Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Dr Jakub · 27-11-2016 07:07PM

So I went out last night, got very drunk and started chatting to a girl who was pretty wasted. I got the shift and a bit of a feel. Wanted to bring her home but couldn't past the last minute resistance. There was no verbal consent, I don't even remember how it started. Am I supposed to feel bad?

Do I need feminism?

The Rape of Lucretia · 27-11-2016 07:38PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Now 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is an example of rape culture. I believe that would be called 'scraping the barrel'.

Where does that leave this all-time classic. To the tune of Madamina Il Catalogo E Questo, by Mozart :

My dear lady, this is a list
Of the beauties my master has loved;
a list which I have compiled;
Observe and read along with me.
In Italy six hundred and forty;
In Germany two hundred and thirty;
One hundred in France, in Turkey ninety-one;
But in Spain already one thousand and three.
Among these are peasants,
Waitresses, city girls,
Countesses, baronesses,
Marchionesses, princesses.
And women of all ranks,
On each form, of all ages.
The blonde girls he has the custom
Of praising their kindness,
In brunettes, their constancy,
In girls with white hair, their sweetness.
In Winter he prefers overweight girls,
In Summer, they're slim;
It is the tall girls he calls majestic,
The young girls are always charming.
He seduces the old women
For the pleasure of adding to the list.
His most favorite
Is the young beginner.
Whether rich or poor,
If she is bad, whether she is beautiful;
Provided she wears a skirt,
You know what he does.

Widdershins · 27-11-2016 07:45PM

Hang on, what? I just watched the video of Baby, it's cold outside. They are clearly being coy and teasing each other. Cerys starts out sweet and innocent but her inner bad girl comes out at the end. There's a difference between trying to charm a woman and trying to force her.

Try re-composing the song along more right on lines with Tom Jones formally seeking her consent..it doesn't work. There is such a thing as poetic license for songs etc

Dave_The_Sheep · 27-11-2016 07:46PM

Connacht2KXX wrote: »

... getting with a very drunk girl and emphasising how they will get screwed over by the law will definitely have some effect.

I hesitate even getting into this discussion, because it always ends badly, but ...

... I cannot for the life of me understand why two adults of differing sexes can go to a pub, get very drunk (seperately or together), go home (together), have sex and yet only one of them is incapable of consenting in that state.

I just can't fathom the difference there, legally.

Ralf and Florian · 27-11-2016 07:46PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Now 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is an example of rape culture. I believe that would be called 'scraping the barrel'.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/802528519452585984

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFJ7ie_yGU

Christ almighty :mad:

The Rape of Lucretia · 27-11-2016 07:47PM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I hesitate even getting into this discussion, because it always ends badly, but ...

... I cannot for the life of me understand why two adults of differing sexes can go to a pub, get very drunk (seperately or together), go home (together), have sex and yet only one of them is incapable of consenting in that state.

I just can't fathom the difference there, legally.

If both are drunk, it clearly needs to be treated equally - both raped each other, and both are guilty.

Dave_The_Sheep · 27-11-2016 07:52PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If both are drunk, it clearly needs to be treated equally - both raped each other, and both are guilty.

Tongue in cheek, I know, both or neither.

That's not the case though, at the moment.

I mean if drunken consent isn't consent, then I'm guilty of rape a few dozen/hundred times over (as are various ex's of mine).

Ulysses Gaze · 27-11-2016 07:56PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Now 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is an example of rape culture. I believe that would be called 'scraping the barrel'.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/802528519452585984

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MFJ7ie_yGU

Some of the focus on the twitter feed is on this line. Apparently.

The neighbors might think, baby, it's bad out there
Say, what's in this drink, no cabs to be had out there
I wish I knew how, your eyes are like starlight now
To break this spell, I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell

The problem is reading the lyrics without listening to the song and the tone it is sung in. By both male and female vocalists.

Louise and her cadre of followers are just reading the lyrics and coming to the most negative conclusion.

Robsweezie · 27-11-2016 08:43PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrjmODBiBLM

Wibbs · 27-11-2016 10:02PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Now 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is an example of rape culture. I believe that would be called 'scraping the barrel'.

Oh wait… I thought we'd hit maximum cretin, but apparently not. Jesus H Christ. How cosseted and surrounded by daftness, internal and external would one have to be to buy into that level of retard?

Poor Uncle Tom · 27-11-2016 10:10PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh wait… I thought we'd hit maximum cretin, but apparently not. Jesus H Christ. How cosseted and surrounded by daftness, internal and external would one have to be to buy into that level of retard?

How long until it transfers to Wile E Coyote and the Roadrunner?........:rolleyes:

27-11-2016 10:28PM

What does she and her ilk, think of the songs Rihanna, Beyoncé etc come out with, are we going to ban now Marvin Gaye's lets get it on now as there was no consent indicated

FortySeven · 27-11-2016 10:34PM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

What does she and her ilk, think of the songs Rihanna, Beyoncé etc come out with, are we going to ban now Marvin Gaye's lets get it on now as there was no consent indicated

Marvin is currently working on the remastred version.

Please may we get it on?

mcmoustache · 27-11-2016 11:55PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If both are drunk, it clearly needs to be treated equally - both raped each other, and both are guilty.

This is the only logical way of looking at it.

RonFan · 28-11-2016 01:25AM

Going by the feminist's definition seemingly sex is more or less only consensual when it is instigated by the woman. It is very important to understand how this is an utterly untenable position. For women sexual enjoyment has much to do with the sacrifice of control. 'The man taking charge' is part and parcel of the ritual of sex. A woman may enjoy the act in the moment because she was in a certain mental 'mode' but afterwards upon re-switching to her usual state have regret and decide it was rape.

There is no way of proving rape whatsoever (in the vast majority of instances) unless a legal situation is established where the woman is always presumed innocent or if some other nonsense like "consent forms" are mandated.

RonFan · 28-11-2016 01:57AM

These problems are arising due to a very complex conglomeration of issues relating to the breakdown of traditional value systems. While it's true that Europeans were sexually repressed for many centuries, this was due to a weak religious system and does not mean that constraint in general regarding sex is synonymous with repression. From an in depth reading of human cultures, it seems that Christianity artificially imposed via force a moral order which would have otherwise came to be organically. Some 'feudal' tendencies in individuals that were repressed way back when the artificial order was sanctioned have now re-emerged in the modern period corresponding with it's break down, namely impulsiveness including in relation to sex.

If one is sitting in an airplane and the person in front annoyingly tilts back their seat, you will in turn need to do so and then the person behind you will, and the person behind them etc. Likewise if no other men were getting casual sex, no man would desire it. Promiscuity is simply a form of social entropy that does no good and is merely a sign of collective cohesive breakdown.

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 02:10AM

RonFan wrote: »

Going by the feminist's definition seemingly sex is more or less only consensual when it is instigated by the woman. It is very important to understand how this is an utterly untenable position. For women sexual enjoyment has much to do with the sacrifice of control. 'The man taking charge' is part and parcel of the ritual of sex. A woman may enjoy the act in the moment because she was in a certain mental 'mode' but afterwards upon re-switching to her usual state have regret and decide it was rape.

There is no way of proving rape whatsoever (in the vast majority of instances) unless a legal situation is established where the woman is always presumed innocent or if some other nonsense like "consent forms" are mandated.

Horsesh!t

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 02:11AM

RonFan wrote: »

These problems are arising due to a very complex conglomeration of issues relating to the breakdown of traditional value systems. While it's true that Europeans were sexually repressed for many centuries, this was due to a weak religious system and does not mean that constraint in general regarding sex is synonymous with repression. From an in depth reading of human cultures, it seems that Christianity artificially imposed via force a moral order which would have otherwise came to be organically. Some 'feudal' tendencies in individuals that were repressed way back when the artificial order was sanctioned have now re-emerged in the modern period corresponding with it's break down, namely impulsiveness including in relation to sex.

If one is sitting in an airplane and the person in front annoyingly tilts back their seat, you will in turn need to do so and then the person behind you will, and the person behind them etc. Likewise if no other men were getting casual sex, no man would desire it. Promiscuity is simply a form of social entropy that does no good and is merely a sign of collective cohesive breakdown.

Double Horsesh!t.

RonFan · 28-11-2016 02:18AM

Advbrd wrote: »

Horsesh!t

Advbrd wrote: »

Double Horsesh!t.

A feminist rule is that if you've got an echo chamber you can avoid actually addressing the argument at hand so in this instance because you've no argument against what I'm saying you've used a loop hole created and one for yourself. Well done.

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 02:27AM

RonFan wrote: »

A feminist rule is that if you've got an echo chamber you can avoid actually addressing the argument at hand so in this instance because you've no argument against what I'm saying you've used a loop hole created and one for yourself. Well done.

Triple Horsesh!t.

FortySeven · 28-11-2016 02:31AM

Advbrd wrote: »

Triple Horsesh!t.

To be fair to the other fella, your argument really is pretty sh/tty.

Outlaw Pete · 28-11-2016 02:44AM

Advbrd wrote: »

Horsesh!t

Advbrd wrote: »

Double Horsesh!t.

Advbrd wrote: »

Triple Horsesh!t.

I think you've confused Boards with Twatter.

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 02:56AM

FortySeven wrote: »

To be fair to the other fella, your argument really is pretty sh/tty.

Ok, lets start again with the first post:

What is this "feminist's definition"? So all sex not instigated by the woman is rape? So a woman has to sacrifice control to enjoy sex? The man has to take charge? Mental mode, has her jollies, change of mind, rape? What part of "horsesh1t" do you not understand?

I do agree that rape is near impossible to prove, that's about the only tenable statement made.

Dave_The_Sheep · 28-11-2016 03:37AM

Advbrd wrote: »

Ok, lets start again with the first post:

What is this "feminist's definition"? So all sex not instigated by the woman is rape? So a woman has to sacrifice control to enjoy sex? The man has to take charge? Mental mode, has her jollies, change of mind, rape? What part of "horsesh1t" do you not understand?

I do agree that rape is near impossible to prove, that's about the only tenable statement made.

Advbrd wrote: »

I do agree that rape is near impossible to prove, that's about the only tenable statement made.

As someone who hasn't engaged yet on either side... I have no ****ing idea what you're trying to say at all.

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 03:40AM

RonFan wrote: »

These problems are arising due to a very complex conglomeration of issues relating to the breakdown of traditional value systems. While it's true that Europeans were sexually repressed for many centuries, this was due to a weak religious system and does not mean that constraint in general regarding sex is synonymous with repression. From an in depth reading of human cultures, it seems that Christianity artificially imposed via force a moral order which would have otherwise came to be organically. Some 'feudal' tendencies in individuals that were repressed way back when the artificial order was sanctioned have now re-emerged in the modern period corresponding with it's break down, namely impulsiveness including in relation to sex.

If one is sitting in an airplane and the person in front annoyingly tilts back their seat, you will in turn need to do so and then the person behind you will, and the person behind them etc. Likewise if no other men were getting casual sex, no man would desire it. Promiscuity is simply a form of social entropy that does no good and is merely a sign of cohesive breakdown.

Ok, fortyseven and our favourite outlaw are not happy,
Perhaps you could enlighten me by sharing your knowledge:
What are the traditional value systems that we are so sorely lacking and what are the problems to which you refer? I cannot claim to understand the correlation between a "weak religious system" and sexual repression. Europeans being sexually repressed for many centuries? Impulsive feudal tendencies? Artificial order? Impulsiveness? So we are all animals and want to go out and rape and pillage? I disagree.

The plane scenario: I will tilt back regardless of the seat in front, heads up, that' s what it is designed to do. Re casual sex,I must admit it really is not that regular these days for me but coming out with the following statement is pure and utter "horsesh!t" "Likewise if no other men were getting casual sex, no man would desire it." What???? Really, What??? "Promiscuity is simply a form of social entropy that does no good and is merely a sign of collective blah blah..." again what???

I summarised it by posting "horsesh!t".

Advbrd · 28-11-2016 03:48AM

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

As someone who hasn't engaged yet on either side... I have no ****ing idea what you're trying to say at all.

No worries Dave, Just responding to another indecipherable post to which I initially posted "horsesh!t" but to which i felt I needed to elaborate. Anyway, orig post from RonFan below.

RonFan wrote: »

Going by the feminist's definition seemingly sex is more or less only consensual when it is instigated by the woman. It is very important to understand how this is an utterly untenable position. For women sexual enjoyment has much to do with the sacrifice of control. 'The man taking charge' is part and parcel of the ritual of sex. A woman may enjoy the act in the moment because she was in a certain mental 'mode' but afterwards upon re-switching to her usual state have regret and decide it was rape.

There is no way of proving rape whatsoever (in the vast majority of instances) unless a legal situation is established where the woman is always presumed innocent or if some other nonsense like "consent forms" are mandated.

Dave_The_Sheep · 28-11-2016 04:11AM

Advbrd wrote: »

No worries Dave, Just responding to another indecipherable post to which I initially posted "horsesh!t" but to which i felt I needed to elaborate. Anyway, orig post from RonFan below.

No his/her post was decipherable. I don't agree in the slightest with it, but that's not the point. That post was at least understandable and you realise that maybe that poster has underlying issues by which you judge the rest of his/her posting history, should one choose to look it up.

Yours wasn't. That was just ... nothing.

I understand you probably don't care. That's fine. But the rest of us don't either, especialy when a post isn't worth caring about. A slight bit more of an argument would likely help.

gizmo555 · 28-11-2016 08:44AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Now 'Baby It's Cold Outside' is an example of rape culture. I believe that would be called 'scraping the barrel'.

Let's hope she doesn't come across Have Some Madeira M'Dear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_zi8n4HDQ

kunst nugget · 28-11-2016 09:40AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

The problem is reading the lyrics without listening to the song and the tone it is sung in. By both male and female vocalists.

Louise and her cadre of followers are just reading the lyrics and coming to the most negative conclusion.

Tbf, I was listening to that song recently and I laughed at that drink line and said that sounds kind of rapey in a modern context. Just like that Gary Puckett and the Union Gap's 'Young Girl' sounds very paedo or Blondie's 'One Way or Another' sounds like a very unhealthy stalker. Didn't send me into a moral panic though or feel the need to tell the Twitter world how scandalised I was.

It's probably because I was still too faint after a young lady showed me her ankles.

Mortpourvelo · 28-11-2016 11:09AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

It's probably because I was still too faint after a young lady showed me her ankles.

Both ankles ??

The shameless Jezebel!!!!

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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