How do you define someone who is Irish? (multiple choice poll)

Avatar MIA · 26-11-2016 01:14PM

me_right_one wrote: »

I would consider the famine the cutoff. If your people directly ancestral to you lived through the famine, then you're Irish.

Why the famine?

In the future should it be when Ireland qualified for the Euros under Jack Charlton or when Ireland first won the Eurovision?

Were there Irish people before the famine?

MadDog76 · 26-11-2016 01:14PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

For me, in order for somebody to be truly Irish then they must be born and raised in Ireland to two Irish parents who were also born and raised in Ireland and have Irish Grandparents etc. ........ your poll doesn't include that option fully.

Skommando wrote: »

What's an 'actually Irish' person ?

See above .........

26-11-2016 01:16PM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

What about someone born and bred in Ireland to English parents? I know a few of them, went through the education system here, involved in local GAA clubs, learnt Irish etc.

Would they not be Irish, even if they hold Irish citizenship?

It really depends which culture they embrace, does it not?

dudara wrote: »

What if someone chooses Ireland as their country, settles here, has a family here, pays taxes here and becomes naturalised?

There's a big difference between being ethnically Irish and being legally Irish, but both are valid!

True.
Half the arguing that will develop here is about the legal vs cultural definition of "Irish".

Solomon Pleasant wrote: »

Because the vast majority of Irish people seem to think that it's some kind of honour to be able to call yourself Irish and it's not. It's just another fact about them like their name, age etc.

You don't have to answer to suit my sensitivity means that you can't answer because your view of being Irish is the more common one, one that is dominated by opinions, whereas mine in simple fact and logic and therefore correct.

Your definition of Irish is the legal one.

The cultural/sense of identity is a lot more complex.

For example, a child born in Ireland to two parents of Nationality X will embrace parts of both cultures.
A child born in Ireland to Irish parents is Irish.

Then you have people who have lived here for 2-3 generations who still adhere to the customs and culture of their Country of origin.
They're legally Irish - but they don't conform to Irish culture and customs, and indeed, may or may not consider themselves "fully" Irish, but Irish of "X" descent....

TLDR? There's no easy, accurate definition of "Irish". It's complicated!

Skommando · 26-11-2016 01:17PM

me_right_one wrote: »

If your people directly ancestral to you lived through the famine, then you're Irish.

And what if said person wan'ts nothing to do with Ireland, or any association with it, and they are their family consider their new country their nationality and identity ? Should people living in Ireland who's great grandparents moved here from England in the mid 1800's be considered English ?

The Backwards Man · 26-11-2016 01:18PM

PucaMama wrote: »

You want me to provide full family history yet you are willing to accept some person born here with no Irish blood as 100 percent Irish. Bull****.

Another poster said can you trace your family to before the famine. I can.

You're the one claiming to be 'pure' Irish, not me.:)

There was a lot of people from a lot of countries wandering about this island prior to the famine(s), you might have read about them in history books, there's a very good chance your 'pure' Irish blood might have a wee dash of some of those in it, sorry to tell you.

Skommando · 26-11-2016 01:18PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

See above .........

So what exactly is the difference between being Irish and an Irish citizen ?

Are you trying to claim that Irish citizens are not Irish ?

NoFreeGaffs · 26-11-2016 01:20PM

If an Irish married couple went on a work assignment to Beijing and had a child born there, would we consider the child to be Chinese or Irish?

Most would say Irish.

Avatar MIA · 26-11-2016 01:21PM

mulbot wrote: »

The point being,that I think there's far more to be considered other than your two points of ,If you move to a country at a young age, and If you go to school there.

I think someone moving here at an early stage, having to learn Irish at school, have to take the wonder that is the Irish Leaving cert makes someone more Irish than simply because their ancestor survived the famine in Ireland. What the actual Fcuk has that got to do with anything.

What makes someone more Irish, because their ancestors managed to scrounge a living in 1849 compared to someone brought up their entire life in today's vastly different Ireland?

PucaMama · 26-11-2016 01:22PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You're the one claiming to be 'pure' Irish, not me.:)

There was a lot of people from a lot of countries wandering about this island prior to the famine(s), you might have read about them in history books, there's a very good chance your 'pure' Irish blood might have a wee dash of some of those in it, sorry to tell you.

Is it me or you that introduced the word "pure" ?

We all have blood of former invaders etc like we have the same parts of DNA in common with people who are nothing to do with us. That's nature. However we are born and raised Irish. Generations of Irish culture. That's just how it is.

mulbot · 26-11-2016 01:23PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

I think someone moving here at an early stage, having to learn Irish at school, have to take the wonder that is the Irish Leaving cert makes someone more Irish than simply because their ancestor survived the famine in Ireland. What the actual Fcuk has that got to do with anything.

What makes someone more Irish, because their ancestors managed to scrounge a living in 1849 compared to someone brought up their entire life in today's Ireland?

What are you on about?-I didn't post any of that about famines etc

me_right_one · 26-11-2016 01:23PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Why the famine?

In the future should it be when Ireland qualified for the Euros under Jack Charlton or when Ireland first won the Eurovision?

Were there Irish people before the famine?

Why not the famine? It is one of the biggest events in recent history that didnt discriminate in terms of origin. If your ancestors had some norman or viking blood (eg. surname Fitzgerald or McLaughlin) and they suffered through the famine just like an O'Reilly or a McCarthy, then I believe that should be the point at which these foreigners are taken to be Irish. Maybe not Gaelic, but Irish.

Then of course, every one of YOUR ancestors would have to be Gaelic/Irish since the famine, AND you would have to be born here to make YOU Irish.

26-11-2016 01:24PM

Skommando wrote: »

And what if said person wan'ts nothing to do with Ireland, or any association with it, and they are their family consider their new country their nationality and identity ? Should people living in Ireland who's great grandparents moved here from England in the mid 1800's be considered English ?

Er, I don't want to start a s**tstorm here, but, plenty of people in that situation consider themselves English....
Others consider themselves Irish of English descent, and others consider themselves Irish..

It's all about integration, and a lot (not all, mind you!) of integration is about choices the parents make in the values/customs they teach their children.

The Backwards Man · 26-11-2016 01:24PM

NoFreeGaffs wrote: »

If an Irish married couple went on a work assignment to Beijing and had a child born there, would we consider the child to be Chinese or Irish?

Most would say Irish.

If the midwife could prove her ancestry back to the First Opium War then the kid would be Chinese.

me_right_one · 26-11-2016 01:24PM

Skommando wrote: »

And what if said person wan'ts nothing to do with Ireland, or any association with it, and they are their family consider their new country their nationality and identity ? Should people living in Ireland who's great grandparents moved here from England in the mid 1800's be considered English ?

Well, yes. Of english decent.

NoFreeGaffs · 26-11-2016 01:27PM

A child born to two Irish parents living in China would not be considered Chinese by anyone. Let's be honest. Say the opposite and it's racist!

Avatar MIA · 26-11-2016 01:29PM

mulbot wrote: »

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What are you on about?-I didn't post any of that about famines etc

I know you didn't, others did.

Avatar MIA · 26-11-2016 01:33PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Why not the famine? It is one of the biggest events in recent history that didnt discriminate in terms of origin. If your ancestors had some norman or viking blood (eg. surname Fitzgerald or McLaughlin) and they suffered through the famine just like an O'Reilly or a McCarthy, then I believe that should be the point at which these foreigners are taken to be Irish. Maybe not Gaelic, but Irish.

Then of course, every one of YOUR ancestors would have to be Gaelic/Irish since the famine, AND you would have to be born here to make YOU Irish.

So, anyone who's ancestors are "only" here since 1853 are, what, only blow ins? And I thought Maddog was bonkers. :pac:

selous · 26-11-2016 01:36PM

A Polish guy I work with has 2 children both born in Ireland, He says they're not Irish they're Polish, they have Polish passports, But, he says they have the Irish accent from going to school, legally Irish, ethnically Polish, who defines it?

me_right_one · 26-11-2016 01:36PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

So, anyone who's ancestors are "only" here since 1853 are, what, only blow ins? And I thought Maddog was bonkers. :pac:

Who called them blow-ins? I certainly didnt. But to say they are not part english, or of english decent is just stupid.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally avatar mia. Why is that?

Avatar MIA · 26-11-2016 01:39PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Who called them blow-ins? I certainly didnt. But to say they are not part english, or of english decent is just stupid.

You seem to be taking this a bit personally avatar mia. Why is that?

I just hate stupidity. Saying someone who's ancestors that could be potentially here for over 164 years are only part Irish is really strange to put it mildly.

Frigating · 26-11-2016 01:47PM

My two cents:

My parents are from London. I have a strong English accent. I am a British citizen.
However, I was born and have lived my entire life in Ireland. Can't remember ever having been in England. I went through the Irish education system and learned as much Irish grammar and history as the leaving cert could hammer into me. I am entitled to an Irish citizenship and would get it if it wasn't so expensive. I have no connections to England other than my accent. I'm having rashers and shpuds and cabbage for dinner tonight. I have embrace more Irish culture than English. If someone asks me, online or in person, my nationality, I say Irish.

If someone is just born in X place, that doesn't make them X nationality. But if they live there their whole lives, learn a bit of the language, discard their old culture in favour of the new one, can you say they don't have a claim to the nationality?

MadDog76 · 26-11-2016 01:48PM

Skommando wrote: »

So what exactly is the difference between being Irish and an Irish citizen ?

Are you trying to claim that Irish citizens are not Irish ?

Is that a serious question!??!!

andekwarhola · 26-11-2016 01:52PM

Technically I guess it's anybody born in Ireland but you have edge categories that should be included, like people born to Irish people outside of Ireland that have lived here most or all of their life and identify as Irish.

MadDog76 · 26-11-2016 01:53PM

Frigating wrote: »

My two cents:

My parents are from London. I have a strong English accent. I am a British citizen.
However, I was born and have lived my entire life in Ireland. Can't remember ever having been in England. I went through the Irish education system and learned as much Irish grammar and history as the leaving cert could hammer into me. I am entitled to an Irish citizenship and would get it if it wasn't so expensive. I have no connections to England other than my accent. I'm having rashers and shpuds and cabbage for dinner tonight. I have embrace more Irish culture than English. If someone asks me, online or in person, my nationality, I say Irish.

If someone is just born in X place, that doesn't make them X nationality. But if they live there their whole lives, learn a bit of the language, discard their old culture in favour of the new one, can you say they don't have a claim to the nationality?

Out of curiosity, how did you acquire a strong English accent?

andekwarhola · 26-11-2016 01:55PM

Frigating wrote: »

My two cents:

My parents are from London. I have a strong English accent. I am a British citizen.
However, I was born and have lived my entire life in Ireland. Can't remember ever having been in England. I went through the Irish education system and learned as much Irish grammar and history as the leaving cert could hammer into me. I am entitled to an Irish citizenship and would get it if it wasn't so expensive. I have no connections to England other than my accent. I'm having rashers and shpuds and cabbage for dinner tonight. I have embrace more Irish culture than English. If someone asks me, online or in person, my nationality, I say Irish.

If someone is just born in X place, that doesn't make them X nationality. But if they live there their whole lives, learn a bit of the language, discard their old culture in favour of the new one, can you say they don't have a claim to the nationality?

Find it hard to believe you were born in Ireland and lived here all your life and have an English accent, unless it's consciously cultivated?

That's not meant as derogatory, just find it puzzling.

Frigating · 26-11-2016 01:55PM

My parents are English. Picked it up off them, and never developed an Irish accent. Can't even do one now, don't know why.

Might be partly because I'm so used to hearing the Irish accent it sounds 'normal' to me and I never notice it, whereas if I hear someone with a foreign accent (even English) I pick up on it.

A Dub in Glasgo · 26-11-2016 02:01PM

There is enough bolloxology in this thread to last a lifetime

diomed · 26-11-2016 02:02PM

I would pick the first three options, but does that mean those people are not Irish?.
Top marks for the most confusing poll ever.

donegal. · 26-11-2016 02:05PM

NoFreeGaffs wrote: »

A child born to two Irish parents living in China would not be considered Chinese by anyone. Let's be honest. Say the opposite and it's racist!

i definitely wouldn't consider the Irish .

I've a lot of friends and relatives that moved to america years ago , all married (mostly to other irish) and settled there with kids.

now these people follow all the gaa, irish news, read the local papers ect .
But their kids couldn't possible be more american. Even though their parents play gaa they all play basketball/baseball. One of my mates kids is a quarterback and his sister is a cheerleader(they're only about 10 but still).

Idon't care how irish their parents are these kids are 100% NOT irish.

Pherekydes · 26-11-2016 02:06PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

For me, in order for somebody to be truly Irish then they must be born and raised in Ireland to two Irish parents who were also born and raised in Ireland and have Irish Grandparents etc. ........ your poll doesn't include that option fully.

You do realise that humans didn't evolve spontaneously in Ireland? At some point in time humans migrated here. By your definition, they were not Irish and nor were their children or their children or their children or their children etc etc ad infinitum.

How do you define someone who is Irish? (multiple choice poll)

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