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Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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Comments

  • #2192
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As if to reinforce Tony Connolly's points above, I was surely not the only person here who had a déjà vu to about July 1990 when listening to the radio news this week: the British and Irish governments publicised a territorial dispute they are having about rights over Lough Foyle.

    Brexit revives territorial dispute over Lough Foyle between UK and Ireland (17 November 2016)


  • #2193
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    As if to reinforce Tony Connolly's points above, I was surely not the only person here who had a déjà vu to about July 1990 when listening to the radio news this week: the British and Irish governments publicised a territorial dispute they are having about rights over Lough Foyle.

    Brexit revives territorial dispute over Lough Foyle between UK and Ireland (17 November 2016)

    Jesus I'm hardly a die hard republican but I wish the remnants of the British empire on this island just died.


  • #2194
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Jesus I'm hardly a die hard republican but I wish the remnants of the British empire on this island just died.
    Well the last generations who remember an empire are dying out so change is coming.


  • #2195
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Deleted User wrote: »
    While the heading on Tony Connolly's piece on RTÉ at first appears a bit melodramatic, having read it it's not. If you read one piece about Brexit's impact on Ireland this should be it:

    Brexit: the hidden nightmares

    Our fisheries industry is in substantial trouble - have a look at the statistics about where the catch is landed and so forth (ironically for all the talk about Brexit being good for the British fishing industry, a massive amount of the Scottish fishing industry is owned by Norwegians, who are not in the EU). Furthermore, from reading Connolly it seems like the structure of the Irish farming industry is a nightmare of epic proportions: it is an all-Ireland industry that is going to be put bunoscionn by these jingoists. Take this:



    In terms of energy, things could be even worse:



    Again, because of these unreconciled-to-end-of-Empire sorts Ireland is going to be fúcked for being obtuse enough to put all our eggs in the one basket that belongs to our volatile, temperamental jingoistic neighbour. Admittedly on balance the North is going to suffer more (withdrawal of EU funds, even greater dependency on the 26 Counties), but if the fúcktards over in Britain opt for their beloved "hard border", let's hope the EU punishes them as much as the Irish are going to be punished by these British decisions. Repay economic terrorism with economic terrorism and that will soften their jingoistic cough quick sharp. If they choose not to be in the club, they should lose all benefits of club membership. End of.

    Lastly, we are collectively kidding ourselves if we think there will not be a hard border re-erected in our country again. It is a political priority in Britain to keep eastern European migrant labour out; they are not going to allow them in through Ireland. From the EU perspective they will need a border at the edge of the EU as a matter of principle. What might be more disconcerting from a unionist perspective is if there's a much harder political border between the North and Britain, which is politically very probable indeed.

    you really do post the most offensive, hate filled **** on these boards. The facists on Storm front would find most of what you write offensive.


  • #2196
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you really do post the most offensive, hate filled **** on these boards. The facists on Storm front would find most of what you write offensive.

    You should remember the glass houses phrase considering the colonial apologism you wrote about India Fred. It's a lot more insulting to generations who suffered there. Anti colonialism does not mean hate filled.


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  • #2197
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You should remember the glass houses phrase considering the colonial apologism you wrote about India Fred. It's a lot more insulting to generations who suffered there. Anti colonialism does not mean hate filled.

    I thought you were better than that. I would expect that sort of twisted comment from Fuaranach.


  • #2198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    ...

    Interesting take on things, from the website's veteran apologist of everything British imperial. I note you're not disagreeing with anything in the RTÉ article, predictably enough. Out of nothing more than jingoism and resentment at the French and Germans you've made your bed, and are determined to tuck yourselves very tightly into it. And given the enormous consequences for Irish society that the article outlined, you expect your political tradition to have respect from Irish people?

    It's up to the Irish government and the EU negotiators to ensure that you're not going to bring us down with you in your collective harikari.


  • #2199
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I thought you were better than that...

    Hilarious. I've lost count of the number of times you've used this trite "I thought you were better" patter to a poster when they called you out for what you are.


  • #2200
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I thought you were better than that. I would expect that sort of twisted comment from Fuaranach.

    You fail to realise how insulting you and little ponies's views can be Fred.


  • #2201
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You fail to realise how insulting you and little ponies's views can be Fred.

    Oh please, you were wrong about the history of India, get over it.


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  • #2202
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Oh please, you were wrong about the history of India, get over it.

    No I wasn't Fred. You're in complete denial about the British atrocities carried out in India.


  • #2203
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Hilarious. I've lost count of the number of times you've used this trite "I thought you were better" patter to a poster when they called you out for what you are.

    When I think posters are better than a post they write, I will say so. Eddy is a well educated articulate poster whose opinions I respect.

    You will note, I have not, not will I ever, use that phrase in relation to the bigoted bull**** you post.


  • #2204
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No I wasn't Fred. You're in complete denial about the British atrocities carried out in India. No better than an IRA apologist except much less died at the hands of the IRA.

    When did I deny atrocities in India?


  • #2205
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    you really do post the most offensive, hate filled **** on these boards. The facists on Storm front would find most of what you write offensive.

    That's rich coming from someone who tries to deny our very nationhood.

    You didn't address Fuaranach's points because getting rainy-faced over them is easier than having to accept thier accuracy.


  • #2206
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    That's rich coming from someone who tries to deny our very nationhood.

    You didn't address Fuaranach's points because getting rainy-faced over them is easier than having to accept thier accuracy.

    Lol, "deny nationhood" over react much?


  • #2207
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Lol, "deny nationhood" over react much?

    LOL. That's precisely what you were engaging in. LOL.

    Anyway, why don't you address Fuaranach's points instead of flinging your toys out of the pram?


  • #2208
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    LOL. That's precisely what you were engaging in. LOL.

    Anyway, why don't you address Fuaranach's points instead of flinging your toys out of the parm?

    Wow, are you so insecure about your national identity you are that scared to admit that Britain and Ireland aren't that different?

    Fuaranach actually raises some interesting points, but the bigoted sensationalist crap he surrounds them with are difficult to ignore.

    Ultimately though, the Irish government will have a seat at the negotiations so will be able to look after Ireland's interests, not is the eu going to do anything that puts a member state in an impossible position.


  • #2209
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Wow, are you so insecure about your national identity you are that scared to admit that Britain and Ireland aren't that different?

    Fuaranach actually raises some interesting points, but the bigoted sensationalist crap he surrounds them with are difficult to ignore.

    Ultimately though, the Irish government will have a seat at the negotiations so will be able to look after Ireland's interests, not is the eu going to do anything that puts a member state in an impossible position.

    The EU aren't always reasonable. I think brexit is lose lose for all involved.


  • #2210
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The EU aren't always reasonable. I think brexit is lose lose for all involved.

    With regards the border, the GFA is paramount and a hard border could jeopardize that. The UK has said they don't want one, but if the eu insist on one, the Irish government has a difficult decision to make, which could involve Ireland's future in the eu.

    I just can't see the eu being that unreasonable.


  • #2211
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,434 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    With regards the border, the GFA is paramount and a hard border could jeopardize that. The UK has said they don't want one, but if the eu insist on one, the Irish government has a difficult decision to make, which could involve Ireland's future in the eu.

    I just can't see the eu being that unreasonable.

    What the UK say is irrelevant at the moment as it is not known how reasonable UK demands will be therefore it may be the UK demands that insist on a hard border and not the EU


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  • #2212
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    If the English get this Brexit thing wrong, and don't stimulate their economy, the north is probably going to suffer most from cuts.

    The GFA allows the people in the north east to break UK jurisdiction and I hope they do. Can you imagine the horror those fools in the DUP would feel if the electorate rewarded their pro-Brexit pseudo-British Nationalism with a United Ireland?


  • #2213
    Dyr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »

    The GFA allows the people in the north east to break UK jurisdiction and I hope they do. Can you imagine the horror those fools in the DUP would feel if the electorate rewarded their pro-Brexit pseudo-British Nationalism with a United Ireland?

    Just the sound of their teeth gnashing and wailing would make it worth it.


  • #2214
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    With regards the border, the GFA is paramount and a hard border could jeopardize that. The UK has said they don't want one, but if the eu insist on one, the Irish government has a difficult decision to make, which could involve Ireland's future in the eu.

    I just can't see the eu being that unreasonable.
    We don't have to imagine it, when the UK government is being unreasonable enough for everybody.

    They may have said they don't want a hard border, but that's simply not a credible stance until they commit to something like single market membership or, at the very least, participation in the EU customs union. If the UK wants to regulate for itself the flow of people in and out of the UK, and the flow of goods in and out of the UK, and the imposition of tariffs on those goods, then quite simply they need a hard border. Saying that they don't want a hard border is a bit like saying they want to stay in the single market but don't want free movement; it's the kind of sh!te they're going to have to stop before anyone will take them seriously.


  • #2215
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Again, because of these unreconciled-to-end-of-Empire sorts Ireland is going to be fúcked for being obtuse enough to put all our eggs in the one basket that belongs to our volatile, temperamental jingoistic neighbour. Admittedly on balance the North is going to suffer more (withdrawal of EU funds, even greater dependency on the 26 Counties), but if the fúcktards over in Britain opt for their beloved "hard border", let's hope the EU punishes them as much as the Irish are going to be punished by these British decisions. Repay economic terrorism with economic terrorism and that will soften their jingoistic cough quick sharp. If they choose not to be in the club, they should lose all benefits of club membership. End of.
    In fairness, what Ireland will in fact be looking for will be the very trade deal possible between Britain and the EU post brexit for the simple reason that a good trade deal between the EU and the UK is also most likely to be a good trade deal between Ireland and the UK. A report by the ESRI recently suggested that Ireland will suffer more than the UK if the if the EU punish the UK by insisting on hard borders and tariffs with Ireland.


  • #2216
    Bit cynical
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    They may have said they don't want a hard border, but that's simply not a credible stance until they commit to something like single market membership or, at the very least, participation in the EU customs union. If the UK wants to regulate for itself the flow of people in and out of the UK, and the flow of goods in and out of the UK, and the imposition of tariffs on those goods, then quite simply they need a hard border. Saying that they don't want a hard border is a bit like saying they want to stay in the single market but don't want free movement; it's the kind of sh!te they're going to have to stop before anyone will take them seriously.
    I think it is important to remember that free movement of people existed between the Ireland and the UK before free movement existed between countries of the EU. If a hard border is therefore created between the two countries, the primary impetus will come from the EU - not the UK - though the UK may be forced to respond in kind.


  • #2217
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If the UK wants to regulate for itself the flow of people in and out of the UK, and the flow of goods in and out of the UK, and the imposition of tariffs on those goods, then quite simply they need a hard border.

    Another possible option is that anyone travelling from Ireland to Britain is considered a potential immigrant/refugee and is required to prove they're not. Imo that would be the most efficient method of 'securing the realm'.

    Just imagine Unionists travelling to Britain from Ireland having to follow the same protocols as their 'fellow Irishmen' regardless of jurisdiction.

    Schadenfreude.


  • #2218
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Bit cynical wrote: »
    I think it is important to remember that free movement of people existed between the Ireland and the UK before free movement existed between countries of the EU. If a hard border is therefore created between the two countries, the primary impetus will come from the EU - not the UK - though the UK may be forced to respond in kind.
    I don't think that's right. Yes, there was a common travel area between the UK and Ireland before either country joined the EU, but:

    1. This co-existed with a somewhat hard border. There wasn't free movement of goods between the two countries, and there were customs controls in place.

    2. More to the point, the common travel area was possible because the UK and Ireland each agreed, in effect, to enforce one another's migration policies. If you arrived in the UK as someone who wouldn't be entitled to enter Ireland, you wouldn't be admitted to the UK, and vice versa. This worked, obviously, only because the two countries had very similar migration policies.

    Both countries still have similar migration policies, because both are in the EU. But a significant factor in the UK's Brexit decision, it seems, is the desire to run a more restrictive immigration policy. If the UK wants to (say) not afford free movement to citizens of Romania, Bulgaria or Poland, a Common Travel Area on the old model becomes impossible unless Ireland imposes similar restrictions on Romanians, Bulgarians and Poles which, obviously, we are not going to do, and cannot do as long as we remain in the EU.

    In this scenario it's the UK which will want and need to end the Common Travel Area. The primary impetus will not be coming from the EU. The UK wants to control its own borders, and that's simply not consistent with a Common Travel Area involving an EU Member State.


  • #2219
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,954 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Another possible option is that anyone travelling from Ireland to Britain is considered a potential immigrant/refugee and is required to prove they're not. Imo that would be the most efficient method of 'securing the realm'.

    Just imagine Unionists travelling to Britain from Ireland having to follow the same protocols as their 'fellow Irishmen' regardless of jurisdiction.

    Schadenfreude.
    The issue is not whether someone arriving in the UK is "a potential immigrant/refugee"; it's whether they have a right to enter the UK. Do they need a visa? And, if so, do they have one?

    It would be practical to divide the UK into two distinct migration areas, and control who travels from Britain to Ireland rather than who travels from the Republic to the North. The NI migration area could be in a CTA with the Republic, and could effectively have the same migration policy as the Republic, but Britain would not be in a CTA, and would have a separate migration policy.

    While it would suit us down to the ground, it would be wholly unacceptable to the majority in NI for the reasons you have identified. It would also be unacceptable in Britain because, if NI can have its own migration policy, then why can't Scotland, with a view to Scotland remaining in the EEA? And pretty soon you're heading down the road to the kind of splintering of the UK that a Conservative government could never countenance.


  • #2220
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The issue is not whether someone arriving in the UK is "a potential immigrant/refugee"; it's whether they have a right to enter the UK. Do they need a visa? And, if so, do they have one?

    It would be practical to divide the UK into two distinct migration areas, and control who travels from Britain to Ireland rather than who travels from the Republic to the North. The NI migration area could be in a CTA with the Republic, and could effectively have the same migration policy as the Republic, but Britain would not be in a CTA, and would have a separate migration policy.

    While it would suit us down to the ground, it would be wholly unacceptable to the majority in NI for the reasons you have identified. It would also be unacceptable in Britain because, if NI can have its own migration policy, then why can't Scotland, with a view to Scotland remaining in the EEA? And pretty soon you're heading down the road to the kind of splintering of the UK that a Conservative government could never countenance.
    The idea to check immigrants at southern Irish ports and airports was myopically shot down by the Irish government I believe. Maybe it's time to explore that idea if we want to avoid a hard border.


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  • #2221
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    The idea to check immigrants at southern Irish ports and airports was myopically shot down by the Irish government I believe. Maybe it's time to explore that idea if we want to avoid a hard border.

    Ya....let's give dissidents a couple hundred shiny handy targets along the border....which the British army can't be posted too :rolleyes:


This discussion has been closed.
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