DART Underground - Why it won't be built.

Grandeeod · 02-11-2016 9:22pm #1

I've discussed this new thread with a mod and got permission to start it. In general DU threads, there appears to be a negative reaction to posters talking about this project never being built. So for all who want to discuss this possibility without affecting the general DU thread, this can be the place. Personally I don't mind if posters who believe it will be built contribute here too with their opinions. Debate is good.

I am convinced that DU or any variation of it, will not be built in my lifetime. Im in my 40s. There is no political will to invest in this kind of rail infrastructure. Our poltically divided system also contributes to the problem. As one side plans something, the other side changes or cancels it. The luas debacle of the late 90s is the most recent example that can be compared to the recent deferral of DU. In fact the luas itself is a watered down version of the DART plan from the early 70s. We got Howth - Bray and after that it was a case of re-invent the wheel time after time.

So lets here your nay or yay and why.

TheQuietFella · 02-11-2016 9:32pm

It will be built but 'the Irish' way.

Spend millions on the design, realise that it cost too much, work on plan B from
9-5 only for a decade and then do a massive U-turn and revert back to plan A.
By the time it will be built they'll need a new underground system!

dublinman1990 · 03-11-2016 2:37am

I do envisage to have this project built on time & up to a modern standard but I do have a few underlying concerns about how people could feel in how they see the project as a whole & what benefits are delivered to them. People may or may not agree with this but hear me out.

There are a number of posters here on boards & everywhere else online in this country that want to have this project finished but we don't know what the actual general opinion of people who live outside of the internet is about when we talk about this project. They may or may not care about this project not getting built. They may in secret actually care for the extra few quid behind the scenes at the end of the day to pay for their mortgage or to look after their general health by not getting sick or whatever. So they may not care about an infrastructure project getting built to better the country's way of life.

I do feel there is a huge disconnect with how the State, the NTA are included in this as well, in how they envisage getting this project built perfectly & up to scratch with no need for further major improvements down the road. The manner in which the Irish state in how it builds it's infrastructure is sometimes poor & sometimes narrow minded. When we talk to a Irish person in Rural or Urban Ireland about major infrastructure projects; there is one or a few things on their minds.

And that is either Roads, Water, Housing or Health etc. Nothing else seems to come up within the general stratosphere of discussion after that.

Having debates & discussions on all of that stuff mentioned above is all well & good for a lot of people in this country. But my goodness the way these things are being discussed ad nauseum on a daily basis by the media can actually drive someone like me absolutely mad if these things are discussed at a constant rate of going on a road to nowhere.

Having discussions on a project like DART Underground feels refreshing in some way in that some PS out there in the state actually thought of an idea that will help modernise the country's railway network to be impacted with a huge impact on growing passenger numbers going into the future. It all sounds so brilliant in it's idea but when we do the execution by attempting to build these projects on the very first try we somehow hit a brick wall somewhere. Someone out there in government circles or whatever would have to say to us that this project has to be redrawn because of some government mandate from the front & back benches of government to say we have to redesign just to save more money for us in the future. Every other project that has that trouble has so far in the past or the current time monumentally failed to address these certain cost saving measures in an effective & cohesive manner.

When we have to hear of these projects being redrawn again & again, a rinse & repeat cycle if you like to call it, it happens all too often in this country & it needs to instantly stop.

We hear of other projects from the state & the NTA being redesigned all the time in Ireland. That is a surprise for a small country of over 4 million people but somehow life barely notices it & we somehow go on as normal. It feels like it is nothing of significance to them to say that this type of charade needs to be immediately stopped. Someone in the NTA had the gall in messing up MN recently who said that we have redesign it by reducing the length of it's platforms to a length from 90m to 60m. That is some more of the €2 billion being spent going down the swanny & nothing within their own rules is there to even stop it from happening again.

Another thing that I will highlight is with the SG double deckers in the Dublin Bus fleet. My goodness the build quality of those buses really are terrible to be in. I got the 7 from Blackrock to O'Connell Street last Saturday & I noticed something quite odd which I found on the top deck of the bus. I was sitting near the back seats & there above me was a huge crack along a section of the ceiling near the back window in the middle of the bus. I don't know how this happened but someone must have managed to hoof their head to hit the bloody thing. I should have highlighted this problem to the driver. I only discovered this problem when the bus was passing through Haddington Road in Ballsbridge. Another problem I had was that the bus that I was travelling in was full when it left RDS Simmonscourt out towards town because the DART on that day was not running a full service. The line was partially closed down due to engineering works between Connolly Station & Grand Canal Dock. So I had no option in myself but to leave & forget about it when I got completely off the bus in town.

The government & the NTA somehow have given expectations to us to use these services along with the current DART & Luas to go around Dublin City Centre & the GDA on a daily basis when these services are already at overcapacity. I mean why the hell does need to be happening when DU can be built to make a big impact in alleviating nearly all of those problems in one go.

There was another issue that had the infrastructure was in the news for the wrong reasons & that was about the building of the New Children's Hospital. This is a very good example of a big project like this one can become too big to fail from day one. Redesign after redesign after redesign after new committee after new committee & so on & so forth really had put in the the status of being a laughing stock. It took years to get this project off the line & now we are seeing something of a final miracle to say that the project is being built in the grounds of St James Hospital. Let's hope that this project will be a huge success for the future.

Now I will be very worried about DU or MN being victims of being redesigned in a repeat cycle over & over again over several years because we as a country seemingly don't have the bottle to get these projects right the first time we build them. If the state had more confidence in themselves in getting this project over the line & to actually get this built within the right space & time allowed; it will help in a huge way to boost it's straggling reputation something right for once. The benefits of DU are already be proven to be very beneficial in boosting the profile of Ireland's other railway services for a very long time to come.

Idbatterim · 03-11-2016 1:50pm

I think it will be built at some stage, simply due to the fact, they wont be able to get away with not building it and that is the only reason. Look at car sales, just wait till proper bad weather and gridlock hits and its only going to get worse...

I also dont believe the original scheme was overengineered, for once, when we were swimming in money, I simply believe it to be a non botch job for a change. The same with metro north.

Their claims about growth etc are blatant lies. Economy is bigger than ever, higher population than before boom AFAIK, dublin traffic worse than ever, housing crisis worse than ever, higher need for property now than during the boom.

As far as i am concerned, once we dont have another bust, the longer this goes on, as in a few years, the better. Because year on year (with current growth and how much worse the situation is getting) the case for going back to an original scheme is getting stronger and stronger.

Look we live in Ireland, nothing gets done until serious pressure is put on the establishment. There are a lot of us, that knows the difference this would make to dublin and the country. Most dont...

no doubt this being ireland, it will be another compromise job. I.e what we are getting. If substantial savings could be made, that make sense, I am all for it. I dont believe this to be the case on either project... They are so hell bent on the headline cost, it appears they dont care about value.

So on metro north for example, they cant just say, we will start again to save 3-4%, so they come up with bull**** solutions to reduce cost, to make it appear a wortwhile saving, the reduced platform length to save nothing is beyond a joke, reduced rolling stock? simply order less initially, oat grade on ballymun road was already ruled by ABP that it should be in tunnel AFAIK, then the oconnell bridge stop, a compromuse to save what, less than a hundred million on the sheme? most of which will flow back to government coffers anyway?

cant wait to see the proposed re-designs, I am expecting they will be a joke. Luckily many here will question them, and fight them...

LuckyLloyd · 03-11-2016 2:42pm

I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project. The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.

Idbatterim · 03-11-2016 3:27pm

I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project. The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.

This! and I was going to post it in my above piece, but you could write forever. A bloody joke looking for approval from everyone, including the 99% who havent a bloody clue! Funny how we do everything so differently here and wonder why nothing works!

the only thing is, in hindsight, had they been called dart cross city and luas north, politically and to the idiot masses, it may have been an easier sell, than "boom time esque" metro and dart underground...

as soon as we see the plans, if they are a joke. I may well be taking facebook ads to highlight this targeting Dublin at least. (contributions financially or in terms of content would be appreciated). the media wont do it and the boards forum is too small. They only move here, when you apply pressure to them... The aim of the ads would be to embarass the government over the entire sham and also inform the public, most of whom dont have a clue of the benefits a proper system would make to their lives...

Zebra3 · 03-11-2016 8:12pm

It will be built eventually in some form or other for no other reason than the city is close to gridlock.

When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.

It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.

Idbatterim · 03-11-2016 9:00pm

It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.

swords to drumcondra, the exact route that metro north would have served and gotten you there in what? sub twenty minutes surely?

Middle Man · 03-11-2016 11:58pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

It will be built eventually in some form or other for no other reason than the city is close to gridlock.

When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.

It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.

That sort of happened over the roads - we finally saw some action in the naughties after much embarrassment on the international stage. If I printed off some images of the M50 today and somehow managed to travel back to 1984 (the year I saw Glasgow's motorway system as an 11 year old) and showed them in public back then, I wouldn't make it back as I would be committed. I certainly would be sectioned with construction images of the Rathmorrissy Interchange in the West. Regarding Dublin's Rail network, you never know...

Middle Man · 04-11-2016 12:04am

DART Underground must be built in full - in fact, I'd scale up with the addition of direct interchange escalators at Pearse Station - I know of the experience in London regarding interchange capacity at stations because of the vast volumes of pedestrians entering, egressing and interchanging at the same time.

strassenwo!f · 04-11-2016 12:33am

I still hope that the OP is incorrect about this.

As many on this board will remember, the DU project was extensively presented, for many years, as a way of getting around 'The Connolly Bottleneck' (much of which is now being dealt with by the city centre resignalling project).

I've always thought felt that the DU project should be promoted as a way of delivering proper, effective and economical transport to and from the west of the city, linking it with the pretty well-served east via central locations.

This would probably be best achieved using spurs from the Heuston-Hazelhatch line, where scope exists, so that it's eventually just as easy for someone to get rapidly into the centre of town from Neilstown, for example, as it is from Harmonstown, and so that there could be rapid connections to high population areas like Clondalkin and Tallaght.

Much like a big pheasant's tail, really, on the west side of the city, feeding into a central point.

That's where the really big benefit lies with this project, and while that's denied it's probably not going to happen.

marno21 · 04-11-2016 8:04pm

Here's the official line as of yesterday in a question posed to Shane Ross by Jack Chambers of FF

Shane Ross wrote:

The National Transport Authority's Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) for the period 2016 - 2035, which was approved and published earlier this year, proposes implementation of the DART Expansion Programme which will provide DART services as far north as Drogheda, to Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line, and to Maynooth in the west and to the M3 Parkway.

Funding for some elements of the DART Expansion Programme is included in the Capital Plan which was published in September last year. Specifically, funding is provided for the extension of the DART to Balbriggan on the Northern line.

The extension of the DART to Maynooth and to the M3 Parkway would provide an enhancement to existing services for commuters from the wider catchment areas in Counties Kildare and Meath, including Kilcock and Enfield. The extension of DART to Maynooth would also necessitate the construction of the DART Underground Tunnel. As the Deputy will be aware, the Government decided in September 2015 that the original proposal for the tunnel should be redesigned and work is underway on that at present. The final scheme will, of course, be subject to availability of funding and will likely be considered in the context of the next Capital Plan post-2021.

So, funding up until 2021 will only cover design of the scheme and the only actual part of the plan that will be built is a DART extension to Balbriggan.

After 2021, it's anyone's guess.

Carawaystick · 08-11-2016 1:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

So, funding up until 2021 will only cover design redesign of the scheme and the only actual part of the plan that will be built is a DART extension to Balbriggan.

After 2021, it's anyone's guess.

fyp !
:mad:

LeinsterDub · 08-11-2016 1:57pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

fyp !
:mad:

Don't you mean re-re-re-re-design?

jackofalltrades · 08-11-2016 3:56pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project.
The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.

Because they're the voters at the end of the day.
An extra €1-5 a week on social welfare rates is a much bigger vote getter than an underground project for Dublin.
Add in "pay restoration" to unsustainable boom time levels and infrastructure spending is pushed back further on the list of priorities.

Zebra3 wrote: »

When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.

I'd say it will take a MNC to cancel or leave the country and publicly state that it was because of the poor infrastructure in Dublin for something to happen.

Grandeeod · 08-11-2016 6:10pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

I'd say it will take a MNC to cancel or leave the country and publicly state that it was because of the poor infrastructure in Dublin for something to happen.

I would agree that something as drastic as that will have to happen if we are to see any kind of movement. However I believe our politicians would propose more light rail and bus corridors. They might even try squeeze a few more trains onto the existing commuter network. The step up to a project like DU is too big for our politicians. Its been too big since the first proposals in the 1970s. Its not a vote getter and shouldn't even be considered an issue for the electorate. Its a project that relies on competent governance to provide transport solutions that improve the life quality for citizens.

Six years ago it was said on these forums that the state would re-invent the wheel in realtion to DU and MN. Thats exactly what the state has done. Because thats what the state has always done.

Idbatterim · 08-11-2016 6:22pm

Six years ago it was said on these forums that the state would re-invent the wheel in realtion to DU and MN. Thats exactly what the state has done. Because thats what the state has always done.

thats what THIS state has done and always done...

Grandeeod · 08-11-2016 6:25pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

thats what THIS state has done and always done...

Thats what I said.

BonnieSituation · 15-11-2016 2:48pm

So it's agreed.

BonnieSituation · 15-11-2016 5:17pm

The fact that people (and the govt) need to be convinced of the benefits of DU show how utterly unlikely it is that this will be built.

The cost benefit of it to the WHOLE ISLAND must be off the charts.

When even posters on here talk about how we haven't gotten a handle on the cost of living or housing but don't connect that to rubbish transportation infrastructure then you know we have a problem.

Everything in Ireland is taken in isolation. Nothing is joined up and the benefits and the failures of everything are looked at singularly.

When arguments against DU include "the residents of East Wall will have to endure the drilling and they won't even get a new station" then you know you're screwed.

Tbh, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not raising my family here and whilst it's galling to try and convince my better half that life in Ireland isn't for me it's surprising that it takes any convincing and that's until I discuss the benefits of Denmark or Sweden to her. (Denmark for my MSc is the destination of choice whereas she has a grá for Sweden).

The mad thing is that I'm moving abroad to study Urban and Transportation planning. Great eh?

Until politics is totally removed from our planning system then nothing of note will happen.

pigtown · 17-11-2016 2:01pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The fact that people (and the govt) need to be convinced of the benefits of DU show how utterly unlikely it is that this will be built.

The cost benefit of it to the WHOLE ISLAND must be off the charts.

When even posters on here talk about how we haven't gotten a handle on the cost of living or housing but don't connect that to rubbish transportation infrastructure then you know we have a problem.

Everything in Ireland is taken in isolation. Nothing is joined up and the benefits and the failures of everything are looked at singularly.

When arguments against DU include "the residents of East Wall will have to endure the drilling and they won't even get a new station" then you know you're screwed.

Tbh, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not raising my family here and whilst it's galling to try and convince my better half that life in Ireland isn't for me it's surprising that it takes any convincing and that's until I discuss the benefits of Denmark or Sweden to her. (Denmark for my MSc is the destination of choice whereas she has a grá for Sweden).

The mad thing is that I'm moving abroad to study Urban and Transportation planning. Great eh?

Until politics is totally removed from our planning system then nothing of note will happen.

I'm totally in support of DartU but can you elaborate on this? What benefit will it be to me for example, living in Limerick?

lucernarian · 17-11-2016 6:51pm

Two off the top of my head would be to signifantly improve IR revenue so that it can stand on its own two feet more (and reduce excuses for running the remaining rural trackage into the ground, or the PSO subvention). The other would be that it significantly helps people entering Dublin on intercity trains to access other trains going to other part of the country.

It has the capability to support Cork to Belfast trains but that probably won't happen.

A third one would be to support the move away from diesel pollution and reduce carbon consumption, and help meet our targets as a country.

marno21 · 17-11-2016 7:25pm

pigtown wrote: »

I'm totally in support of DartU but can you elaborate on this? What benefit will it be to me for example, living in Limerick?

You can get the train to Dublin and not half to get off well outside the city centre, for example you could get the DART to Stephens Green and the Metro to the airport, and not have to drive to Dublin and spend hours in traffic.

Limerick needs it's own solutions too, but these are different and unique to Limerick (e.g. PT for the University etc)

pigtown · 18-11-2016 11:02pm

That's great and all but could I then make the same claim for a cross city tram in LImerick city? In that people won't have to walk from the train station to the cit centre?

strassenwo!f · 19-11-2016 12:15am

This whole thread had to be cleared with the moderators before it could be introduced to the board.

Yet this current discussion about this major transport project for Dublin (and the country as a whole) has now developed into a situation where a moderator of this very board is presenting his/her views on Limerick's transport on this thread, in a post with no reference to Dublin's transport or the project in the thread title.

After just over two pages.

W, lads, TF?

marno21 · 19-11-2016 12:22am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

This whole thread had to be cleared with the moderators before it could be introduced to the board.

Yet this current discussion about this major transport project for Dublin (and the country as a whole) has now developed into a situation where a moderator of this very board is presenting his/her views on Limerick's transport on this thread, in a post with no reference to Dublin's transport or the project in the thread title.

After just over two pages.

W, lads, TF?

Apologies, I didn't even check the title of the thread before replying. Post deleted.

Back to DART Underground.

pigtown · 19-11-2016 1:38pm

I'm a he, and what did I miss?

Again Strassenwolf you describe the project as major for the country as a whole but I'm not convinced this is the case. Exactly how will it benefit people outside of Dublin?

mickoneill31 · 19-11-2016 1:55pm

pigtown wrote: »

I'm a he, and what did I miss?

Again Strassenwolf you describe the project as major for the country as a whole but I'm not convinced this is the case. Exactly how will it benefit people outside of Dublin?

Absolutely non scientific or backed up by any evidence but I know companies look at infrastructure as one criteria of where they're looking to set up offices. Can they set up in areas that their staff can get to easily or is the transport system a mess.

Dublin is creaking at the seams I think for transport at the moment, and we're trying to attract companies to relocate here once Brexit happens. We don't seem to have office spaces in Dublin city and our major ring road is a car part for a significant portion of the time.

Obviously Transport is only one area any company will look at when looking to set up in Ireland so it's not a make or break decision but for me as an employee I left my last company because I was fed up of the M50. Multiply that by a few thousand and companies start to pay attention.

Like it or not many companies don't even look outside Dublin when considering Ireland (I was involved in a project years ago for a major company) so if they discount Dublin because of transport then the whole country loses (a few hundred jobs, a few million in taxes etc. etc.).

With that said it's not specific to Dart Undergound or any one project. DU is just one small piece in a chain that many other cities I've been in, seem to have figured out. If we get Dart Underground I'm sure we'll have to discuss for several more years for the next minor upgrade to infrastructure.

pigtown · 19-11-2016 2:39pm

So essentially it's what's good for Dublin is good for the country? I agree that's true, and I don't really want to derail the thread but can't you make that claim about anything that's built is of benefit to the whole country, as it will generate additional tax income that will go to central government.

Again, I'm totally supportive of DartU but I don't think you're going to get widespread support for it (if that's what you're want) by claiming it's going to benefit everyone when it's not.

Sam Russell · 19-11-2016 5:42pm

Why was it OK to build the Port Tunnel, which has benefited Dublin hugely by taking the HGVs out of the city centre, but it is not OK to build the DU or MN which would remove a large number of cars from the city centre?

DU will provide a rapid way of traversing the quays for public transport users that is not provided by buses or trams.

If the Clongriffin-Airport spur is built in conjunction, it will allow rapid transfer to CC.

No brainer really - but how do you persuade those with no brains?

Sleeper12 · 19-11-2016 7:19pm

It will be built & OP I'm optimistic that you'll live well into your 80s. So I do believe we'll see it in our lifetime. However between Trump, Britex & every union demanding celtic Tiger wages for workers I don't think we'll see it in the short term.

D.L.R. · 19-11-2016 7:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why was it OK to build the Port Tunnel, which has benefited Dublin hugely by taking the HGVs out of the city centre, but it is not OK to build the DU or MN which would remove a large number of cars from the city centre?

Short answer, bad planning.

The Port Tunnel was a motorway tunnel at a time of massive motorway construction. DU is a completely different animal and a far bigger project with expertise required that we don't even have. I'm not convinced the state actually has the capacity to make it happen. We've never even managed a bog standard metro line, let alone a full sized rail tunnel with full size stations.

Which brings me to my next point.

DU's full role is still surprisingly vague... will it be Dart-only services or a mainline for all types of services including intercity trains? That hasn't been clarified sufficiently. Does it even need to be a full sized mainline railway tunnel?

The idea of a metro-sized DU tunnel hasn't been given enough consideration for me, as it would still deliver the primary objective of a cross city metro service. I'm not sure a full size railway tunnel is absolutely essential for a city region of less than 2 million people.

If its so impossible/prohibitively expensive to do a full size rail tunnel then what about a metro sized DU? Comments welcome.

Sleeper12 · 19-11-2016 7:23pm

BonnieSituation wrote:

The fact that people (and the govt) need to be convinced of the benefits of DU show how utterly unlikely it is that this will be built.

BonnieSituation wrote:

The cost benefit of it to the WHOLE ISLAND must be off the charts.

Totally agree here. I don't use public transport but I spend 25 plus hours per week getting to my jobs all over Dublin. I'm in favour not because I can switch to public transport but because the better public transport we have in Ireland the more people will use it. This in turn will take a some of the cars off lets say the m50. So I will get the benefit even if I never use public transport

markpb · 19-11-2016 8:08pm

D.L.R. wrote:

The Port Tunnel was a motorway tunnel at a time of massive motorway construction. DU is a completely different animal and a far bigger project with expertise required that we don't even have.

I'm not sure that's true. The difficulty is building the tunnel. Putting tarmac or rail lines inside it is more or less irrelevant in terms of complexity.

D.L.R. wrote:

If its so impossible/prohibitively expensive to do a full size rail tunnel then what about a metro sized DU?.

What do you mean by a full sized tunnel?

Sam Russell · 19-11-2016 8:54pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Short answer, bad planning.

The Port Tunnel was a motorway tunnel at a time of massive motorway construction. DU is a completely different animal and a far bigger project with expertise required that we don't even have. I'm not convinced the state actually has the capacity to make it happen. We've never even managed a bog standard metro line, let alone a full sized rail tunnel with full size stations.

Which brings me to my next point.

DU's full role is still surprisingly vague... will it be Dart-only services or a mainline for all types of services including intercity trains? That hasn't been clarified sufficiently. Does it even need to be a full sized mainline railway tunnel?

The idea of a metro-sized DU tunnel hasn't been given enough consideration for me, as it would still deliver the primary objective of a cross city metro service. I'm not sure a full size railway tunnel is absolutely essential for a city region of less than 2 million people.

If its so impossible/prohibitively expensive to do a full size rail tunnel then what about a metro sized DU? Comments welcome.

The DU tunnel could be a single bore the size of one Port tunnel - not sure why not as most of the London Underground and the Paris Metro is built like that.

The DU can allow Malahide to Hazelhatch, or even Kildare but I doubt diesels could work over the length of the tunnel without suffocating the passengers. I think Bray to Maynooth, and Malahide to Hazelhatch is the plan.

The key is to maintain the 1.6m gauge so the trains can operate over the Dart line. The Bakerloo line has small trains that operate in conjunction with Overground (full size) trains.

If MN is built with 1.6m gauge, then the possibility allows for connection to the Northern line at, say Donabate, and continue it onto the old Harcourt Line at Ranelagh, with the Luas turning left or right at the canal. Perhaps that is too much like crayoning.

murphaph · 20-11-2016 8:34am

We're taking these big tech and finance companies for granted in Dublin. They will eventually get sick of their employees complaining about terrible commutes and start to look elsewhere. Might already be happening for all we know. This period was our golden opportunity to capitalise on their presence and further drive investment in Dublin.

The rest of the country needs to get behind the idea of pushing Dublin as our world city.

plodder · 20-11-2016 11:10am

The fact there is talk of expanding the reach of existing lines rather than building new ones, shows that people (politicians and the public) don't really get the benefit of a network. Made this point loads of times before. DART underground is seen as a tunnel between two mainline stations (that already have a tunnel between them), and not as the core/foundation of a new network.

The loss of the web summit is partly down to infrastructure like public transport. That's a hundred million a year lost to the city. What other opportunities are being lost for same reason? Brexit will probably identify potential (lost) opportunities worth billions.

D.L.R. · 20-11-2016 12:10pm

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. The difficulty is building the tunnel. Putting tarmac or rail lines inside it is more or less irrelevant in terms of complexity.

Not really. Building the rail systems and integrating it into the existing network and streets above at multiple sites is much more difficult than having a road tunnel thats only accessible from the two ends.

Not condoning it by the way, spending a decade building motorways and virtually nothing else was moronic.

markpb wrote: »

What do you mean by a full sized tunnel?

One large enough for mainline trains, ie Irish Rail trains. Metro trains and tunnels are generally smaller. Metro North is planned as a smaller metro tunnel, not a mainline railway tunnel. Huge difference in size.

D.L.R. · 20-11-2016 12:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The DU tunnel could be a single bore the size of one Port tunnel - not sure why not as most of the London Underground and the Paris Metro is built like that.

London doesn't have single bore tube lines. The earliest lines are cut-and-cover, and the later ones are small profile twin tube. Not sure about Paris. I think Spain has single bore tunnels, could be a solution I guess. Seems less safe though.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The DU can allow Malahide to Hazelhatch, or even Kildare but I doubt diesels could work over the length of the tunnel without suffocating the passengers. I think Bray to Maynooth, and Malahide to Hazelhatch is the plan.

The key is to maintain the 1.6m gauge so the trains can operate over the Dart line. The Bakerloo line has small trains that operate in conjunction with Overground (full size) trains.

If MN is built with 1.6m gauge, then the possibility allows for connection to the Northern line at, say Donabate, and continue it onto the old Harcourt Line at Ranelagh, with the Luas turning left or right at the canal. Perhaps that is too much like crayoning.

So long as DU uses Irish gauge it doesn't really matter how large or small the tunnel is. Having two gauges hinders us though, for sure.

LeinsterDub · 20-11-2016 2:05pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

So long as DU uses Irish gauge it doesn't really matter how large or small the tunnel is. Having two gauges hinders us though, for sure.

He's referring to the size of the bore of the tunnel not the gauge of the rails. Like how the red and green lines have the same rail gauge but different clearance gauge.

D.L.R. · 20-11-2016 2:38pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

He's referring to the size of the bore of the tunnel not the gauge of the rails. Like how the red and green lines have the same rail gauge but different clearance gauge.

The Dart could operate from Hazelhatch to Malahide just fine through a smaller bore. Just need smaller Darts!

Sam Russell · 20-11-2016 4:16pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

He's referring to the size of the bore of the tunnel not the gauge of the rails. Like how the red and green lines have the same rail gauge but different clearance gauge.

No I'm not.

I am referring to the use of 1.6m gauge that Irish Rail uses. Why we went for 4ft 8.5 inch for the Luas (I presume) was to buy off the shelf standard gauge trams at a small saving compared to the overall cost.

The difference in gauge is 6.5 inches or 16.5 cm, which is too small to run three rails so four rails would be needed if dual gauge operation was to be considered which would be madness.

The distance between the tracks is also important, but that only applies if the trains are significantly wider.

DU and electrifying the Maynooth line and the line out to Hazelhatch would need to be part of the plan but not necessarily of the DU project. The overall idea is to build a network independent of the roads that support the bus and Luas systems.

Extending the Dart to Balbriggan or even Belfast would achieve nothing for Dublin traffic. What is needed is the ability to get from any place in Dublin City to any other with no more than one change within a reasonable time. Buses would only achieve this if there were few cars, bus lanes and no parking on bus routes.

Maybe BRT might achieve this in the short term, but trams would only be slightly more expensive and use the same type of road design.

BRT involves restricting cars, so why not restrict them anyway?

LeinsterDub · 20-11-2016 5:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

No I'm not.

I am referring to the use of 1.6m gauge that Irish Rail uses. Why we went for 4ft 8.5 inch for the Luas (I presume) was to buy off the shelf standard gauge trams at a small saving compared to the overall cost.

DU is always going to be Irish gauge. When would a Luas ever be running in it? I don't understand why this is even being discussed?

Idbatterim · 20-11-2016 9:45pm

I agree about the one change max point, anything more than that, and getting out of the car is a lot, lot less attractive...

murphaph · 20-11-2016 9:51pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree about the one change max point, anything more than that, and getting out of the car is a lot, lot less attractive...

Ah it depends how good the connections are really. I have to take a regional train in to central station where I change onto a tram and head to the kindergarten with my son. Then I either take a bus direct to my office if I have timed it well or take 2 underground trains if not. Generally it all works. Obviously I'd prefer no changes if it were an option but I wouldn't buy a house in a certain location to make it happen as the job can move anyway.

Bray Head · 20-11-2016 10:08pm

plodder wrote: »

The fact there is talk of expanding the reach of existing lines rather than building new ones, shows that people (politicians and the public) don't really get the benefit of a network. Made this point loads of times before. DART underground is seen as a tunnel between two mainline stations (that already have a tunnel between them), and not as the core/foundation of a new network.

Very true. Ironically enough DB and IE always refer to their services as a 'network' when they aren't really. Modal and intra-modal switches aren't really that common in Dublin.

Dart Underground actually has the potential to make planning a journey with changes involved useful and feasible. The benefit is not only of getting from Connolly to Heuston but of the fact that it makes more of existing infrastructure.
This is not something that Irish politicians really get.

Sam Russell · 20-11-2016 11:40pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Very true. Ironically enough DB and IE always refer to their services as a 'network' when they aren't really. Modal and intra-modal switches aren't really that common in Dublin.

Dart Underground actually has the potential to make planning a journey with changes involved useful and feasible. The benefit is not only of getting from Connolly to Heuston but of the fact that it makes more of existing infrastructure.
This is not something that Irish politicians really get.

Connolly to Heuston is not possible by DU, unless you change at Pearse.

However it does make the Dart from Malahide to Heuston possible and Bray to Maynooth possible (assuming the electrify the line to Maynooth) And Airport to SSG (assuming they build the Clongriffin spur).

The joining of the two Luas lines is also a misnomer - they just cross each other. They are still two separate lines with no connection at all. The connection is just for stock transfer.

marno21 · 20-11-2016 11:49pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Connolly to Heuston is not possible by DU, unless you change at Pearse.

However it does make the Dart from Malahide to Heuston possible and Bray to Maynooth possible (assuming the electrify the line to Maynooth) And Airport to SSG (assuming they build the Clongriffin spur).

The joining of the two Luas lines is also a misnomer - they just cross each other. They are still two separate lines with no connection at all. The connection is just for stock transfer.

Airport to SSG would surely be handled by Metro North when built, which at present will be before the expansion of the DART Network.

Sam Russell · 20-11-2016 11:58pm

marno21 wrote: »

Airport to SSG would surely be handled by Metro North when built, which at present will be before the expansion of the DART Network.

True - maybe that is why DU will not be built. Still think the Airport - Clongriffin - DU would be quicker.

Bray Head · 21-11-2016 12:04am

Sam Russell wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

Airport to SSG would surely be handled by Metro North when built, which at present will be before the expansion of the DART Network.

True - maybe that is why DU will not be built. Still think the Airport - Clongriffin - DU would be quicker.

Quicker to build or a quicker journey time???

Sam Russell · 21-11-2016 12:05am

Bray Head wrote: »

Quicker to build or a quicker journey time???