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Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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Comments

  • #1322
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    wow. you dont like her clothes so her opinion can be ignored? I think you've just proven her point for her.

    So that's not what I said at all. Is this the level of discussion now?

    I said that it was absolutely acceptable to, as YOU put it "criticise somebody because you don't approve of how they are dressed".

    Clothing choices are an indirect form of communication and so, when presenting a documentary about a serious topic, a poorly judged choice of clothing can cast doubt over the sincerity, and perhaps honesty, of the speaker.

    Here's another criticism. When people like you bring this level of disingenuous nonsense to the conversation then the conversation goes nowhere. Well done.


  • #1323
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    orubiru wrote: »
    So that's not what I said at all. Is this the level of discussion now?

    you tell me. you think her clothing choices have a bearing on her appropriateness to lead a discussion. Surely it is the way she conducts herself that is important. it is a discussion not a fashion show.

    ETA: You need to separate the person from what they are saying. sometimes even people you dont approve of have worthwhile things to say.


  • #1324
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you tell me. you think her clothing choices have a bearing on her appropriateness to lead a discussion. Surely it is the way she conducts herself that is important. it is a discussion not a fashion show.

    ETA: You need to separate the person from what they are saying. sometimes even people you dont approve of have worthwhile things to say.

    "Sometimes even people you dont approve of have worthwhile things to say".

    Yeah, thanks for that Captain Obvious. Maybe you could put that on a greeting card or something?

    I think that her clothing choices were at odds with the content and severity of the topic being discussed.

    I think that her willingness to turn a discussion about sexual assault and rape into a discussion about her wardrobe has a bearing on her appropriateness to lead the discussion.

    As I said, it would have been easier for her to just say the documentary was not about her or her clothing and so she won't be commenting on her clothes at all. She could have suggested we get back to a discussion about the actual issues. Did she do that?

    In a way you are quite correct. There is no way a conversation about sexual assault and rape should end up being a conversation about the clothing worn by the presenter. Here we are though. Who takes responsibility for that?


  • #1325
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    orubiru wrote: »
    "Sometimes even people you dont approve of have worthwhile things to say".

    Yeah, thanks for that Captain Obvious. Maybe you could put that on a greeting card or something?

    I think that her clothing choices were at odds with the content and severity of the topic being discussed.

    I think that her willingness to turn a discussion about sexual assault and rape into a discussion about her wardrobe has a bearing on her appropriateness to lead the discussion.

    As I said, it would have been easier for her to just say the documentary was not about her or her clothing and so she won't be commenting on her clothes at all. She could have suggested we get back to a discussion about the actual issues. Did she do that?

    In a way you are quite correct. There is no way a conversation about sexual assault and rape should end up being a conversation about the clothing worn by the presenter. Here we are though. Who takes responsibility for that?

    Sarcasm is really good debating device. Best of luck with whatever it is you are trying to achieve.


  • #1326
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Mortpourvelo wrote: »
    Clothes aren't the issue - your behaviour is.

    Don't f**king straddle someone in a club and then act the novice nun virgin.

    What if friends of the man you straddled decide your behaviour means you're happy to be approached by any man? Or more than approached?


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  • #1327
    sashafierce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭sashafierce


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1328
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    sashafierce wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    In the early 70's Esther Vilar spoke about this in her book The Manipulated Man and was adamant that it would only get worse and she was dead right. I say women should wear what they want but do so honestly. Men are not as stupid as these women think. Well, some men are but mostly guys aren't daft. If a woman's is wearing a dress that requires gaffer tape to stop her boobs popping out, then she is doing so to attract attention to that part of her body, in the same a muscle bound guy who wears a muscle top wants people to see how built he is (circumstance dependent of course). Which is all cool.. but there's a time and place for it is all.

    In any case, I see this morning she has taken some honesty pills.


    https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/799209153235283968


  • #1329
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    wow. you dont like her clothes so her opinion can be ignored? I think you've just proven her point for her.
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Sarcasm is really good debating device. Best of luck with whatever it is you are trying to achieve.

    wow. you dont like my sarcasm so my opinion can be ignored? I think you've just proven my point for me.

    Look, I am just giving my opinion. The same as everybody else.

    I don't necessarily believe that our culture promotes or normalises rape but I do see rape and sexual assault as serious societal issues that need to be addressed.

    Ultimately the problem needs to be understood before it can be solved (if it can even be solved). This will require us, at some point, to have people who are competent leading the conversation. It will require sensible and level-headed social commentary and rational debate.

    Of course, Louis O'Neill is great at getting people wound up and getting the conversation out there but eventually you need someone who can set the agenda and start making real change. She seems unable to do that. In fact, she comes off as a bit of an arrogant, narcissistic, Trump-esque buffoon.

    She will achieve nothing other than stoking her own ego and lining her own pockets and our society will be here in 20, 50, 100 years time having the same conversations over and over. That's just my opinion.


  • #1330
    sashafierce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭sashafierce


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1331
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    orubiru wrote: »
    wow. you dont like my sarcasm so my opinion can be ignored? I think you've just proven my point for me.

    Look, I am just giving my opinion. The same as everybody else.

    I don't necessarily believe that our culture promotes or normalises rape but I do see rape and sexual assault as serious societal issues that need to be addressed.

    Ultimately the problem needs to be understood before it can be solved (if it can even be solved). This will require us, at some point, to have people who are competent leading the conversation. It will require sensible and level-headed social commentary and rational debate.

    Of course, Louis O'Neill is great at getting people wound up and getting the conversation out there but eventually you need someone who can set the agenda and start making real change. She seems unable to do that. In fact, she comes off as a bit of an arrogant, narcissistic, Trump-esque buffoon.

    She will achieve nothing other than stoking her own ego and lining her own pockets and our society will be here in 20, 50, 100 years time having the same conversations over and over. That's just my opinion.


    I didnt ignore your opinion. I just made it clear I wasnt interested in debating it further.


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  • #1332
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ThatLeftHand wrote: »
    So if a news presenter wore swimming trunks while presenting the news would think nothing of it?


    I would think it a bit odd but nothing more. It wouldnt change the validity of what they are saying.


  • #1333
    Mortpourvelo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 393 ✭✭Mortpourvelo


    ThatLeftHand wrote: »
    She is a self obsessed twat.

    Step back, we've got a winner!!!

    She is an unmitigated disaster.


  • #1334
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ThatLeftHand wrote: »
    Yes and the comment that was merely made was that Louise's outfit seemed a bit incongruous and distracting. Yet Louise made a song and dance about it and proceeded to make hundreds of tweets, facebook posts and articles about. She is a self obsessed twat.

    i find it hard to disagree with that.


  • #1335
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    I'd love opinions on when a woman straddles a man in a club (or does anything along those lines) and later gets unwanted attention from his mates


  • #1336
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    ThatLeftHand wrote: »
    So long as the mates take the attention away once she communicates its unwanted then ai don't see the issue.

    Of course, but I have heard of certain men being unusually forward once they knew a woman had been 'physical' with a man they knew. If they treat her no differently than any other woman, of course that's no problem. So you don't think she ''deserves everything she gets'' (to paraphrase) for straddling the first man..


  • #1337
    givyjoe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Of course, but I have heard of certain men being unusually forward once they knew a woman had been 'physical' with a man they knew. If they treat her no differently than any other woman, of course that's no problem. So you don't think she ''deserves everything she gets'' (to paraphrase) for straddling the first man..

    What are you trying to get at? Does she deserve to be raped?! Of course not.

    If the attention is unwanted then of course and doesn't 'stop', then well it turns into assault or physical assault.. or whatever depending on whathappens.

    If she doesn't decline the attention and one thing leads to another, what's the issue? Same logic applies to the girl straddling the man in the first place.


  • #1338
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    givyjoe wrote: »
    What are you trying to get at? Does she deserve to be raped?! Of course not.

    If the attention is unwanted then of course and doesn't 'stop', then well it turns into assault or physical assault.. or whatever depending on whathappens.

    If she doesn't decline the attention and one thing leads to another, what's the issue? Same logic applies to the girl straddling the man in the first place.

    I was responding to

    Clothes aren't the issue - your behaviour is.

    Don't f**king straddle someone in a club and then act the novice nun virgin.

    And wondering what the poster thinks is fair game if someone straddles a man in a club.


  • #1339
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,214 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I'd love opinions on when a woman straddles a man in a club (or does anything along those lines) and later gets unwanted attention from his mates

    I would be of the view, as would most clearer-minded thinkers, that the young lady in question has made it quite clear that she would like to be approached by the straddlee, and not necessarily by his mates. I'd consider it polite to wait until myself straddled before approaching.


  • #1340
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I would be of the view, as would most clearer-minded thinkers, that the young lady in question has made it quite clear that she would like to be approached by the straddlee, and not necessarily by his mates. I'd consider it polite to wait until myself straddled before approaching.

    Good stuff.

    You see, I thought the general idea was that a slapper, being someone who makes it clear either by dress or behaviour, that she puts out, is expected to be more receptive to a more advanced expression of interest. And a woman straddling a man in public would presumably be considered a slapper by those who believe in such a thing.


  • #1341
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,151 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Good stuff.

    You see, I thought the general idea was that a slapper, being someone who makes it clear either by dress or behaviour, that she puts out, is expected to be more receptive to a more advanced expression of interest. And a woman straddling a man in public would presumably be considered a slapper by those who believe in such a thing.


    so you think she is "asking for it"?


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  • #1342
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,214 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Good stuff.

    You see, I thought the general idea was that a slapper, being someone who makes it clear either by dress or behaviour, that she puts out, is expected to be more receptive to a more advanced expression of interest. And a woman straddling a man in public would presumably be considered a slapper by those who believe in such a thing.

    A woman who is quite obviously pregnant is making it abundantly clear that she "puts out" as well, and that's hardly and invitation to approach her. No, all the slightly overenthusiastic young lady in our hypothetical example above is making perfectly clear, in terms of concrete imperial evidence, is that she's interested in being approached by one particular gentleman. The rest of us should have the manners to under-read it.


  • #1343
    Widdershins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so you think she is "asking for it"?

    No. And I don't believe there's such a thing as a slapper.
    I'm trying to work out if people who do believe in slappers think those women are asking for it.


  • #1344
    Mortpourvelo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 393 ✭✭Mortpourvelo


    Widdershins wrote: »
    No. And I don't believe there's such a thing as a slapper.
    I'm trying to work out if people who do believe in slappers think those women are asking for it.

    My point - badly made I grant you - is that should said woman claim to have been raped by the straddlee, then I would not believe it for a second.

    I never said anything about a third party.

    However, look at the sort on the likes of Geordie Shore and the Valleys etc. You see them in court all poshed up crying and you're not gonna believe a word.


  • #1345
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    jimgoose wrote: »
    I would be of the view, as would most clearer-minded thinkers, that the young lady in question has made it quite clear that she would like to be approached by the straddlee..

    Well in fairness now. If she's straddling him then his choice with regards to approaching her or not has somewhat been made for him :p


  • #1346
    jimgoose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,214 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Well in fairness now. If she's straddling him then his choice to approach her or not has somewhat been made for him :p

    Indeed so. And it isn't whining about it on the Twitter he'll be either, if he has any sense! :D


  • #1347
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    Widdershins wrote: »
    No. And I don't believe there's such a thing as a slapper.
    I'm trying to work out if people who do believe in slappers think those women are asking for it.

    This is where I think a documentary or an investigation on "rape culture" would actually need to take the step of asking a convicted rapist these kind of questions.

    There must surely be men in prison who have committed these crimes in the circumstances we are loosely describing here. Do these men believe in slappers? Do these men believe they were asking for it? Surely it makes sense to ask them "why the hell did you do this and what the hell were you thinking"?

    On whether or not the average person believes in "slappers" or thinks that they are asking for it? I just don't know. I think you can go to a nightclub and see ladies who are there "looking to pull" but I don't think it's fair to treat them badly or disrespect them because of this.

    Is it ever appropriate to approach a woman in a nightclub?

    If it is OK to approach then how should a man select which ladies he wants to approach? If there's a woman dancing with her friends clearly dismissing approaches and another woman going around talking to lots of different guys is it OK for a man to approach the woman who seems like she might be more receptive to said approach?

    I guess a part of "ending Rape Culture" would involve teaching people how to successfully navigate these social environments?


  • #1348
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Outlaiw Pete wrote: »
    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Who has the right to control what anyone else wears?

    If a man wrote a book about male gang rape.. I'd think it was inappropriate if they dressed like a member of Right Said Fred when doing interviews regarding the book and attempting to get a discussion going on such a serious topic . It's not about "control" .. it's about suitable attire. Swimmers at the Olympics stride around in their underwear, but have you ever heard someone castigating them for that? Of course not because the clothing is something which is appropriate for that occasion.

    People should of course be able to wear what the hell they want to wear but there are suitable ways of dressing for certain occasions, for both men and women, and while we should have the right to always make that choice ourselves (outside of certain employments) it is not unreasonable to infer disrespect or an ulterior motive when someone dresses in a way which we in western society deem to be largely unsuitable for specific settings. Go to a funeral a white party dress or a white suit for example and you're going to garner some negative reactions. To complain about such reactions afterwards is either indicative of someone being extremely naive or someone playing dumb to avoid being called out for nefarious calculation.

    Ridiculous.

    That is pathetic. If a man was gang raped it would not cross my mind to ask what he was wearing.

    Do you ever think it is some men's archaic minds that need changing. Again, no one had the right to control what another human being wears.


  • #1349
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,310 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Ridiculous.

    That is pathetic. If a man was gang raped it would not cross my mind to ask what he was wearing.

    That is not what was being said there at all in the post you quoted.

    The post clearly outlines that it was an interview situation being discussed, there was absolutely nothing about being gang raped due to ones attire.


  • #1350
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Ridiculous.

    That is pathetic. If a man was gang raped it would not cross my mind to ask what he was wearing.

    Do you ever think it is some men's archaic mindsthat neea

    Why would you respond like this?

    You CLEARLY haven't read the post if this is your response.


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  • #1351
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    mzungu wrote: »
    That is not what was being said there at all in the post you quoted.

    The post clearly outlines that it was an interview situation being discussed, there was absolutely nothing about being gang raped due to ones attire.

    Or cross my mind to control what he's wearing doing interviews. What the f@ck has that got to do with anything?


This discussion has been closed.
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