once again your inability - indeed refusal - to see the constant decline in Britain's position in both Ireland and Europe over the past 100 years is making you back the wrong horse out of a misguided emotional attachment.

And it's unsurprising that you wouldn't like the French-Algerian analogy. Far too close for comfort.

Yes I do, it's against their ethos.

You keep blabbering on about an imagined decline. All European countries have declined.

demfad · 01-12-2016 11:10AM

Anita Blow wrote: »

I think ultimately economics will trump NI's pride. The UK will keep the open border between Ireland & NI and then simply check passports at the ports in Britain. Although Foster would kick up a fuss, ultimately a hard border would be devastating for NI which will already be suffering from Brexit as is, and the central government would be reluctant to stump up even more funds to make up the short fall if it can be avoided.

I agree. However, effectively if the UK is outside the customs Union there would be a hard border through the Irish economy with country of origin issues and other regulatory differences. Also, if goods coming to the ROI from Scotland are not customed checked in NI then they must be checked at the border.

steddyeddy · 01-12-2016 11:16AM

I think presenting your passports once you reach the British mainland would eb the sensible thing to do.

Iwasfrozen · 01-12-2016 11:23AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think presenting your passports once you reach the British mainland would eb the sensible thing to do.

Of course you do. Thankfully the British are not going to abandon their own people.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2016 11:27AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course you do. Thankfully the British are not going to abandon their own people.

Your alternative is to put the cost and major disruption on the ROI?

Good luck with that one.
Let's see what Arlene has to say.
I mean she gave all this great intellectual rigour, didn't she? She didn't just pull a kneejerk, bigoted, playing to the rabble, stunt that has backfired spectacularly, did she?

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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