Private members' bill to legalise taprooms

#1 · 23-11-2016 6:14pm #1

The microbrewery representatives' organisation have organised a bill to go before the Oireachtas permitting breweries, distilleries and cidermakers to sell their own products on-site without needing a separate pub or off licence. Labour TD Alan Kelly is sponsoring it. The text is here.

It's a great step in moving the issue forward and hopefully will force the government to look at it properly. Worst-case scenario would be striking it out on a technicality -- it's only a page or so long and Ireland's licensing law is big and complicated: deliberately so, I think. The government has a big licensing reform bill in the works so if this gets a bit of momentum there's an outside chance of taprooms being included in that, if the Department of Justice ever gets around to finishing and introducing it.

Either way, well done to all involved.

Lovely Bloke · 23-11-2016 7:43pm

A private members bill being brought to the Dail by a member of such a small Party, who are in opposition, and especially by that lunatic, has little to no chance of being anything but laughed out of the place, unfortunately.

Zaph · 23-11-2016 7:46pm

You're probably right, but at least it now puts the issue up for discussion in the Dáil. I think as BeerNut says, the longer term ambition would be to have it included in a total overhaul of the licensing laws. The big problem there is how long it takes our politicians to get around to deciding anything.

Avada · 23-11-2016 8:37pm

The main issue with the bill that could have it fall down is the silly notion that Breweries could serve beer at 10am on a Sunday (as per the draft bill) when pubs and offos cant.

the beer revolu · 23-11-2016 8:56pm

Great that it's at least being discussed.
Now, if we could get them to consider extending the duty relief to distilleries and cider makers.

BeerNut · 24-11-2016 9:07am

Avada wrote: »

The main issue with the bill that could have it fall down is the silly notion that Breweries could serve beer at 10am on a Sunday (as per the draft bill) when pubs and offos cant.

It's a PMB. It'll fall down regardless. The point isn't to get it passed.

the beer revolu wrote: »

Now, if we could get them to consider extending the duty relief to distilleries and cider makers.

It can't be extended to cider makers, and funnily enough I think you're the first person to suggest that distilleries should pay less duty.

Avada · 24-11-2016 9:10am

BeerNut wrote: »

It's a PMB. It'll fall down regardless. The point isn't to get it passed.

True, its good to get the conversation started.

BeerNut · 24-11-2016 9:19am

Besides, why is serving beer at 10am on a Sunday "silly"? You can get Mass on a Saturday night now, can't you?

Lovely Bloke · 24-11-2016 9:48am

Who says it's silly?

What's silly is these johnny-come-lately Craft Breweries looking to be allowed to sell alcohol at 10am Sunday, while traditional publicans can not.

It's just another feature of this PMB that makes it destined for the scrap-heap.

Peregrinus · 24-11-2016 9:56am

Private members' bills do occasionally get taken up by the government and end up being enacted into law. That's how we got humanist marriage celebrants. But it is a fairly rare occurrence.

The fundamental idea here isn't at all outlandish; it's common enough in other countries, and the wider licensed trade seems to survive. I'm living in Australia where "cellar door" licences allow wineries and breweries to serve their own product for consumption at the premises where it is produced, as an adjunct to off-sales. The hours they can serve line up with the hours they can sell, since there's not much point in offering a specialty product for sale if the customer isn't allowed to taste it.

the beer revolu · 24-11-2016 8:32pm

BeerNut wrote: »

It can't be extended to cider makers, and funnily enough I think you're the first person to suggest that distilleries should pay less duty.

Why not cider makers?
I meant micro distilleries (which would need to be defined).

Avada · 24-11-2016 8:43pm

BeerNut wrote: »

Besides, why is serving beer at 10am on a Sunday "silly"? You can get Mass on a Saturday night now, can't you?

I dont think the idea is silly, I think introducing something that contradicts existing legislation in a PMB is silly

BeerNut · 25-11-2016 2:18am

the beer revolu wrote: »

Why not cider makers?

The Irish tax break for breweries exists within a European law allowing tax breaks for breweries. There's no equivalent EU provision for cider makers and little chance of getting one since, while beer is an industrial product, cider is an agricultural one: different Commission directorate, different agenda, different lobbyists.

Basically, the French wine lobby is incredibly powerful and doesn't like change, so no tax break for Irish cider makers. It sucks, but there it is.

Avada wrote: »

I think introducing something that contradicts existing legislation in a PMB is silly

Literally the only thing any piece of legislation does is contradict the existing law.

Avada · 25-11-2016 8:30am

BeerNut wrote: »

Literally the only thing any piece of legislation does is contradict the existing law.

No, it amends or repeals existing legislation.

Peregrinus · 25-11-2016 8:38am

And presumably this one would amend provisions preventing the sale of alcohol at 10 am on Sundays by permitting it in licensed taprooms.

Avada · 25-11-2016 9:01am

Peregrinus wrote: »

And presumably this one would amend provisions preventing the sale of alcohol at 10 am on Sundays by permitting it in licensed taprooms.

It makes no reference in the drafting to amending the Intoxicating Liquor Act. Anyway, I'm dragging this off topic.

BeerNut · 01-12-2016 11:46am

First stage was in the Dáil yesterday. Alan Kelly gave a very good five minute introductory speech on how crazy the current situation is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls6H_ceFAn8

BeerNut · 22-03-2017 4:25pm

A heads-up that second stage is in the Dáil tomorrow, currently scheduled for 5.48pm to 7.48pm but these things have a habit of running late. You'll be able to watch live here.

BeerNut · 23-03-2017 1:04pm

Now rescheduled for 3.05pm - 5.05pm today.

BeerNut · 23-03-2017 4:50pm

The Government has agreed to support the legislation, which is fantastic. There'll be some spadework at Committee stage however as they want District Court approval for taprooms, as well as making the tour facilities subject to planning permission and fire safety law.

Liamo08 · 23-03-2017 5:10pm

BeerNut wrote: »

The Government has agreed to support the legislation, which is fantastic. There'll be some spadework at Committee stage however as they want District Court approval for taprooms, as well as making the tour facilities subject to planning permission and fire safety law.

Sounds promising. Only thing is it does sound like the committee stage will look to have beer only sold to people who are taking a tour at the brewery- though I might have misheard. Would hope that people would be able to go to a taproom for a few beers or to buy beer to takeaway outside of just taking a tour.

BeerNut · 23-03-2017 6:10pm

Liamo08 wrote: »

Sounds promising. Only thing is it does sound like the committee stage will look to have beer only sold to people who are taking a tour at the brewery- though I might have misheard. Would hope that people would be able to go to a taproom for a few beers or to buy beer to takeaway outside of just taking a tour.

Yes, that does look to be a sticking point all right. Here is the Government wording on it:

Seems a bit silly. Will you have to sit an exam before you get your pint to show you were actually educated on the way round?

henryporter · 23-03-2017 6:15pm

BeerNut wrote: »

Yes, that does look to be a sticking point all right. Here is the Government wording on it:

Seems a bit silly. Will you have to sit an exam before you get your pint to show you were actually educated on the way round?

Also makes you wonder if Guinness are operating as a licensed premises or an illegal taproom :-)

BeerNut · 23-03-2017 6:30pm

henryporter wrote: »

Also makes you wonder if Guinness are operating as a licensed premises or an illegal taproom :-)

They have a full pub licence.

L1011 · 23-03-2017 9:18pm

BeerNut wrote: »

They have a full pub licence.

Two at that - one for the Storehouse, one for the Open Gate. Jameson Experience has one too.

Not a cost concern for a company of that scale but unfeasable for most small brewers.

Lovely Bloke · 24-03-2017 9:40am

A "tour" could be "there's the taps, the fermenters are over there, here's your pint".

Peregrinus · 24-03-2017 9:43am

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

A "tour" could be "there's the taps, the fermenters are over there, here's your pint".

Well, good luck with the effort. The Revenue have a fairly good track record of successfully pursuing people who try to get away with nominal or token compliance with the licensing legislation. I wouldn't bank on this strategy succeeding.

Liamo08 · 24-03-2017 10:03am

There was a huge focus from all the speakers yesterday about how this would be great for rural Ireland with the promotion of these small businesses in the local areas and to tourists. If you want to follow through on the spirit of that surely if you live in the area you should be able to go to the premises and have a pint or buy some bottles/cans to take away? The idea of having to do a tour to buy beer seems crazy.

BeerNut · 24-03-2017 10:16am

Popping over to the local brewery to get a growler filled is, IMO, one of the normal things that this legislation is supposed to be introducing. I wonder has there been too much emphasis on the tourist side in how this bill has been sold. Sure'n only tourists would be drinking that local stuff... :rolleyes:

Liamo08 · 24-03-2017 11:02am

BeerNut wrote: »

Popping over to the local brewery to get a growler filled is, IMO, one of the normal things that this legislation is supposed to be introducing. I wonder has there been too much emphasis on the tourist side in how this bill has been sold. Sure'n only tourists would be drinking that local stuff... :rolleyes:

You'd hope that they'd see how this operates in other countries and implement similar in Ireland, there was a sniff of pressure from vested interests about the whole only during tours aspect. Still a huge step in the right direction at least.

BeerNut · 24-03-2017 11:45am

I bopped the debate video up on YouTube, if anyone's interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noBkBeIJntU

The full text of the Government's response can be seen here.

Private members' bill to legalise taprooms

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