Louise O Neill on rape culture.

FortySeven · 19-11-2016 10:03PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Indeed, which kinda makes her a hard person to dislike for me, as I can she has had some difficulties in her life and also that these beliefs which she clings to have been partially responsible for her doing better in life and so to then say she is deluded for holding these views takes on an extra dimension as a result, which is unfortunate as I genuinely don't think anyone would take pleasure in seeing her regress with regards to her health. Career wise, perhaps.

Seemingly in her teens and early 20's she suffered quite badly with anorexia and bulimia and it's cool that she seems to be "80% better" now and I certainly wouldn't begrudge her the success she has had with that first novel (Only Ever Yours) which is a book she wrote to express her view that patriarchal society, and they way it is structured, puts enormous pressure on girls to look a certain way. Something which she without question feels contributed to her becoming ill.

http://www.thejournal.ie/louise-oneill-1765821-Nov2014/

It is not men pushing these ideals. It is women, go read closer, go read Cosmo. Men don't write that tripe.

And if you think attention seeking behaviour as a teen is a difficult life then I have a bridge I can sell you.

midnight city · 19-11-2016 10:06PM

me_right_one wrote: »

I dont give a fluck how sick she was or is. If Nigel Farage had bulimia, I wouldnt give a fluck either. It might explain their behaviour, but it doesnt excuse it.

I agree, plenty of people have had a tough time in life. But most of those don't get a platform in the national media to rant and rave abut how bad men are. I think she is dangerous and divisive. The articles she writes are inflammatory and could create bad feeling between the sexes, especially for people who are easily influenced. The patriarchy nonsense is tiresome too.

LLMMLL · 20-11-2016 12:11AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Well... yes. I mean you're talking about situations involving two completely different types of groups with completely different dynamics. Of course there are going to be different drivers of behaviour.

You're putting words in my mouth. You're the one trying to make a connection between very different scenarios. Lets look at the facts. People will ignore bad behavior in strangers in a number of different scenarios. People will ignore bad behavior in their friends in a number of different scenarios. Which do you think is more likely: That the same thing is happening in cases where sexual assault is involved, or that we have a so called "rape culture"?

On the flip side there is behaviour that people won't ignore from their friends. so clearly sexual inappropriateness is not considered serious enough to warrant reprimanding. You're actually proving my point. Sexual inappropriateness is considered to be on the same level as annoying habits we put up with such as "talking about yourself all the time".

LLMMLL · 20-11-2016 12:13AM

FortySeven wrote: »

It is not men pushing these ideals. It is women, go read closer, go read Cosmo. Men don't write that tripe.

And if you think attention seeking behaviour as a teen is a difficult life then I have a bridge I can sell you.

I would say it starts out with male
Ideals even if the magazines pander to them. The current pressure to be completely hairless definitely started out with males expectations from porn and magazines have responded to that.

FortySeven · 20-11-2016 12:24AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

I would say it starts out with male
Ideals even if the magazines pander to them. The current pressure to be completely hairless definitely started out with males expectations from porn and magazines have responded to that.

Women are the first to state they don't dress for men. Are you saying they do?

Phoebas · 20-11-2016 12:51AM

Widdershins wrote: »

Wow. And how do you expect to hear of them? They don't all make headlines.

This one, however, did, and not long ago. So yes, there is a very worthwhile discussion to be had.

The rapist is a man who ''grew up within a strict Islamic culture'' according to psychologist Dr Rioghnach O'Leary. In his culture ''people like her'', the victim who has Down Syndrome, would be shut away, so he says he did not know she had Downs Syndrome.

When he moved to Ireland to find work he did not interact with any women for two years and was surprised “at the more liberal approach here”, Dr O'Leary said.
Couples holding hands and kissing on the street were “quite jarring” to him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-accused-of-raping-woman-with-down-syndrome-does-not-have-intelligence-to-adapt-to-social-norms-in-ireland-trial-hears-34286366.html

Is that an 'Islamic rape' because the rapist grew up in an 'Islamic culture'?
Are we categorising the other rapes that come before the Irish courts as 'Christian rapes'?

LLMMLL · 20-11-2016 12:54AM

FortySeven wrote: »

Women are the first to state they don't dress for men. Are you saying they do?

Like everyone they dress to look well. What "looks well" is a cultural thing and of course is partly influenced by men but is also influenced by women and other trends. Remember the poncho craze a few years back? Seriously doubt that was to impress guys.

FortySeven · 20-11-2016 01:10AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Like everyone they dress to look well. What "looks well" is a cultural thing and of course is partly influenced by men but is also influenced by women and other trends. Remember the poncho craze a few years back? Seriously doubt that was to impress guys.

So you are now saying it is a bit of both? What percentages would you offer?

Some figures on straight male participation within women's fashion and media would be telling me thinks.

LLMMLL · 20-11-2016 01:17AM

FortySeven wrote: »

So you are now saying it is a bit of both? What percentages would you offer?

Some figures on straight male participation within women's fashion and media would be telling me thinks.

Firstly there's no need for ridiculousness. How would anyone quantify as a percentage the various influences on women's fashion.

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with. I just said mens tastes had nothing to do with the poncho craze.

What I said was that women dress to look well. Just like men do. That's not exclusively determined by male tastes. If it was then anyone with a great body would be out in lingerie or butt naked. Like any cultural trend involving taste there are multiple factors. Do you really have trouble grasping that?

FortySeven · 20-11-2016 01:34AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Firstly there's no need for ridiculousness. How would anyone quantify as a percentage the various influences on women's fashion.

I'm not sure what you're taking issue with. I just said mens tastes had nothing to do with the poncho craze.

What I said was that women dress to look well. Just like men do. That's not exclusively determined by male tastes. If it was then anyone with a great body would be out in lingerie or butt naked. Like any cultural trend involving taste there are multiple factors. Do you really have trouble grasping that?

You stated it all began with male ideals of women. I disagreed. You then changed to women dress well for the sake of it.

I'm looking for the goalposts but they appear to have been moved?

LLMMLL · 20-11-2016 01:41AM

FortySeven wrote: »

You stated it all began with male ideals of women. I disagreed. You then changed to women dress well for the sake of it.

I'm looking for the goalposts but they appear to have been moved?

I haven't changed. It's a mix. I would say some trends are about pleasing males such as shaved genitals. In terms of fashion the current trend in some subcultures to show off a lot of flesh is probably influenced by male desires. As I've said other trends like ponchos seem unlikely to be to impress men.

But that's not to say all women who dress to show flesh are trying to get men. It may start out that way but then it becomes a trend. And people follow trends. If everyone else has their tots hanging out then you're more likely to follow them regardless of how much of a desire for male attention you have.

Widdershins · 20-11-2016 02:02AM

Phoebas wrote: »

Is that an 'Islamic rape' because the rapist grew up in an 'Islamic culture'?
Are we categorising the other rapes that come before the Irish courts as 'Christian rapes'?

Islamic rape is the term the poster I responded to used. They were confusing the question of an islamic rape culture, and islamic rape.
He/she said there are no islamic rapes in Ireland.
That was a rape by a muslim man whose worldview and approach to women was shaped by his islamic upbringing.
Given the thousands of men brought up with the same ideals by their islamic communities, it is clear that there is a case for the islamic rape culture idea.
Do explain what the issue with that is?

We would categorise your example if the religion and culture combined had bearing on the rape.

Phoebas · 20-11-2016 09:31AM

Widdershins wrote: »

Islamic rape is the term the poster I responded to used. They were confusing the question of an islamic rape culture, and islamic rape.
He/she said there are no islamic rapes in Ireland.
That was a rape by a muslim man whose worldview and approach to women was shaped by his islamic upbringing.
Given the thousands of men brought up with the same ideals by their islamic communities, it is clear that there is a case for the islamic rape culture idea.
Do explain what the issue with that is?

We would categorise your example if the religion and culture combined had bearing on the rape.

There are a number of things that we don't know about this particular rape, amongst them the religion of the rapist.
So its quite a wild extrapolation to call this an 'Islamic rape' (as you did), let alone use it as evidence of an 'Islamic rape culture'.

I think you're just cynically using this to promote a different agenda.

Widdershins · 20-11-2016 11:34AM

Phoebas wrote: »

There are a number of things that we don't know about this particular rape, amongst them the religion of the rapist.
So its quite a wild extrapolation to call this an 'Islamic rape' (as you did), let alone use it as evidence of an 'Islamic rape culture'.

I think you're just cynically using this to promote a different agenda.

Of course we know his religion. If you had read the comment of mine you're replying to you would know he had ''a strict islamic upbringing''. If you don't understand what that means a little reading might be in order.

I can't discuss something with someone who assumes things about me without bothering to read my comment.

I'm very clear on my view on religiously indoctrinated people. The more heavily indoctrinated the more they concern me. Try reading what's actually written before attempting to read between the lines and making insinuations.

Phoebas · 20-11-2016 12:36PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Of course we know his religion. If you had read the comment of mine you're replying to you would know he had ''a strict islamic upbringing''. If you don't understand what that means a little reading might be in order.

I can't discuss something with someone who assumes things about me without bothering to read my comment.

I'm very clear on my view on religiously indoctrinated people. The more heavily indoctrinated the more they concern me. Try reading what's actually written before attempting to read between the lines and making insinuations.

Of course that quote isn't what was actually written either in your post or in the indo piece that you referenced.
Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

Then maybe you could get to the substantive argument that a rape committed by a Muslim is an 'Islamic rape', or that one rape by one Muslim in Ireland is evidence of an 'Islamic rape culture' here.

Muhammed_1 · 20-11-2016 12:53PM

Widdershins wrote: »

...
The rapist is a man who ''grew up within a strict Islamic culture'' according to psychologist Dr Rioghnach O'Leary. In his culture ''people like her'', the victim who has Down Syndrome, would be shut away, so he says he did not know she had Downs Syndrome.

When he moved to Ireland to find work he did not interact with any women for two years and was surprised “at the more liberal approach here”, Dr O'Leary said.
Couples holding hands and kissing on the street were “quite jarring” to him.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-accused-of-raping-woman-with-down-syndrome-does-not-have-intelligence-to-adapt-to-social-norms-in-ireland-trial-hears-34286366.html

I blame our politicians for this.

In the same way as our government stood by and watched as the Catholic church raped thousands of Irish children it appears our cowardly government intends to stand by and watch while Islam gains a foothold in Ireland.

Our politicians are the problem.

Islamic rapists are only the symptom.

Our politicians are the problem.

We need to reject blindness, leftism, liberalism, and other failed ideaologies.

We need to stand up to Pakistani postmen, and to pakistani rapists.

The ultimate cause of our problems is our politicians.

Widdershins · 20-11-2016 12:53PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Of course that quote isn't what was actually written either in your post or in the indo piece that you referenced.
Perhaps you should practice what you preach.

Then maybe you could get to the substantive argument that a rape committed by a Muslim is an 'Islamic rape', or that one rape by one Muslim in Ireland is evidence of an 'Islamic rape culture' here.

Oh for God's sake, here you go:

The rapist is a man who ''grew up within a strict Islamic culture'' according to psychologist Dr Rioghnach O'Leary.

Now go and ask the person who coined the term ''islamic rape'' on this thread what Islamic Rape means. It's not far behind my comment that you replied to. As it's not my term I can't define it for you but my belief would be that it's rape by a man with attitudes to women that conform to the prevailing attitudes of the Islamic society he comes from. This is evidently the case in the instance of the rape of the woman with Downs Syndrome.

If you spent as much time informing yourself about attitudes to women and sexuality in Islamic countries as you have spent on my comment, you'd be in a much better position to say something substantial.

Out of curiosity, what do YOU think the possibilities are? This man with a Quranic name, from a strict Islamic culture, with attitudes that reflect that culture, is he really a scientologist? I suggest you read this article as it explains the treatment of mentally impaired people in his culture, sheds more light on the attitudes towards women and relationships, and the judge's comments are very interesting. Then maybe you'll have the decency to give up trying to defend a vile rapist who has no respect for female human beings and the culture that made him believe that what he is, is normal.

http://www.thejournal.ie/man-guilty-rape-woman-down-syndrome-dublin-2510398-Dec2015/

Widdershins · 20-11-2016 12:55PM

Muhammed_1 wrote: »

I blame our politicians for this.

In the same way as our government stood by and watched as the Catholic church raped thousands of Irish children it appears our cowardly government intends to stand by and watch while Islam gains a foothold in Ireland.

Our politicians are the problem.

Islamic rapists are only the symptom.

Our politicians are the problem.

We need to reject blindness, leftism, liberalism, and other failed ideaologies.

We need to stand up to Pakistani postmen, and to pakistani rapists.

The ultimate cause of our problems is our politicians.

Postmen?

People can't stand up to something they don't yet realise exists..see previous comments!

Muhammed_1 · 20-11-2016 01:02PM

The 'postmen' reference is a cultural reference to a movie, The Snapper.

The Snapper wrote:

How do you know it was a spanish sailor? Sure it could have been a pakistani postman for all you know!

darkdubh · 20-11-2016 08:48PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/we-should-find-what-we-love-and-do-as-much-of-it-as-we-can-431251.html

That is just nuts.

darkdubh · 20-11-2016 08:52PM

WTF?

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/800287500417667072

Poor Uncle Tom · 20-11-2016 09:02PM

Laughable really, her envy has taken to wearing a prosthetic.....:D

It's reflective of the mental age you are dealing with......

osmiumartist · 20-11-2016 09:03PM

darkdubh wrote: »

WTF?

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/800287500417667072

JFC, she really does think her making a fart is front page news doesn't she? Professional troll. Don't feed (that includes anybody idiotic enough to pay her).

Ulysses Gaze · 20-11-2016 09:11PM

darkdubh wrote: »

That is just nuts.

Some of this stuff, like hacking her sisters Facebook account, is bordering on some sort of psychosis.

And I really hope her ex did not give her his email passwords. WTF is that about? No girlfriend I have had has EVER asked me for that type of information.

It's just not normal behaviour.

Ineedaname · 20-11-2016 10:04PM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Some of this stuff, like hacking her sisters Facebook account, is bordering on some sort of psychosis.

And I really hope her ex did not give her his email passwords. WTF is that about? No girlfriend I have had has EVER asked me for that type of information.

It's just not normal behaviour.

Having read some of her other articles she isn't just an attention seeker but someone with serious issues that needs professional help.

Chaos Black · 20-11-2016 10:40PM

What's more worrying, is that she has an audience large enough, that someone, is willing to pay her! Or maybe it is just boards.ie propping her up..(I doubt it)

me_right_one · 20-11-2016 10:56PM

darkdubh wrote: »

WTF?

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/800287500417667072

Am I seeing things, or is that an erection? :eek:

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-11-2016 11:00PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Am I seeing things, or is that an erection? :eek:

I think it just shows how she packs.

RonFan · 20-11-2016 11:01PM

Ineedaname wrote: »

Having read some of her other articles she isn't just an attention seeker but someone with serious issues that needs professional help.

It's gotten to the point where a substantial portion of the female populous in western nations fit the criteria for what was once an uncommon level of neurosis. Not a majority by any means but a growing minority. Some women coming up in our modern culture -where gender relations are in a state of crises - have begun to chronically repress their feminine impulses, specifically those relating to woman's role in family/relationships that is still a part of our internal program but is no longer deemed tenable to our hyper-individualistic and power/status-driven value system. This then manifests as an obsessive world-view where literally everything resolves around the oppression of women by men.

The internet has exasperated this by a lot, as these women form echo-chambers with each other that serve to consolidate the most absurd of views as ultimate truth, when really what's happening is mass wound-poking.

BoatMad · 20-11-2016 11:20PM

RonFan wrote: »

It's gotten to the point where a substantial portion of the female populous in western nations fit the criteria for what was once an uncommon level of neurosis. Not a majority by any means but a growing minority. Some women coming up in our modern culture -where gender relations are in a state of crises - have begun to chronically repress their feminine impulses, specifically those relating to woman's role in family/relationships that is still a part of our internal program but is no longer deemed tenable to our hyper-individualistic and power/status-driven value system. This then manifests as an obsessive world-view where literally everything resolves around the oppression of women by men.

The internet has exasperated this by a lot, as these women form echo-chambers with each other that serve to consolidate the most absurd of views as ultimate truth, when really what's happening is mass wound-poking.

have we moved to the 19th century !, bring back hysterical paroxysm I say , old chap

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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