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DART Underground - Why it won't be built.

  • 02-11-2016 9:22pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    I've discussed this new thread with a mod and got permission to start it. In general DU threads, there appears to be a negative reaction to posters talking about this project never being built. So for all who want to discuss this possibility without affecting the general DU thread, this can be the place. Personally I don't mind if posters who believe it will be built contribute here too with their opinions. Debate is good.

    I am convinced that DU or any variation of it, will not be built in my lifetime. Im in my 40s. There is no political will to invest in this kind of rail infrastructure. Our poltically divided system also contributes to the problem. As one side plans something, the other side changes or cancels it. The luas debacle of the late 90s is the most recent example that can be compared to the recent deferral of DU. In fact the luas itself is a watered down version of the DART plan from the early 70s. We got Howth - Bray and after that it was a case of re-invent the wheel time after time.

    So lets here your nay or yay and why.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭ TheQuietFella


    It will be built but 'the Irish' way.

    Spend millions on the design, realise that it cost too much, work on plan B from
    9-5 only for a decade and then do a massive U-turn and revert back to plan A.
    By the time it will be built they'll need a new underground system!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭ dublinman1990


    I do envisage to have this project built on time & up to a modern standard but I do have a few underlying concerns about how people could feel in how they see the project as a whole & what benefits are delivered to them. People may or may not agree with this but hear me out.

    There are a number of posters here on boards & everywhere else online in this country that want to have this project finished but we don't know what the actual general opinion of people who live outside of the internet is about when we talk about this project. They may or may not care about this project not getting built. They may in secret actually care for the extra few quid behind the scenes at the end of the day to pay for their mortgage or to look after their general health by not getting sick or whatever. So they may not care about an infrastructure project getting built to better the country's way of life.

    I do feel there is a huge disconnect with how the State, the NTA are included in this as well, in how they envisage getting this project built perfectly & up to scratch with no need for further major improvements down the road. The manner in which the Irish state in how it builds it's infrastructure is sometimes poor & sometimes narrow minded. When we talk to a Irish person in Rural or Urban Ireland about major infrastructure projects; there is one or a few things on their minds.

    And that is either Roads, Water, Housing or Health etc. Nothing else seems to come up within the general stratosphere of discussion after that.

    Having debates & discussions on all of that stuff mentioned above is all well & good for a lot of people in this country. But my goodness the way these things are being discussed ad nauseum on a daily basis by the media can actually drive someone like me absolutely mad if these things are discussed at a constant rate of going on a road to nowhere.

    Having discussions on a project like DART Underground feels refreshing in some way in that some PS out there in the state actually thought of an idea that will help modernise the country's railway network to be impacted with a huge impact on growing passenger numbers going into the future. It all sounds so brilliant in it's idea but when we do the execution by attempting to build these projects on the very first try we somehow hit a brick wall somewhere. Someone out there in government circles or whatever would have to say to us that this project has to be redrawn because of some government mandate from the front & back benches of government to say we have to redesign just to save more money for us in the future. Every other project that has that trouble has so far in the past or the current time monumentally failed to address these certain cost saving measures in an effective & cohesive manner.

    When we have to hear of these projects being redrawn again & again, a rinse & repeat cycle if you like to call it, it happens all too often in this country & it needs to instantly stop.

    We hear of other projects from the state & the NTA being redesigned all the time in Ireland. That is a surprise for a small country of over 4 million people but somehow life barely notices it & we somehow go on as normal. It feels like it is nothing of significance to them to say that this type of charade needs to be immediately stopped. Someone in the NTA had the gall in messing up MN recently who said that we have redesign it by reducing the length of it's platforms to a length from 90m to 60m. That is some more of the €2 billion being spent going down the swanny & nothing within their own rules is there to even stop it from happening again.

    Another thing that I will highlight is with the SG double deckers in the Dublin Bus fleet. My goodness the build quality of those buses really are terrible to be in. I got the 7 from Blackrock to O'Connell Street last Saturday & I noticed something quite odd which I found on the top deck of the bus. I was sitting near the back seats & there above me was a huge crack along a section of the ceiling near the back window in the middle of the bus. I don't know how this happened but someone must have managed to hoof their head to hit the bloody thing. I should have highlighted this problem to the driver. I only discovered this problem when the bus was passing through Haddington Road in Ballsbridge. Another problem I had was that the bus that I was travelling in was full when it left RDS Simmonscourt out towards town because the DART on that day was not running a full service. The line was partially closed down due to engineering works between Connolly Station & Grand Canal Dock. So I had no option in myself but to leave & forget about it when I got completely off the bus in town.

    The government & the NTA somehow have given expectations to us to use these services along with the current DART & Luas to go around Dublin City Centre & the GDA on a daily basis when these services are already at overcapacity. I mean why the hell does need to be happening when DU can be built to make a big impact in alleviating nearly all of those problems in one go.

    There was another issue that had the infrastructure was in the news for the wrong reasons & that was about the building of the New Children's Hospital. This is a very good example of a big project like this one can become too big to fail from day one. Redesign after redesign after redesign after new committee after new committee & so on & so forth really had put in the the status of being a laughing stock. It took years to get this project off the line & now we are seeing something of a final miracle to say that the project is being built in the grounds of St James Hospital. Let's hope that this project will be a huge success for the future.

    Now I will be very worried about DU or MN being victims of being redesigned in a repeat cycle over & over again over several years because we as a country seemingly don't have the bottle to get these projects right the first time we build them. If the state had more confidence in themselves in getting this project over the line & to actually get this built within the right space & time allowed; it will help in a huge way to boost it's straggling reputation something right for once. The benefits of DU are already be proven to be very beneficial in boosting the profile of Ireland's other railway services for a very long time to come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I think it will be built at some stage, simply due to the fact, they wont be able to get away with not building it and that is the only reason. Look at car sales, just wait till proper bad weather and gridlock hits and its only going to get worse...

    I also dont believe the original scheme was overengineered, for once, when we were swimming in money, I simply believe it to be a non botch job for a change. The same with metro north.

    Their claims about growth etc are blatant lies. Economy is bigger than ever, higher population than before boom AFAIK, dublin traffic worse than ever, housing crisis worse than ever, higher need for property now than during the boom.

    As far as i am concerned, once we dont have another bust, the longer this goes on, as in a few years, the better. Because year on year (with current growth and how much worse the situation is getting) the case for going back to an original scheme is getting stronger and stronger.

    Look we live in Ireland, nothing gets done until serious pressure is put on the establishment. There are a lot of us, that knows the difference this would make to dublin and the country. Most dont...

    no doubt this being ireland, it will be another compromise job. I.e what we are getting. If substantial savings could be made, that make sense, I am all for it. I dont believe this to be the case on either project... They are so hell bent on the headline cost, it appears they dont care about value.

    So on metro north for example, they cant just say, we will start again to save 3-4%, so they come up with bull**** solutions to reduce cost, to make it appear a wortwhile saving, the reduced platform length to save nothing is beyond a joke, reduced rolling stock? simply order less initially, oat grade on ballymun road was already ruled by ABP that it should be in tunnel AFAIK, then the oconnell bridge stop, a compromuse to save what, less than a hundred million on the sheme? most of which will flow back to government coffers anyway?

    cant wait to see the proposed re-designs, I am expecting they will be a joke. Luckily many here will question them, and fight them...


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,003 ✭✭✭✭ LuckyLloyd


    I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project. The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project. The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.

    This! and I was going to post it in my above piece, but you could write forever. A bloody joke looking for approval from everyone, including the 99% who havent a bloody clue! Funny how we do everything so differently here and wonder why nothing works!

    the only thing is, in hindsight, had they been called dart cross city and luas north, politically and to the idiot masses, it may have been an easier sell, than "boom time esque" metro and dart underground...

    as soon as we see the plans, if they are a joke. I may well be taking facebook ads to highlight this targeting Dublin at least. (contributions financially or in terms of content would be appreciated). the media wont do it and the boards forum is too small. They only move here, when you apply pressure to them... The aim of the ads would be to embarass the government over the entire sham and also inform the public, most of whom dont have a clue of the benefits a proper system would make to their lives...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    It will be built eventually in some form or other for no other reason than the city is close to gridlock.

    When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.

    It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.
    swords to drumcondra, the exact route that metro north would have served and gotten you there in what? sub twenty minutes surely?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    It will be built eventually in some form or other for no other reason than the city is close to gridlock.

    When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.

    It currently takes me 50 minutes after work on the bus from Swords to Drumcondra. Look at the hours our TDs work. Most of them are oblivious to the traffic. Completely and utterly out of touch. Make TDs have to start in Leinster House at 9am and bar ministers from using bus lanes.

    That sort of happened over the roads - we finally saw some action in the naughties after much embarrassment on the international stage. If I printed off some images of the M50 today and somehow managed to travel back to 1984 (the year I saw Glasgow's motorway system as an 11 year old) and showed them in public back then, I wouldn't make it back as I would be committed. I certainly would be sectioned with construction images of the Rathmorrissy Interchange in the West. Regarding Dublin's Rail network, you never know...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭ Middle Man


    DART Underground must be built in full - in fact, I'd scale up with the addition of direct interchange escalators at Pearse Station - I know of the experience in London regarding interchange capacity at stations because of the vast volumes of pedestrians entering, egressing and interchanging at the same time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    I still hope that the OP is incorrect about this.

    As many on this board will remember, the DU project was extensively presented, for many years, as a way of getting around 'The Connolly Bottleneck' (much of which is now being dealt with by the city centre resignalling project).

    I've always thought felt that the DU project should be promoted as a way of delivering proper, effective and economical transport to and from the west of the city, linking it with the pretty well-served east via central locations.

    This would probably be best achieved using spurs from the Heuston-Hazelhatch line, where scope exists, so that it's eventually just as easy for someone to get rapidly into the centre of town from Neilstown, for example, as it is from Harmonstown, and so that there could be rapid connections to high population areas like Clondalkin and Tallaght.

    Much like a big pheasant's tail, really, on the west side of the city, feeding into a central point.

    That's where the really big benefit lies with this project, and while that's denied it's probably not going to happen.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Here's the official line as of yesterday in a question posed to Shane Ross by Jack Chambers of FF
    Shane Ross wrote:
    The National Transport Authority's Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area (GDA) for the period 2016 - 2035, which was approved and published earlier this year, proposes implementation of the DART Expansion Programme which will provide DART services as far north as Drogheda, to Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line, and to Maynooth in the west and to the M3 Parkway.

    Funding for some elements of the DART Expansion Programme is included in the Capital Plan which was published in September last year. Specifically, funding is provided for the extension of the DART to Balbriggan on the Northern line.

    The extension of the DART to Maynooth and to the M3 Parkway would provide an enhancement to existing services for commuters from the wider catchment areas in Counties Kildare and Meath, including Kilcock and Enfield. The extension of DART to Maynooth would also necessitate the construction of the DART Underground Tunnel. As the Deputy will be aware, the Government decided in September 2015 that the original proposal for the tunnel should be redesigned and work is underway on that at present. The final scheme will, of course, be subject to availability of funding and will likely be considered in the context of the next Capital Plan post-2021.

    So, funding up until 2021 will only cover design of the scheme and the only actual part of the plan that will be built is a DART extension to Balbriggan.

    After 2021, it's anyone's guess.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    marno21 wrote: »

    So, funding up until 2021 will only cover design redesign of the scheme and the only actual part of the plan that will be built is a DART extension to Balbriggan.

    After 2021, it's anyone's guess.

    fyp !
    :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭ LeinsterDub


    fyp !
    :mad:

    Don't you mean re-re-re-re-design?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,083 ✭✭✭ jackofalltrades


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand why the opinion of the population as a whole should matter here. This is a long term infrastructure investment project.
    The short term interests of politicians or the thoughts of Paidrig in Galway are irrelevant.
    Because they're the voters at the end of the day.
    An extra €1-5 a week on social welfare rates is a much bigger vote getter than an underground project for Dublin.
    Add in "pay restoration" to unsustainable boom time levels and infrastructure spending is pushed back further on the list of priorities.
    Zebra3 wrote: »
    When foreign MNCs start applying pressure to the establishment and they sh*t themselves over an exodus, we'll start to see the wheels in motion.
    I'd say it will take a MNC to cancel or leave the country and publicly state that it was because of the poor infrastructure in Dublin for something to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    I'd say it will take a MNC to cancel or leave the country and publicly state that it was because of the poor infrastructure in Dublin for something to happen.

    I would agree that something as drastic as that will have to happen if we are to see any kind of movement. However I believe our politicians would propose more light rail and bus corridors. They might even try squeeze a few more trains onto the existing commuter network. The step up to a project like DU is too big for our politicians. Its been too big since the first proposals in the 1970s. Its not a vote getter and shouldn't even be considered an issue for the electorate. Its a project that relies on competent governance to provide transport solutions that improve the life quality for citizens.

    Six years ago it was said on these forums that the state would re-invent the wheel in realtion to DU and MN. Thats exactly what the state has done. Because thats what the state has always done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,517 ✭✭✭✭ Idbatterim


    Six years ago it was said on these forums that the state would re-invent the wheel in realtion to DU and MN. Thats exactly what the state has done. Because thats what the state has always done.
    thats what THIS state has done and always done...


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,539 ✭✭✭✭ Grandeeod


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    thats what THIS state has done and always done...

    Thats what I said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,761 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    So it's agreed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,761 ✭✭✭✭ BonnieSituation


    The fact that people (and the govt) need to be convinced of the benefits of DU show how utterly unlikely it is that this will be built.

    The cost benefit of it to the WHOLE ISLAND must be off the charts.

    When even posters on here talk about how we haven't gotten a handle on the cost of living or housing but don't connect that to rubbish transportation infrastructure then you know we have a problem.

    Everything in Ireland is taken in isolation. Nothing is joined up and the benefits and the failures of everything are looked at singularly.

    When arguments against DU include "the residents of East Wall will have to endure the drilling and they won't even get a new station" then you know you're screwed.

    Tbh, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not raising my family here and whilst it's galling to try and convince my better half that life in Ireland isn't for me it's surprising that it takes any convincing and that's until I discuss the benefits of Denmark or Sweden to her. (Denmark for my MSc is the destination of choice whereas she has a grá for Sweden).

    The mad thing is that I'm moving abroad to study Urban and Transportation planning. Great eh?

    Until politics is totally removed from our planning system then nothing of note will happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    The fact that people (and the govt) need to be convinced of the benefits of DU show how utterly unlikely it is that this will be built.

    The cost benefit of it to the WHOLE ISLAND must be off the charts.

    When even posters on here talk about how we haven't gotten a handle on the cost of living or housing but don't connect that to rubbish transportation infrastructure then you know we have a problem.

    Everything in Ireland is taken in isolation. Nothing is joined up and the benefits and the failures of everything are looked at singularly.

    When arguments against DU include "the residents of East Wall will have to endure the drilling and they won't even get a new station" then you know you're screwed.

    Tbh, I'm tired of the whole thing. I'm not raising my family here and whilst it's galling to try and convince my better half that life in Ireland isn't for me it's surprising that it takes any convincing and that's until I discuss the benefits of Denmark or Sweden to her. (Denmark for my MSc is the destination of choice whereas she has a grá for Sweden).

    The mad thing is that I'm moving abroad to study Urban and Transportation planning. Great eh?

    Until politics is totally removed from our planning system then nothing of note will happen.

    I'm totally in support of DartU but can you elaborate on this? What benefit will it be to me for example, living in Limerick?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,188 ✭✭✭ lucernarian


    Two off the top of my head would be to signifantly improve IR revenue so that it can stand on its own two feet more (and reduce excuses for running the remaining rural trackage into the ground, or the PSO subvention). The other would be that it significantly helps people entering Dublin on intercity trains to access other trains going to other part of the country.

    It has the capability to support Cork to Belfast trains but that probably won't happen.

    A third one would be to support the move away from diesel pollution and reduce carbon consumption, and help meet our targets as a country.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    pigtown wrote: »
    I'm totally in support of DartU but can you elaborate on this? What benefit will it be to me for example, living in Limerick?
    You can get the train to Dublin and not half to get off well outside the city centre, for example you could get the DART to Stephens Green and the Metro to the airport, and not have to drive to Dublin and spend hours in traffic.

    Limerick needs it's own solutions too, but these are different and unique to Limerick (e.g. PT for the University etc)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    That's great and all but could I then make the same claim for a cross city tram in LImerick city? In that people won't have to walk from the train station to the cit centre?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭ strassenwo!f


    This whole thread had to be cleared with the moderators before it could be introduced to the board.

    Yet this current discussion about this major transport project for Dublin (and the country as a whole) has now developed into a situation where a moderator of this very board is presenting his/her views on Limerick's transport on this thread, in a post with no reference to Dublin's transport or the project in the thread title.

    After just over two pages.

    W, lads, TF?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    This whole thread had to be cleared with the moderators before it could be introduced to the board.

    Yet this current discussion about this major transport project for Dublin (and the country as a whole) has now developed into a situation where a moderator of this very board is presenting his/her views on Limerick's transport on this thread, in a post with no reference to Dublin's transport or the project in the thread title.

    After just over two pages.

    W, lads, TF?
    Apologies, I didn't even check the title of the thread before replying. Post deleted.

    Back to DART Underground.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    I'm a he, and what did I miss?

    Again Strassenwolf you describe the project as major for the country as a whole but I'm not convinced this is the case. Exactly how will it benefit people outside of Dublin?


  • Registered Users Posts: 856 mickoneill31


    pigtown wrote: »
    I'm a he, and what did I miss?

    Again Strassenwolf you describe the project as major for the country as a whole but I'm not convinced this is the case. Exactly how will it benefit people outside of Dublin?

    Absolutely non scientific or backed up by any evidence but I know companies look at infrastructure as one criteria of where they're looking to set up offices. Can they set up in areas that their staff can get to easily or is the transport system a mess.

    Dublin is creaking at the seams I think for transport at the moment, and we're trying to attract companies to relocate here once Brexit happens. We don't seem to have office spaces in Dublin city and our major ring road is a car part for a significant portion of the time.

    Obviously Transport is only one area any company will look at when looking to set up in Ireland so it's not a make or break decision but for me as an employee I left my last company because I was fed up of the M50. Multiply that by a few thousand and companies start to pay attention.

    Like it or not many companies don't even look outside Dublin when considering Ireland (I was involved in a project years ago for a major company) so if they discount Dublin because of transport then the whole country loses (a few hundred jobs, a few million in taxes etc. etc.).

    With that said it's not specific to Dart Undergound or any one project. DU is just one small piece in a chain that many other cities I've been in, seem to have figured out. If we get Dart Underground I'm sure we'll have to discuss for several more years for the next minor upgrade to infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭ pigtown


    So essentially it's what's good for Dublin is good for the country? I agree that's true, and I don't really want to derail the thread but can't you make that claim about anything that's built is of benefit to the whole country, as it will generate additional tax income that will go to central government.

    Again, I'm totally supportive of DartU but I don't think you're going to get widespread support for it (if that's what you're want) by claiming it's going to benefit everyone when it's not.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,116 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell


    Why was it OK to build the Port Tunnel, which has benefited Dublin hugely by taking the HGVs out of the city centre, but it is not OK to build the DU or MN which would remove a large number of cars from the city centre?

    DU will provide a rapid way of traversing the quays for public transport users that is not provided by buses or trams.

    If the Clongriffin-Airport spur is built in conjunction, it will allow rapid transfer to CC.

    No brainer really - but how do you persuade those with no brains?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭ Sleeper12


    It will be built & OP I'm optimistic that you'll live well into your 80s. So I do believe we'll see it in our lifetime. However between Trump, Britex & every union demanding celtic Tiger wages for workers I don't think we'll see it in the short term. :(


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