Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 06:37PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ah sure, it's just a bit of xenophobia, that's harmless enough.

Sporting rivalry Fred. Ever hear of it? Kinda keeps sport going and the point of a lot of it from a fan perspective.

Xenophobia is the irrational hate of foreigners. Quite a different thing.

With the greatest of respect, you're talking about football banter there. It's very different from a school history class. You can't compare apples and oranges.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 06:40PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

What are you on about?

There isn't a hope in hell of Unionism staging a civil war if a UI comes around.
The British will be Unionism's greatest threat and will suffocate any supply. Unless you can fashion weapons from sticks it would be completely unsustainable. We are not in the 70's or eighties now.
A bit of Fleg - Drumcree like shenanigans/wrecking your own areas and that would be it.

The British have already dis-engaged, they have tacitly cut Unionists adrift to the mercy of the polls. (even though you don't want to admit it)

That is just an extension of how Maggie felt - until, like Arlene, she had to play to the rabble and act out the imperialist elsewhere in the Southern ocean.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/margaret-thatcher-was-not-against-united-ireland-28578929.html

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 06:42PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, you're talking about football banter there. It's very different from a school history class. You can't compare apples and oranges.

I was just suggesting that a sporting reference may have been made...in a history class.

I know that a teacher would be heavily sanctioned for doing it if there was a political motive.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 06:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was, but you will rarely hear anyone admit to it being anything other than the fault of the British. Collins knew the North wasn't achievable at the time and De Velera didn't want it.

Trevelyan's infamous quote is an interesting one. When he refers to the attitude of the people, who was he referring to, the absent landlord, the starving peasant farmer, or the wealthy farmers and merchants profiteering?

In Ireland, it is only ever considered that he is blaming the starving, but he could have just have conceivably be blaming the farmers who were recruituing their own militia to guard their stocks and selling them to the poor houses for at greatly increased prices.

Yes, the government should have stopped it and their response was attrocious, but no blame at all is apportioned to a lot of guilty people (mainly because their descendants are still living here). Then, of course, you have the myths about the Ottoman emperor's ships getting turned away from various ports by the royal navu and having to dock in Drogheda.....

I'll reply in full when I'm home but Trevelyan also said this of the Irish famine:

"effective mechanism for reducing surplus population"

Is there any part of you that finds that just an tiny bit anti-Irish?

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 07:09PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll reply in full when I'm home but Trevelyan also said this of the Irish famine:

"effective mechanism for reducing surplus population"

Is there any part of you that finds that just an tiny bit anti-Irish?

Anti Irish, or anti poor people in general?

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 07:24PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Anti Irish, or anti poor people in general?

Probrably both. No respect for poor but seen the famine as a "flaw in the Irish character".

"The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 07:40PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Probrably both. No respect for poor but seen the famine as a "flaw in the Irish character".

"The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

Why are there several dots in the middle of your quote?

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 07:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why are there several dots in the middle of your quote?

That's the way the quote was copied.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2016 08:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll reply in full when I'm home but Trevelyan also said this of the Irish famine:

"effective mechanism for reducing surplus population"

Is there any part of you that finds that just an tiny bit anti-Irish?

Anti Irish, or anti poor people in general?

Anti-Irish.

Without a shadow of a doubt and it's best not to revise history & rationalise what happened.

"The greatest evil we have to face is not the physical evil of the famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the Irish people"- Trevelyan.

130Kph · 22-11-2016 08:44PM

"effective mechanism for reducing surplus population"
Is there any part of you that finds that just an tiny bit anti-Irish?

I’d no more use Trevelyans comments -in an off topic tangent- than I would moan about Punch magazine in the 1880’s drawing cartoons of ‘the oirish’ as half-human half-ape simpletons.

Trevelyan’s mindset reflects more- the laughable, primitive, backward moral values of the European ruling class of those times compared to the values of informed people of today - than anything else.

It seems plenty of individuals from a certain narrow demographic still have an internalised inferiority complex towards Britain. Fairly pathetic in all fairness.

#brexitmeansneverhavingtodiscussbrexitonah

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 08:56PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Anti-Irish.

Without a shadow of a doubt and it's best not to revise history & rationalise what happened.

"The greatest evil we have to face is not the physical evil of the famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the Irish people"- Trevelyan.

Could you provide a link to that quote?

22-11-2016 09:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You should have a chat with Fauranach

I'm not sure if I should be flattered by your incessant attention, Freddy, or freaked out. But I'm definitely entertained.

Anyway, I'm delighted you've suddenly adopted a politics-free version of British history. I look forward to apologies for, rather than repeated defences of, British imperialism.

I'll be watching this space.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 09:13PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Around that time you had people actually killing people with the sort of tactics you would see from ISIS today, mass gun shootings, bombings.

In your fantasies maybe. Even if we pretend that would happen (it wouldn't) what would be the outcome sought? Humour me.

Fantasy? That is actually what happened. Add in such a political decision and it increases ten fold. It would have made the 'troubles' at the time look tame in comparison as bad as that is.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 09:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

What are you on about?

There isn't a hope in hell of Unionism staging a civil war if a UI comes around.
The British will be Unionism's greatest threat and will suffocate any supply. Unless you can fashion weapons from sticks it would be completely unsustainable. We are not in the 70's or eighties now.
A bit of Fleg - Drumcree like shenanigans/wrecking your own areas and that would be it.

The British have already dis-engaged, they have tacitly cut Unionists adrift to the mercy of the polls. (even though you don't want to admit it)

That is just an extension of how Maggie felt - until, like Arlene, she had to play to the rabble and act out the imperialist elsewhere in the Southern ocean.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/margaret-thatcher-was-not-against-united-ireland-28578929.html

I don't think you have been reading the debate on this thread properly. It was a question of Thatcher pulling Northern Ireland out of the Union, not the present day.

Anita Blow · 22-11-2016 09:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Anita Blow wrote: »

Anti-Irish.

Without a shadow of a doubt and it's best not to revise history & rationalise what happened.

"The greatest evil we have to face is not the physical evil of the famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the Irish people"- Trevelyan.

Could you provide a link to that quote?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/inaction-of-british-during-the-famine-can-be-termed-genocide-31601482.html

https://books.google.ie/books?id=4RZ_GOMsGmcC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=The+greatest+evil+we+have+to+face+is+not+the+physical+evil+of+the+famine+but+the+moral+evil+of+the+selfish,+perverse+and+turbulent+character+of+the+Irish+people&source=bl&ots=8_v9tWW0kQ&sig=QF1-QO8feqDYF7fByj_d_QQJN_U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiV3ufonL3QAhWoC8AKHUeHCGEQ6AEISzAI#v=onepage&q=The greatest evil we have to face is not the physical evil of the famine but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the Irish people&f=false

22-11-2016 09:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Could you provide a link to that quote?

A quick google produces several, so take your pick, totally off topic of course.
There's a history forum here as well.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 10:20PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I don't think you have been reading the debate on this thread properly. It was a question of Thatcher pulling Northern Ireland out of the Union, not the present day.

IT wasn't to do with Thatcher 'pulling' anything. It is the fact that she had no objection to a UI and was prepared to say toodle peep to the loyal brethren.

Hard to swallow but time Unionism did swallow it and start thinking of a future where they are not doffing hats (bowlers) to those they so want to be, but never will.
A future in a UI and Europe?

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 10:20PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A quick google produces several, so take your pick, totally off topic of course.

No you can't actually. The letter in the Indo is incorrect, as Anita's second link and Steddy Eddy's quite demonstrate. Trevelyan did not use the word Irish in his letter.

Which means Anita has proven my point nicely,

22-11-2016 11:12PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No you can't actually. The letter in the Indo is incorrect, as Anita's second link and Steddy Eddy's quite demonstrate. Trevelyan did not use the word Irish in his letter.

Which means Anita has proven my point nicely,

Maybe so, but that's history not Brexit which is something that is going to happen.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 11:22PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No you can't actually. The letter in the Indo is incorrect, as Anita's second link and Steddy Eddy's quite demonstrate. Trevelyan did not use the word Irish in his letter.

Which means Anita has proven my point nicely,

Actually Fred your complete denial of all things imperial is at play here. Before I go on I'll state that your lack of education on the empire and it's consequences is evident however this shouldn't have affected your common sense. When Trevelyan said the famine was sent to "teach the Irish a lesson" you cannot help being reminded of a post hurricane preacher blaming gays for the hurricane. He then talks about moral evil of the people. You presumably think he was talking about the French in this regard?

Trevelyans moralism is what further strengthened huge amounts of Irish racism in Britain at the time and propagated the view that it was the fault of the Irish.

A substantial amount of powerful people in Britain thought it was the fault of the Irish. Between your revisionist history of India and Ireland Fred you have no right to get on the moral highground about the IRA ect when you defend far worse actions.

Trevelyan said this:

"The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson,
that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have
to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the
selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people."

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 11:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe so, but that's history not Brexit which is something that is going to happen.

Well Brexit is informed by some of the nationalistic optimism at play here.

22-11-2016 11:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well Brexit is informed by some of the nationalistic optimism at play here.

Maybe so, but things that happened centuries ago don't play a part in Brexit, all those events do is galvanise the prejudiced opinions of some posters into hoping that Brexit will only be a disaster for Britain.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-11-2016 11:49PM

Just a reminder of what this is really about.

The collapse of the pound since Brexit has cost £1,200,000,000,000

The cost of Brexit to UK households has been put at $1.5trillion – that’s £1.2trillion – by an independent report from Credit Suisse.

According to the Global Wealth Report, since the vote on June 23, sterling lost 20 per cent of its value.

It also means that 400,000 people lost their millionaire status.

It also said that even though the FTSE 100 had hit record highs last month, it was still behind the dollar in terms of value.

Michael O’Sullivan from Credit Suisse, said: ‘The impact of the Brexit vote is widely thought of in terms of GDP (gross domestic product) but the impact on household wealth bears watching.

‘Since the Brexit vote, UK household wealth has fallen by $1.5tn. Wealth per adult has already dropped by $33,000 to $289,000 since the end of June.

catbear · 23-11-2016 01:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe so, but things that happened centuries ago don't play a part in Brexit, all those events do is galvanise the prejudiced opinions of some posters into hoping that Brexit will only be a disaster for Britain.

It would seem that the dictating manner of the brexiteers is a latent imperialistic attitude from when Britain got its own way globally.

Iwasfrozen · 23-11-2016 02:34AM

catbear wrote: »

It would seem that the dictating manner of the brexiteers is a latent imperialistic attitude from when Britain got its own way globally.

I suppose if the French leave you'll be here telling us all how that'll be a latent imperialistic attitude from when France got its own way globally.

Fratton Fred · 23-11-2016 07:14AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually Fred your complete denial of all things imperial is at play here. Before I go on I'll state that your lack of education on the empire and it's consequences is evident however this shouldn't have affected your common sense. When Trevelyan said the famine was sent to "teach the Irish a lesson" you cannot help being reminded of a post hurricane preacher blaming gays for the hurricane. He then talks about moral evil of the people. You presumably think he was talking about the French in this regard?

Trevelyans moralism is what further strengthened huge amounts of Irish racism in Britain at the time and propagated the view that it was the fault of the Irish.

A substantial amount of powerful people in Britain thought it was the fault of the Irish. Between your revisionist history of India and Ireland Fred you have no right to get on the moral highground about the IRA ect when you defend far worse actions.

As I said, the Irish version of history is little more than propaganda and any one who dare question the Irish interpretation of it is immediately closed down with shouts of revisionist, colonial apologist etc.

Thanks for proving my point Ed.

tomwaterford · 23-11-2016 07:18AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As I said, the Irish version of history is little more than propaganda and any one who dare question the Irish interpretation of it is immediately closed down with shouts of revisionist, colonial apologist etc.

Thanks for proving my point Ed.

Are you honestly argueing he wasn't referring to the irish??

Or preferring to go the pedantic route to avoid acceptance of facts??

Fratton Fred · 23-11-2016 07:40AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Are you honestly argueing he wasn't referring to the irish??

Or preferring to go the pedantic route to avoid acceptance of facts??

He was referring to the people of Ireland. It is usually described as victim blaming, but it wasn't. He held the land lords, merchants and farmers responsible.

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Famine#PoliticalEconomymarketeconomicsandtheFamine

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Letter_of_Charles_Edward_Trevelyan_to_Thomas_Spring-Rice_Lord_Mounteagle

Of course his belief in free market economy and his refusal to intervene were catastrophic, but you can quite clearly see what he meant by the evil attitude of the people.

He was also a religious nutter as were many in his day, who viewed famine as god's way of punishing people and keeping population numbers under control.

tomwaterford · 23-11-2016 07:55AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

He was referring to the people of Ireland. It is usually described as victim blaming, but it wasn't. He held the land lords, merchants and farmers responsible.

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Famine#PoliticalEconomymarketeconomicsandtheFamine

http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Letter_of_Charles_Edward_Trevelyan_to_Thomas_Spring-Rice_Lord_Mounteagle

Of course his belief in free market economy and his refusal to intervene were catastrophic, but you can quite clearly see what he meant by the evil attitude of the people.

He was also a religious nutter as were many in his day, who viewed famine as god's way of punishing people and keeping population numbers under control.

Sure while in the fun of all this.....pretty sure a John mitchel called it correctly when spoke about religion

It was God what caused blight....but the British caused the famine...

Or can irish nationlists opinion on this be listened to??

Fratton Fred · 23-11-2016 09:09AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Sure while in the fun of all this.....pretty sure a John mitchel called it correctly when spoke about religion

It was God what caused blight....but the British caused the famine...

Or can irish nationlists opinion on this be listened to??

If course it can, but as you pointed out, that is a nationalist opinion, not gospel.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Comments