Private members' bill to legalise taprooms

BeerNut

The microbrewery representatives' organisation have organised a bill to go before the Oireachtas permitting breweries, distilleries and cidermakers to sell their own products on-site without needing a separate pub or off licence. Labour TD Alan Kelly is sponsoring it. The text is here.

It's a great step in moving the issue forward and hopefully will force the government to look at it properly. Worst-case scenario would be striking it out on a technicality -- it's only a page or so long and Ireland's licensing law is big and complicated: deliberately so, I think. The government has a big licensing reform bill in the works so if this gets a bit of momentum there's an outside chance of taprooms being included in that, if the Department of Justice ever gets around to finishing and introducing it.

Either way, well done to all involved.

Lovely Bloke

A private members bill being brought to the Dail by a member of such a small Party, who are in opposition, and especially by that lunatic, has little to no chance of being anything but laughed out of the place, unfortunately.

Zaph

You're probably right, but at least it now puts the issue up for discussion in the Dáil. I think as BeerNut says, the longer term ambition would be to have it included in a total overhaul of the licensing laws. The big problem there is how long it takes our politicians to get around to deciding anything.

Avada

The main issue with the bill that could have it fall down is the silly notion that Breweries could serve beer at 10am on a Sunday (as per the draft bill) when pubs and offos cant.

the beer revolu

Great that it's at least being discussed.
Now, if we could get them to consider extending the duty relief to distilleries and cider makers.

BeerNut

Avada wrote: »

The main issue with the bill that could have it fall down is the silly notion that Breweries could serve beer at 10am on a Sunday (as per the draft bill) when pubs and offos cant.

It's a PMB. It'll fall down regardless. The point isn't to get it passed.

the beer revolu wrote: »

Now, if we could get them to consider extending the duty relief to distilleries and cider makers.

It can't be extended to cider makers, and funnily enough I think you're the first person to suggest that distilleries should pay less duty.

Avada

BeerNut wrote: »

It's a PMB. It'll fall down regardless. The point isn't to get it passed.

True, its good to get the conversation started.

BeerNut

Besides, why is serving beer at 10am on a Sunday "silly"? You can get Mass on a Saturday night now, can't you?

Lovely Bloke

Who says it's silly?

What's silly is these johnny-come-lately Craft Breweries looking to be allowed to sell alcohol at 10am Sunday, while traditional publicans can not.

It's just another feature of this PMB that makes it destined for the scrap-heap.

Peregrinus

Private members' bills do occasionally get taken up by the government and end up being enacted into law. That's how we got humanist marriage celebrants. But it is a fairly rare occurrence.

The fundamental idea here isn't at all outlandish; it's common enough in other countries, and the wider licensed trade seems to survive. I'm living in Australia where "cellar door" licences allow wineries and breweries to serve their own product for consumption at the premises where it is produced, as an adjunct to off-sales. The hours they can serve line up with the hours they can sell, since there's not much point in offering a specialty product for sale if the customer isn't allowed to taste it.

the beer revolu

BeerNut wrote: »

It can't be extended to cider makers, and funnily enough I think you're the first person to suggest that distilleries should pay less duty.

Why not cider makers?
I meant micro distilleries (which would need to be defined).

Avada

BeerNut wrote: »

Besides, why is serving beer at 10am on a Sunday "silly"? You can get Mass on a Saturday night now, can't you?

I dont think the idea is silly, I think introducing something that contradicts existing legislation in a PMB is silly

BeerNut

the beer revolu wrote: »

Why not cider makers?

The Irish tax break for breweries exists within a European law allowing tax breaks for breweries. There's no equivalent EU provision for cider makers and little chance of getting one since, while beer is an industrial product, cider is an agricultural one: different Commission directorate, different agenda, different lobbyists.

Basically, the French wine lobby is incredibly powerful and doesn't like change, so no tax break for Irish cider makers. It sucks, but there it is.

Avada wrote: »

I think introducing something that contradicts existing legislation in a PMB is silly

Literally the only thing any piece of legislation does is contradict the existing law.

Avada

BeerNut wrote: »

Literally the only thing any piece of legislation does is contradict the existing law.

No, it amends or repeals existing legislation.

Peregrinus

And presumably this one would amend provisions preventing the sale of alcohol at 10 am on Sundays by permitting it in licensed taprooms.

Avada

Peregrinus wrote: »

And presumably this one would amend provisions preventing the sale of alcohol at 10 am on Sundays by permitting it in licensed taprooms.

It makes no reference in the drafting to amending the Intoxicating Liquor Act. Anyway, I'm dragging this off topic.

BeerNut

First stage was in the Dáil yesterday. Alan Kelly gave a very good five minute introductory speech on how crazy the current situation is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls6H_ceFAn8

BeerNut

A heads-up that second stage is in the Dáil tomorrow, currently scheduled for 5.48pm to 7.48pm but these things have a habit of running late. You'll be able to watch live here.

BeerNut

Now rescheduled for 3.05pm - 5.05pm today.

BeerNut

The Government has agreed to support the legislation, which is fantastic. There'll be some spadework at Committee stage however as they want District Court approval for taprooms, as well as making the tour facilities subject to planning permission and fire safety law.

Liamo08

BeerNut wrote: »

The Government has agreed to support the legislation, which is fantastic. There'll be some spadework at Committee stage however as they want District Court approval for taprooms, as well as making the tour facilities subject to planning permission and fire safety law.

Sounds promising. Only thing is it does sound like the committee stage will look to have beer only sold to people who are taking a tour at the brewery- though I might have misheard. Would hope that people would be able to go to a taproom for a few beers or to buy beer to takeaway outside of just taking a tour.

BeerNut

Liamo08 wrote: »

Sounds promising. Only thing is it does sound like the committee stage will look to have beer only sold to people who are taking a tour at the brewery- though I might have misheard. Would hope that people would be able to go to a taproom for a few beers or to buy beer to takeaway outside of just taking a tour.

Yes, that does look to be a sticking point all right. Here is the Government wording on it:

Seems a bit silly. Will you have to sit an exam before you get your pint to show you were actually educated on the way round?

henryporter

BeerNut wrote: »

Yes, that does look to be a sticking point all right. Here is the Government wording on it:

Seems a bit silly. Will you have to sit an exam before you get your pint to show you were actually educated on the way round?

Also makes you wonder if Guinness are operating as a licensed premises or an illegal taproom :-)

BeerNut

henryporter wrote: »

Also makes you wonder if Guinness are operating as a licensed premises or an illegal taproom :-)

They have a full pub licence.

L1011

BeerNut wrote: »

They have a full pub licence.

Two at that - one for the Storehouse, one for the Open Gate. Jameson Experience has one too.

Not a cost concern for a company of that scale but unfeasable for most small brewers.

Lovely Bloke

A "tour" could be "there's the taps, the fermenters are over there, here's your pint".

Peregrinus

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

A "tour" could be "there's the taps, the fermenters are over there, here's your pint".

Well, good luck with the effort. The Revenue have a fairly good track record of successfully pursuing people who try to get away with nominal or token compliance with the licensing legislation. I wouldn't bank on this strategy succeeding.

Liamo08

There was a huge focus from all the speakers yesterday about how this would be great for rural Ireland with the promotion of these small businesses in the local areas and to tourists. If you want to follow through on the spirit of that surely if you live in the area you should be able to go to the premises and have a pint or buy some bottles/cans to take away? The idea of having to do a tour to buy beer seems crazy.

BeerNut

Popping over to the local brewery to get a growler filled is, IMO, one of the normal things that this legislation is supposed to be introducing. I wonder has there been too much emphasis on the tourist side in how this bill has been sold. Sure'n only tourists would be drinking that local stuff... :rolleyes:

Liamo08

BeerNut wrote: »

Popping over to the local brewery to get a growler filled is, IMO, one of the normal things that this legislation is supposed to be introducing. I wonder has there been too much emphasis on the tourist side in how this bill has been sold. Sure'n only tourists would be drinking that local stuff... :rolleyes:

You'd hope that they'd see how this operates in other countries and implement similar in Ireland, there was a sniff of pressure from vested interests about the whole only during tours aspect. Still a huge step in the right direction at least.

BeerNut

I bopped the debate video up on YouTube, if anyone's interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noBkBeIJntU

The full text of the Government's response can be seen here.

BeerNut

Liamo08 wrote: »

there was a sniff of pressure from vested interests about the whole only during tours aspect.

It just occurred to me that the planning side of things will make it harder for new breweries to open. Local publicans could very easily see them as rivals and object to planning applications, which they wouldn't do under the current system which sees breweries solely as factories.

Zaph

Would the planning part of it not just apply to the taproom? Then a brewery could open without one and there wouldn't be a reason for an objection from a publican. Obviously there could still be an objection later on if planning permission was sought for a taproom. I would have thought that any new brewery opening up wouldn't bother with one as they'd be more focused on building up the brand, and that it would be something that only the more established breweries would think of adding. A lot would also depend on where the brewery is. I can't imagine that a trip to Ballycoolin industrial estate to see the Porterhouse brewery and taproom would be as appealing to casual visitors as somewhere like the Wicklow Brewery.

BeerNut

Zaph wrote: »

Would the planning part of it not just apply to the taproom?

Yeah, I think you're right. I had it in my head that this was to amend the existing manufacturer's licence to allow retail sales, but looking at the text of the bill it seems to be about the creation of a brand new type of licence, so breweries could still run as factories without applying to be a taproom.

AlanG

Liamo08 wrote: »

There was a huge focus from all the speakers yesterday about how this would be great for rural Ireland with the promotion of these small businesses in the local areas and to tourists. If you want to follow through on the spirit of that surely if you live in the area you should be able to go to the premises and have a pint or buy some bottles/cans to take away? The idea of having to do a tour to buy beer seems crazy.

In fairness without the tour this is just a way to get a cheap license, generally in areas that have no shortage of pubs. Breweries that want to sell to locals can already buy one of the many licenses available in rural Ireland. it is only in the cities that a license is worth anything significant.
There is really little difference between a brewery that sells openly to locals without a tour and a pub so both should require the same license.

BeerNut

AlanG wrote: »

In fairness without the tour this is just a way to get a cheap license

In fairness, it's not much of a pub that closes at 6pm.

Avada

AlanG wrote: »

In fairness without the tour this is just a way to get a cheap license, generally in areas that have no shortage of pubs. Breweries that want to sell to locals can already buy one of the many licenses available in rural Ireland. it is only in the cities that a license is worth anything significant.
There is really little difference between a brewery that sells openly to locals without a tour and a pub so both should require the same license.

The licence aren't country and city specific, they can be transferred anywhere. (Well traded). I'm not sure if the rule that you have to swap 2 licences for 1 Dublin licence exists.

noby

BeerNut wrote: »

It just occurred to me that the planning side of things will make it harder for new breweries to open. Local publicans could very easily see them as rivals and object to planning applications, which they wouldn't do under the current system which sees breweries solely as factories.

It obviously still needs to be fleshed out, but it was mentioned that you couldn't object to the licence application under the same circumstances that you can for a pub licence (proximity etc.).

Liamo08

AlanG wrote: »

In fairness without the tour this is just a way to get a cheap license, generally in areas that have no shortage of pubs. Breweries that want to sell to locals can already buy one of the many licenses available in rural Ireland. it is only in the cities that a license is worth anything significant.
There is really little difference between a brewery that sells openly to locals without a tour and a pub so both should require the same license.

The fact that this works so well in other countries without having to do a tour should be what we're aiming for here. In those countries the local pubs aren't struggling in fact if the local brewery is very good people will go to the pub to drink the beer after 6pm. This is just going to cause breweries to have free 'tours' or some other nonsense to get around it. What's to stop someone doing 5 minutes of the tour then going to the taproom? The idea doesn't make a lot of sense in practical terms and you'd hope that a sensible compromise can be reached.

Avada

I was in the Brooklyn Brewery not so long ago. On Fridays and Saturdays they open their tap room up, stay open until about 11 and serve good beers. They have a pizza van outside too.

Lovely Bloke

Zaph wrote: »

the Wicklow Brewery.

Not sure if you know this, but The Wicklow Brewery is already attached to a pub, Mickey Finn's in Redcross.

We went to a wedding there last Autumn, lovely setting, and getting to drink the beer right beside the tanks it was brewed in was something else, lovely, lovely beer too.

Plenty of accommodation too, and really worth an overnight in the town.

On the other hand, O Brother, for example, are in an industrial estate in Rathcoole.

L1011

AlanG wrote: »

In fairness without the tour this is just a way to get a cheap license, generally in areas that have no shortage of pubs. Breweries that want to sell to locals can already buy one of the many licenses available in rural Ireland. it is only in the cities that a license is worth anything significant.
There is really little difference between a brewery that sells openly to locals without a tour and a pub so both should require the same license.

For 70k+ and hefty costs. Sometimes requiring repair work to the dead pub you're delicencing so it can get a fire cert to be reactivated to transfer.

Not practical for most.

L1011

Avada wrote: »

The licence aren't country and city specific, they can be transferred anywhere. (Well traded). I'm not sure if the rule that you have to swap 2 licences for 1 Dublin licence exists.

Pretty sure that multiple surrender rules were all removed in the early 2000s along with a general reform of various obscure concepts - there was a period allowing short week and early closing licences to be swapped for full and for obsolete hotel licenses to be changed also.

If Dublin licences were still ridiculously valuable I doubt we'd have seen the petrol station at the end of my road (in Kildare) extinguish a dublin full pub licence for its off licence.

andekwarhola

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

On the other hand, O Brother, for example, are in an industrial estate in Rathcoole.

Do you mean Rascals?

+1 for the Wicklow Brewery. Did the tour a while back - unfortunately didn't stay overnight - and it's a great space but relatively remote. Would love to see more of these around the country.

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

For 70k+ and hefty costs. Sometimes requiring repair work to the dead pub you're delicencing so it can get a fire cert to be reactivated to transfer.

Not practical for most.

Closer to 45k. Things have picked up generally but loads of rural pubs still in a heap, despite the best efforts of the Healy Raes.

Peregrinus

Liamo08 wrote: »

The fact that this works so well in other countries without having to do a tour should be what we're aiming for here. In those countries the local pubs aren't struggling in fact if the local brewery is very good people will go to the pub to drink the beer after 6pm. This is just going to cause breweries to have free 'tours' or some other nonsense to get around it. What's to stop someone doing 5 minutes of the tour then going to the taproom? The idea doesn't make a lot of sense in practical terms and you'd hope that a sensible compromise can be reached.

I haven't seen the draft legislation, but presumably the deal is that the licence will only allow you to serve the product that's brewed on the premises.

So I don't see this as being a serious rival to a pub. You won't be able to get wine or spirits in a taproom, or indeed any beer offered by any other brewer. (Or you can get spirits, but not wine or beer.) So it's already not looking a lot like a pub.

I get that you don't want the taproom to turn into a beer hall; the sale of the stuff really should be ancillary to the brewing of it. But it seems to me that there might be better ways to achieve this than by imposing a tour requirement. One idea might be to limit the size of the taproom. You sample the stuff and you either buy a case or two, or you don't, but either way the licensee would now like you to move on so that there's room for more people (who might buy a case or two) to sample the stuff. Another would be to forbid the sale of soft drinks (though you could allow the supply water for free). That way, unless everyone in the party is happy to drink the same beer, it's not an attractive place for people to settle in for the evening.

irish_goat

Peregrinus wrote: »

Another would be to forbid the sale of soft drinks (though you could allow the supply water for free). That way, unless everyone in the party is happy to drink the same beer, it's not an attractive place for people to settle in for the evening.

Can't see them doing that as it would look like they're discouraging designated drivers.

BeerNut

Peregrinus wrote: »

That way, unless everyone in the party is happy to drink the same beer, it's not an attractive place for people to settle in for the evening.

Can't imagine anyone settling in for the evening at a venue which closes at 6pm.

loyatemu

if they can only sell their own booze (no wine, no spirits, no Guinness, no Heino), they're going to be a fairly niche bar anyway, all this dancing around to placate publicans is ridiculous.

L1011

Lovely Bloke wrote: »

A private members bill being brought to the Dail by a member of such a small Party, who are in opposition, and especially by that lunatic, has little to no chance of being anything but laughed out of the place, unfortunately.

Oh, that turned out to be rather wrong.

Approved by cabinet with the addendum of requiring a guided tour. Not onerous in small facilities.

RasTa

*points and walks around mash tun. Guided tour complete. Beer me.