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Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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Comments

  • #2402
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If course it can, but as you pointed out, that is a nationalist opinion, not gospel.

    It is the truth though

    The British couldve stopped the famine- choose not too?


  • #2403
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    I suppose if the French leave you'll be here telling us all how that'll be a latent imperialistic attitude from when France got its own way globally. :D

    Yes, the French are former colonists too and would have an arrogance that stems from that colonial past.

    Have they taken as much of an ala carte approach to Europe as the UK, no they havent.
    It is notable though that the EU can survive if the Uk leaves, but if the French do it is finished. How could it survive.


  • #2404
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    It is the truth though

    The British couldve stopped the famine- choose not too?

    Fred's version has the hero's as benign, educating and civilising. Same as they were in India. 'If we happened to kill millions butchering and bombing them into the acceptance of our gifts' that was unfortunate, BUT look over there at the greater good!'


  • #2405
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    It is the truth though

    The British couldve stopped the famine- choose not too?

    Blaming Johnny Foreigner?

    Nigel Farage would be proud of you.


  • #2406
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Blaming Johnny Foreigner?

    Nigel Farage would be proud of you.

    The suffering and deaths of the indigenous people was just a coincidence your honour. :rolleyes:


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  • #2407
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Blaming Johnny Foreigner?

    Nigel Farage would be proud of you.

    It's the truth??

    Britain couldve stopped it....by your own admission choose not too?


    Always makes me smirk....bigots like farage coming here while demonishing forgieners at home..while being forgieners here....

    It'll take a lot of effort by forgieners of Asian/eastern European elections extraction before they come close to causing holocaust by hunger here


    But sure yanno.....if it helps you avoid facing up these facts to compare those whose views you can't face up with farage.....so be it :)


  • #2408
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Fred's version has the hero's as benign, educating and civilising. Same as they were in India. 'If we happened to kill millions butchering and bombing them into the acceptance of our gifts' that was unfortunate, BUT look over there at the greater good!'

    Yep, that's right. Shut down the conversation with a bit of baseless, unsubstantiated rubbish.

    Good man Fran, good man.


  • #2409
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Yep, that's right. Shut down the conversation with a bit of baseless, unsubstantiated rubbish.

    Good man Fran, good man.

    I'm sure you will carry on regardless of anything I have to say Freddie. You have been spinning the same story across multiple threads concerning your heros for a few years now.


  • #2410
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    It's the truth??

    Britain couldve stopped it....by your own admission choose not too?


    Always makes me smirk....bigots like farage coming here while demonishing forgieners at home..while being forgieners here....

    It'll take a lot of effort by forgieners of Asian/eastern European elections extraction before they come close to causing holocaust by hunger here


    But sure yanno.....if it helps you avoid facing up these facts to compare those whose views you can't face up with farage.....so be it :)

    You mean the government of the United Kingdom could have stopped it. I don't think they could have stopped it, but they could have greatly reduced it's effects.

    There were far more guilty parties in Ireland than in Britain. It was Irish merchants, farmers and landlords who were profiteering. But their descendants are still here (probably sat in the dail as we speak) so far easier to put all the blame on themums over there.


  • #2411
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I'm sure you will carry on regardless of anything I have to say Freddie. You have been spinning the same story across multiple threads concerning your heros for a few years now.

    Heroes? What are you on about now?


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  • #2412
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You mean the government of the United Kingdom could have stopped it. I don't think they could have stopped it, but they could have greatly reduced it's effects.

    There were far more guilty parties in Ireland than in Britain. It was Irish merchants, farmers and landlords who were profiteering. But their descendants are still here (probably sat in the dail as we speak) so far easier to put all the blame on themums over there.


    They could easily have stopped it....an industrial revelution going on in Britain....raise taxes

    Stop food exports from Ireland....not send an army into ireland to defend it


    The descendants of profiteers could not build a sustainable future in ireland....and so many of the so called sectarian attacks burning houses etc of the civil war.....were in most cases from what is known about where I'm from was settling up old scores



    But sure yanno.....I'm sure youll be able to back up that particular bit of muddling the waters......or is it just abit of whataboutry



    .it's not like in the UK where people who've families gotten rich by slave ownership....generations later still get elected???


  • #2413
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Heroes? What are you on about now?

    Managing to absolve British imperialism of the major responsibility for what happened in multiple colonies makes me suspect that you have a 'hero worship' complex.

    Laying the major part of the blame on Irish merchants(who had no overview of what was happening and had no responsibility to have an 'overview')for the famine is a bit like a battered wife blaming Guinness for her husband's drunken rages.


  • #2414
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,037 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Only in AH could a thread about brexit turn into a thread about who is responsible for the famine


  • #2415
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Only in AH could a thread about brexit turn into a thread about who is responsible for the famine

    :D well it has resonances if you watch who British people and their cheerleaders hurl the blame at for their current predicament.


  • #2416
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Only in AH could a thread about brexit turn into a thread about who is responsible for the famine

    I just merely leveled the accusations of skewed history at Ireland as was being leveled at the UK.

    The famine is one such example. In the Irish narrative, no one from Ireland can be held remotely responsible, it was all "Da Brits". As you can see, any discussion about this is just met with nationalist rhetoric.


  • #2417
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    They could easily have stopped it....an industrial revelution going on in Britain....raise taxes

    Stop food exports from Ireland....not send an army into ireland to defend it
    it wouldn't have prevented it, but it would have greatly reduced the effects.
    tomwaterford wrote: »
    The descendants of profiteers could not build a sustainable future in ireland....and so many of the so called sectarian attacks burning houses etc of the civil war.....were in most cases from what is known about where I'm from was settling up old scores

    But sure yanno.....I'm sure youll be able to back up that particular bit of muddling the waters......or is it just abit of whataboutry

    some, but by no means all.
    tomwaterford wrote: »
    it's not like in the UK where people who've families gotten rich by slave ownership....generations later still get elected???

    and you accuse me of whataboutery?

    it is very similar actually


  • #2418
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I just merely leveled the accusations of skewed history at Ireland as was being leveled at the UK.

    The famine is one such example. In the Irish narrative, no one from Ireland can be held remotely responsible, it was all "Da Brits". As you can see, any discussion about this is just met with nationalist rhetoric.

    Are you saying the rhetoric is false??

    Is history in irish schools a lie??
    Pretty big revelations here :D


  • #2419
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fratton Fred wrote: »

    The famine is one such example. In the Irish narrative, no one from Ireland can be held remotely responsible,

    This is pure nonsense. Of course there were Irish people who had a responsibility. But the major responsibility for famines (when there is food available) falls quite rightly on the government who are the only ones who have an overview of what is happening and the British were told what was happening.

    But you deflect away Fred by getting in a strop about something what nobody has claimed. 'That non-one from ireland can be held remotely responsible.'.

    It is like blaming migrants for deeper ills in a society, remind you of anyone?


  • #2420
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Are you saying the rhetoric is false??

    Is history in irish schools a lie??
    Pretty big revelations here :D

    not a lie, no. It is skewed though and has a heavy bias towards the nationalist narrative.

    That isn't to say that there isn't another narrative that is skewed the other way, but one of the problems I have found is finding the middle ground, as irish history is full of political intervention.


  • #2421
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You mean the government of the United Kingdom could have stopped it. I don't think they could have stopped it, but they could have greatly reduced it's effects.

    There were far more guilty parties in Ireland than in Britain. It was Irish merchants, farmers and landlords who were profiteering. But their descendants are still here (probably sat in the dail as we speak) so far easier to put all the blame on themums over there.

    Trying to perpetuate this old lie all the time. No mention of the system of governance imposed upon Ireland, no mention of the the means of production and distribution again imposed upon the country, no mention of the multitude of sources in media and government in London at the time that seemed to embrace the consequences of the great Hunger and certainly no mention of the role of the British army in Ireland during this period? Why is that ?


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  • #2422
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    This is pure nonsense. Of course there were Irish people who had a responsibility. But the major responsibility for famines (when there is food available) falls quite rightly on the government who are the only ones who have an overview of what is happening and the British were told what was happening.

    the major responsibility falls with the government, not the British. The vast majority of the British had little or no idea what was happening in Ireland.
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    But you deflect away Fred by getting in a strop about something what nobody has claimed. 'That non-one from ireland can be held remotely responsible.'.

    It is like blaming migrants for deeper ills in a society, remind you of anyone?

    err. no it isn't :confused:


  • #2423
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    R P McMurphy wrote: »
    Trying to perpetuate this old lie all the time. No mention of the system of governance imposed upon Ireland, no mention of the the means of production and distribution again imposed upon the country, no mention of the multitude of sources in media and government in London at the time that seemed to embrace the consequences of the great Hunger and certainly no mention of the role of the British army in Ireland during this period? Why is that ?

    perpetuate what old lie?

    there were a multitude of factors, including those you mention, plus the end of the Napoleonic wars, population explosion, industrial revolution...


  • #2424
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    the major responsibility falls with the government, not the British. The vast majority of the British had little or no idea what was happening in Ireland.


    :D:D:D


  • #2425
    2ygb4cmqetsjhx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 564 ✭✭✭2ygb4cmqetsjhx


    This thread is about Brexit. Why are you talking about the famine?


  • #2426
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Post Brexit strategy to be announced by Hammond today.


  • #2427
    VinLieger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Post Brexit strategy to be announced by Hammond today.

    Thats a bit of the cart before the horse surely?


  • #2428
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    his draught was a page with "FFFFF*******KKKK" written across it in red marker


  • #2429
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,745 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Thats a bit of the cart before the horse surely?

    Do they even have a horse? Think it bolted long ago. :D


  • #2430
    demfad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I just merely leveled the accusations of skewed history at Ireland as was being leveled at the UK.

    The famine is one such example. In the Irish narrative, no one from Ireland can be held remotely responsible, it was all "Da Brits". As you can see, any discussion about this is just met with nationalist rhetoric.

    Famines are not uncommon in colonies. Usually the external interference either creates the conditions necessary for famine and/or exacerbates the famine itself. Before British rule in India food shortages were managed by reducing tax payable to the local ruler until the crises was averted. After British rule, the imperialists demanded a constant tax return, so any shortage in total tax return resulted in an increase in taxation with ensuing famine. British policy was to blame the locals and nationalistic imperialist apologists clearly still do.


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  • #2431
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    demfad wrote: »
    Famines are not uncommon in colonies. Usually the external interference either creates the conditions necessary for famine and/or exacerbates the famine itself. Before British rule in India food shortages were managed by reducing tax payable to the local ruler until the crises was averted. After British rule, the imperialists demanded a constant tax return, so any shortage in total tax return resulted in an increase in taxation with ensuing famine. British policy was to blame the locals and nationalistic imperialist apologists clearly still do.

    India became poorer under British rule.


This discussion has been closed.
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