Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2016 10:55AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think it's good a re-unification is being discussed by every party and not just one. Partition was only meant to be temporary anyway.

Finally, an Irish leader seems to be angling for a proper debate about this.
Most here in Ireland would be more or less ready to debate this, I think the opportunity Brexit offers is the chance of engaging London in a serious discussion (without the vainglorious union spin) about the realities of the future for NI.
I believe the overwhelming feeling in London would chime with Thatcher's back in the 80's and would expand on the tacit message they gave in signing the GFA (which Unionists aren't prepared to listen to yet)
If that message was heard (and I think that should be Kenny's goal here) then a few hearts and minds might begin to change.

dinorebel · 25-11-2016 12:11PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I know nothing about USA but I've been following Brexit debate very closely and spent significant time in UK in the last 3 years due to business commitments. And I'd like to tell you that they don't need to elect fascist government, they have one.

You have a very limited knowledge of history if you think the UK government is even close to being fascist I'm no fan of the Tories but that's a ridiculous statement to make.

dinorebel · 25-11-2016 12:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have always been of the opinion that it won't necessarily be developments on this island that will bring about a UI.
The attitude shift required to have a FG Taoiseach talking about this is quite seismic imo.
How far away are we from having a proper 2 island debate and detailed look at what is involved?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-brexit-could-bring-about-united-ireland-1.2881284

Always felt Sinn Fein missed a trick by wanting an all Ireland vote think they would of been massively surprised on the outcome of a UK and Ireland vote.

Fratton Fred · 25-11-2016 12:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Finally, an Irish leader seems to be angling for a proper debate about this.
Most here in Ireland would be more or less ready to debate this, I think the opportunity Brexit offers is the chance of engaging London in a serious discussion (without the vainglorious union spin) about the realities of the future for NI.
I believe the overwhelming feeling in London would chime with Thatcher's back in the 80's and would expand on the tacit message they gave in signing the GFA (which Unionists aren't prepared to listen to yet)
If that message was heard (and I think that should be Kenny's goal here) then a few hearts and minds might begin to change.

maybe. Ultimately though, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide. WIthout their support (which lets face it, even the most die hard republicans aren't sure about) then the status quo will remain regardless of what either government want.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 12:17PM

dinorebel wrote: »

Always felt Sinn Fein missed a trick by wanting an all Ireland vote think they would of been massively surprised on the outcome of a UK and Ireland vote.

The UK would get rid of it in a second. The highest unemployment of all of the countries in the UK and run in part by someone who bragged about killing British soldiers. Not that they don't deserve to clean up some of the mess they created.

It also serves as consolation that we're not under British rule anymore. Compare the economies of northern and the Republic of Ireland and see who made a better job of running the country.

I think the British are nearly as much to victims of colonialism as their colonies were.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 12:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe. Ultimately though, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide. WIthout their support (which lets face it, even the most die hard republicans aren't sure about) then the status quo will remain regardless of what either government want.

Loyalists in Northern Ireland aren't the most progressive of people, so convincing them is out IMHO. I think we need to convince the moderates in both camps that reunification is a good thing.

ohnonotgmail · 25-11-2016 12:19PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe. Ultimately though, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide. WIthout their support (which lets face it, even the most die hard republicans aren't sure about) then the status quo will remain regardless of what either government want.

and the people in the republic to decide. you cant take their agreement as a given.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2016 12:21PM

dinorebel wrote: »

You have a very limited knowledge of history if you think the UK government is even close to being fascist I'm no fan of the Tories but that's a ridiculous statement to make.

Amateur Fascists - Aspirational Fascists maybe?
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/technology/your-entire-internet-history-to-be-viewable-by-psni-taxman-dwp-and-food-standards-agency-and-other-government-bodies-within-weeks-35242522.html

dinorebel · 25-11-2016 12:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The UK would get rid of it in a second. The highest unemployment of all of the countries in the UK and run in part by someone who bragged about killing British soldiers. Not that they don't deserve to clean up some of the mess they created.

It also serves as consolation that we're not under British rule anymore. Compare the economies of northern and the Republic of Ireland and see who made a better job of running the country.

I think the British are nearly as much to victims of colonialism as their colonies were.

To be fair I think a lot of the economic problems in the North are down to the Troubles and the subsequent lack of investment. I live in Donegal and trust me nobody brags about how great the Irish economy is around here.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 12:27PM

dinorebel wrote: »

To be fair I think a lot of the economic problems in the North are down to the Troubles and the subsequent lack of investment. I live in Donegal and trust me nobody brags about how great the Irish economy is around here.

Yes to both counts. The troubles were always going to happen and the British didn't help things. The lack of investment could have easily been solved.

The economy of rural areas isn't great but at least farmers in Donegal will be getting their EU grants. Farmers just a few miles over the border won't be.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2016 12:30PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe. Ultimately though, it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide. WIthout their support (which lets face it, even the most die hard republicans aren't sure about) then the status quo will remain regardless of what either government want.

The huge fear and suspicion of the south of the previous few decades is gone among any Unionists I know (and I would know quite a few)
I think minds are opening on this subject. And I think critical is what London's opinion really is when hardy comes to hardy (see Thatcher for instance)
I believe that is why Arlene and the hardliners do not want to go next or near an open and transparent debate on the subject. They know that they may win a vote now but the damage that would be done to a hardline position if it was revealed and openly discussed that the British have no long term interest or no real empathy or connection to NI then that would cause the middle ground to start thinking about the best future for them.

Personally I believe the British clearly indicated what they feel (no strategic interest in NI) in the GFA. It is just that Unionism has not yet publically faced up to it.
I think Brexit may be the outside event that causes that to happen

Junkyard Tom · 25-11-2016 12:43PM

It's remarkable that FG'ers are actually talking about a UI and have ditched this bullshit appeasement of 'Unionist fears'.

Unpossible · 25-11-2016 12:47PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and the people in the republic to decide. you cant take their agreement as a given.

This seems to be forgotten in conversations on the north. Do people in the republic want reunification? It will take a lot to convince me to vote for a united Ireland. I don't think it's worth it.

On the BREXIT front Malta's PM says no free movement = no access to the single market.
link.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 12:51PM

Well the country overwhelmingly voted for non moderate nationalist parties in 1917 and for some reason the British thought it would be a good idea to create a separate country for the vast minority. They gerrymandered it so that even in countries with nationalist majorities (Derry) nationalist politics would be underrepresented. As a result of sectarian division and partition it was the setting of intense discrimination against Catholics that was used by South Africa's then government to justify their discrimination policy.

That's the past but you have to ask yourself how in the name of feck did they think that would work as a state.

You get the same unionists complaining when the SNP suggests leaving after Scotland will be dragged out of the union (EU) against its will.

Do we give independence to those regions in Scotland that also voted to for Scottish independence. Do we give the minority who voted to remain their own country?

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 12:55PM

Unpossible wrote: »

This seems to be forgotten in conversations on the north. Do people in the republic want reunification? It will take a lot to convince me to vote for a united Ireland. I don't think it's worth it.

On the BREXIT front Malta's PM says no free movement = no access to the single market.
link.

Seen that from the Maltese politician. I think that fact has to be beaten into the Brexitiers.

ohnonotgmail · 25-11-2016 12:56PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the country overwhelmingly voted for non moderate nationalist parties in 1917 and for some reason the British thought it would be a good idea to create a separate country for the vast minority. They gerrymandered it so that even in countries with nationalist majorities (Derry) nationalist politics would be underrepresented. As a result of sectarian division and partition it was the setting of intense discrimination against Catholics that was used by South Africa's then government to justify their discrimination policy.

That's the past but you have to ask yourself how in the name of feck did they think that would work as a state.

You get the same unionists complaining when the SNP suggests leaving after Scotland will be dragged out of the union (EU) against its will.

Do we give independence to those regions in Scotland that also voted to for Scottish independence. Do we give the minority who voted to remain their own country?

not so much dragged out but an independent scotland would have to negotiate entry into the EU. they would not be admitted automatically.

ohnonotgmail · 25-11-2016 12:58PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Seen that from the Maltese politician. I think that fact has to be beaten into the Brexitiers.

probably just a bit of political maneuvering from them to try and get concessions on something else.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2016 01:01PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

not so much dragged out but an independent scotland would have to negotiate entry into the EU. they would not be admitted automatically.

I don't see many obstacles to an independent Scotland joining.

FrancieBrady · 25-11-2016 01:02PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

It's remarkable that FG'ers are actually talking about a UI and have ditched this bullshit appeasement of 'Unionist fears'.

I'm amazed, I thought they would be the last to speak of it.

Changed times indeed.

ohnonotgmail · 25-11-2016 01:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't see many obstacles to an independent Scotland joining.

In principle neither do i. But it would not automatically join the EU on independence.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 01:08PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

In principle neither do i. But it would not automatically join the EU on independence.

No but I think an Independent Scotland is a good thing. It would do well to remove itself from the isolationist view going on in the UK at the moment.

catbear · 25-11-2016 01:16PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

In principle neither do i. But it would not automatically join the EU on independence.

Why not? A50 gets triggered, clock starting ticking, second independence ballot gets scheduled for before the end of A50 process.

Scotland votes to leave the UK. A50 process ends on a friday, scotland applies for EU membership in its own right on the monday.

Scotland would have to commit to the EU, it's forgotten now but back at the last vote they were on about retaining UK exemptions like their own floating currency.

Fratton Fred · 25-11-2016 01:22PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the country overwhelmingly voted for non moderate nationalist parties in 1917

Did they?

A Little Pony · 25-11-2016 01:22PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have always been of the opinion that it won't necessarily be developments on this island that will bring about a UI.
The attitude shift required to have a FG Taoiseach talking about this is quite seismic imo.
How far away are we from having a proper 2 island debate and detailed look at what is involved?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-brexit-could-bring-about-united-ireland-1.2881284

why wouldn't he? Enda has been under pressure since day one and has generally been a pretty ineffectual Taoiseach. If he can latch on to a topic like this, he looks like a hero.

As if the Irish political establishment have any notion of calling for it. Enda Kenny is an idiot.

ohnonotgmail · 25-11-2016 01:24PM

catbear wrote: »

Why not? A50 gets triggered, clock starting ticking, second independence ballot gets scheduled for before the end of A50 process.

Scotland votes to leave the UK. A50 process ends on a friday, scotland applies for EU membership in its own right on the monday.

Scotland would have to commit to the EU, it's forgotten now but back at the last vote they were on about retaining UK exemptions like their own floating currency.

there isnt a hope in hell of that happening. If they trigger A50 in march as they have said they have to be finished by march 2019. May has enough on her plate without allowing another vote on scottish independence.

but even supposing everything happens as you suggest there is nothing automatic about the process of an independent scotland joining the EU.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 01:25PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Did they?

Ah please Fred. Not British history 101. 1918. The fact is the majority of the country was nationalist.

A Little Pony · 25-11-2016 01:30PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Did they?

Ah please Fred. Not British history 101. 1918. The fact is the majority of the country was nationalist.

You probably mean Catholic, most Irish people aren't Nationalist and don't give a toss about it.

Junkyard Tom · 25-11-2016 01:31PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

As if the Irish political establishment have any notion of calling for it. Enda Kenny is an idiot.

Nobody cares about trying to appease people like you. Get with the times or become irrelevant.

A Little Pony · 25-11-2016 01:36PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

As if the Irish political establishment have any notion of calling for it. Enda Kenny is an idiot.

Nobody cares about trying to appease people like you. Get with the times or become irrelevant.

Never met a Unionist in my life who would even contemplate it. I think Nationalists delude themselves thinking the Unionist population can be convinced.

steddyeddy · 25-11-2016 01:39PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Nobody cares about trying to appease people like you. Get with the times or become irrelevant.

This exactly. Partition catered to the unionists and gave them a platform to spout whatever nonsense. My uncle in the SDLP had to deal with them during the civil rights movement and thought appeasing them was a bad move.

For instance Sammy Wilson backed a UDA paper calling for ethnic cleansing in Northern Ireland. He added : "[it] shows that some loyalist paramilitaries are looking ahead and contemplating what needs to be done to maintain our separate Ulster identity".

Appeasing unionists would mean removing any other culture bar unionism from northern Ireland, limiting immigration and blocking same sex marriage.

You'll understand we won't be able to meet all of the unionist demands?

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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