2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

daithi7 · 12-11-2016 02:03AM

RobertKK wrote: »

John Podesta is blaming Comey and the media for Hillary's lossr.

Frankly Comey and the FBI are coming out of this election really, really badly imho.

Fine, opening an investigation (based on info leaked by the KGB mind) into the email server, and then concluding that there was nothing untoward here, I don't have an issue with that. And to be clear, if they decided there was something untoward there and they substantiated that, I wouldn't have any issue with that either. But to then reopen the investigation in the middle of an election in response to more KGB supplied info is just plain nuts. Of course they should have kept a 'watching brief', but been smart enough to realise that at best they were now being played by the Putin& the KGB, or at worst, being played by a conspiracy between Putin, the KGB and the now president elect of the USA! YIKES!!!

And the subsequent reopening of the investigation led to another finding of nothing untoward going on from HRC after all. No surprise there then!

I find this shocking tbh. The now president elect of the USA, now owes a huge favour to Russia& the KGB, (as they won him his election), he has already publicly thanked them (Russia, Putin & by extension the KGB) for their very effective espionage of the democratic parties'( Sanders ) affair during the campaign, and he has also publicly praised Putin, who is probably the USA's most powerful enemy. This fiasco has all sorts of really nasty potential results. World watch out!!!

And back to the FBI & Comer, frankly I don't see how his position is now tenable. He should be gone, cos at best he has been played like a fool, or worse, there may be something even more sinister going on with him. Also the whole role and adherence to protocol by the FBI in this fiasco should be subject to intense scrutiny imho. I mean most rightfully recoil from police/military states like Russia, Syria & North Korea say, so the last thing most free world lovers want is for the USA to even flirt with going down that very dark & murky road imho.

FISMA. · 12-11-2016 02:23AM

Brexit - Goodbye EU

Brexit 2.0 - Hello Trump.

Brexit 3.0 - Auf Wiedersehen Frau Merkel!

alastair · 12-11-2016 02:37AM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm curious: was he "telling it like it is" when he promised to completely repeal the ACA on his first day in office, or when he decided that he'd keep it after all?

For someone who tells it like it is, he seems awfully vague on what "it" is.

Prepare for an avalanche of pivots.

K-9 · 12-11-2016 04:00AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The Grubhub CEO had to backtrack after a backlash for the email saying his original email was misconstrued, but he had associated voting for Trump as hate politics.
He only backtracked as #BoycottGrubhub was trending on twitter.

So like Trump back tracking on his comments about the protestors.

Brian? · 12-11-2016 04:04AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not legitimate as in 'has no moral value', but as in 'the question is based on a questionably inappropriate perspective.' Asking the question "how democratic is it" implies to me that the standard is supposed to be a democracy to begin with. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say it's a democracy or intended to be one. No historian or political scientist has ever defined it as a democracy, but is a federated representative republic. If the founders of the country wanted a single-body democracy, they'd have made one. The question is really attacking the nature of the country itself, not the electoral process.

You're almost correct. I wasn't attacking the nature of the country though. I was questioning whether the current system is fit for purpose. Is it a system that's democratic enough. I don't think it is, even as a federated Republic the system could be tweeted to better represent minority opnion. Bit that's just my opinion

Jawgap · 12-11-2016 07:10AM

RobertKK wrote: »

He said after talking to Obama that he wants to keep the law that people with pre-existing conditions are not excluded from health insurance and that children can remain on their parents plans until age 26.

If that is the reason, then it shows what a bloody good negotiator Obama is......30 minutes of talks and that was enough to get Trump to backslide on what was a fairly key plank of his platform.

Manic Moran · 12-11-2016 07:57AM

daithi7 wrote: »

RobertKK wrote: »

John Podesta is blaming Comey and the media for Hillary's lossr.

Frankly Comey and the FBI are coming out of this election really, really badly imho.

Fine, opening an investigation (based on info leaked by the KGB mind) into the email server, and then concluding that there was nothing untoward here, I don't have an issue with that. And to be clear, if they decided there was something untoward there and they substantiated that, I wouldn't have any issue with that either. But to then reopen the investigation in the middle of an election in response to more KGB supplied info is just plain nuts. Of course they should have kept a 'watching brief', but been smart enough to realise that at best they were now being played by the Putin& the KGB, or at worst, being played by a conspiracy between Putin, the KGB and the now president elect of the USA! YIKES!!!

And the subsequent reopening of the investigation led to another finding of nothing untoward going on from HRC after all. No surprise there then!

I find this shocking tbh. The now president elect of the USA, now owes a huge favour to Russia& the KGB, (as they won him his election), he has already publicly thanked them (Russia, Putin & by extension the KGB) for their very effective espionage of the democratic parties'( Sanders ) affair during the campaign, and he has also publicly praised Putin, who is probably the USA's most powerful enemy. This fiasco has all sorts of really nasty potential results. World watch out!!!

And back to the FBI & Comer, frankly I don't see how his position is now tenable. He should be gone, cos at best he has been played like a fool, or worse, there may be something even more sinister going on with him. Also the whole role and adherence to protocol by the FBI in this fiasco should be subject to intense scrutiny imho. I mean most rightfully recoil from police/military states like Russia, Syria & North Korea say, so the last thing most free world lovers want is for the USA to even flirt with going down that very dark & murky road imho.

I really don't see how Comey had a choice.
The man had gone in front of Congress, and told them "OK, we're shutting down the investigation, we think she was careless, but don't believe there's anything to merit a criminal prosecution." That situation changed with the Wiener investigation. What he had told Congress, and the public at large, was no longer true. He had two choices: Sit on the information, or be open about it. It's a rare time that a government body is lambasted for transparency.

gosplan · 12-11-2016 08:08AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I really don't see how Comey had a choice.
The man had gone in front of Congress, and told them "OK, we're shutting down the investigation, we think she was careless, but don't believe there's anything to merit a criminal prosecution." That situation changed with the Wiener investigation. What he had told Congress, and the public at large, was no longer true. He had two choices: Sit on the information, or be open about it. It's a rare time that a government body is lambasted for transparency.

Or he could have just looked through them first. Given it only took a few days anyway.

Manic Moran · 12-11-2016 08:31AM

gosplan wrote: »

Manic Moran wrote: »

I really don't see how Comey had a choice.
The man had gone in front of Congress, and told them "OK, we're shutting down the investigation, we think she was careless, but don't believe there's anything to merit a criminal prosecution." That situation changed with the Wiener investigation. What he had told Congress, and the public at large, was no longer true. He had two choices: Sit on the information, or be open about it. It's a rare time that a government body is lambasted for transparency.

Or he could have just looked through them first. Given it only took a few days anyway.

Knowledge available with hindsight. The initial information was that they would not be able to have it completed until after the election.

gosplan · 12-11-2016 08:35AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Knowledge available with hindsight. The initial information was that they would not be able to have it completed until after the election.

Well then he interfered in an election without doing the necessary checking first.

I mean they got it done no problem.

He really really should have had more foresight before dropping a bomb into the last two weeks of the election.

But he only comes out of it looking bad if you're objective or a democrat.

Suryavarman · 12-11-2016 10:00AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Knowledge available with hindsight. The initial information was that they would not be able to have it completed until after the election.

There really wasn't any reason to believe the Wiener emails would throw up anything new anyway. Most of the emails would just have been duplicates of what they had already seen when first investigating Clinton.

Akrasia · 12-11-2016 10:07AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The sun is the main heater of the planet which in turn affects the climate. Humans are causing effects which are above what the sun does.
Put it this way, which has a bigger effect on the climate of Earth- the sun dies and becomes a white dwarf, or if humans go the way of the dinosaurs?

Are you going to say humans have a bigger effect than the sun?

Do you actually find this argument convincing?

There are lots of different factors that affect global climate. It's a dynamic system that was in relative balance (it cycles between hotter and colder periods, but over tens of thousands of years)

Humans have altered the balance by changing the atmospheric composition so that less heat is radiated out of the planet.

You're argument is no different to saying that turning on the heating system is what heats the house, so it makes no difference if we leave all the windows and doors open, because without the heating on, it'll be cold anyway.

That's clearly a terrible argument. The sun is delivering a steady and constant amount of energy to the earth. The temperature of the earth is just as dependent on the earths capacity to retain that heat, as it is on the sun's capacity to deliver it to us.

Akrasia · 12-11-2016 10:11AM

Jawgap wrote: »

If that is the reason, then it shows what a bloody good negotiator Obama is......30 minutes of talks and that was enough to get Trump to backslide on what was a fairly key plank of his platform.

It also shows that Trump hadn't put any thought at all into what he would replace obamacare with if he hadn't thought about the needs of people with preexisting conditions or children still in education.

Akrasia · 12-11-2016 10:15AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I really don't see how Comey had a choice.
The man had gone in front of Congress, and told them "OK, we're shutting down the investigation, we think she was careless, but don't believe there's anything to merit a criminal prosecution." That situation changed with the Wiener investigation. What he had told Congress, and the public at large, was no longer true. He had two choices: Sit on the information, or be open about it. It's a rare time that a government body is lambasted for transparency.

nothing changed with the weiner investigation. The FBI didn't even have a warrant to read those emails when he sent that mail to congress. All he had was a suspicion that there may be some evidence, but he goes and throws a feckin hand grenade into the election and almost certainly caused enough of a shift to hand the election to Trump

Comey will go down in history as the Franz Ferdinand of the 21st century. A relatively small character that somehow caused a global catastrophe

Skylinehead · 12-11-2016 11:49AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The sun is the main heater of the planet which in turn affects the climate. Humans are causing effects which are above what the sun does.
Put it this way, which has a bigger effect on the climate of Earth- the sun dies and becomes a white dwarf, or if humans go the way of the dinosaurs?

Are you going to say humans have a bigger effect than the sun?

Where's the proof that the sun is having a bigger effect on climate change (note change) than humans? And I'm not talking five billion years from now, obviously.

TheOven · 12-11-2016 12:13PM

RobertKK wrote: »

The sun is the main heater of the planet which in turn affects the climate. Humans are causing effects which are above what the sun does.
Put it this way, which has a bigger effect on the climate of Earth- the sun dies and becomes a white dwarf, or if humans go the way of the dinosaurs?

Are you going to say humans have a bigger effect than the sun?

Oh...the sun?

Nobody thought to include the sun in their models! Thanks, your PhD is in the post for this discovery. The planet is saved thanks to dr Robert.

RobertKK · 12-11-2016 12:49PM

Jawgap wrote: »

If that is the reason, then it shows what a bloody good negotiator Obama is......30 minutes of talks and that was enough to get Trump to backslide on what was a fairly key plank of his platform.

Since the election is over he has also been full of praise for the Clinton's and Obama.
I don't think it is a case of Obama being a good negotiator as much as Trump being so flexible with his positions. I think Trump did what we are use to with politicians, as Pat Rabbitte said you say stuff in election campaigns to get elected.
Now he doesn't have to worry about votes he can be flexible, keep some, change other areas.

RobertKK · 12-11-2016 01:01PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'll ask again: can you link to the scientific consensus that the sun is affecting the global climate more than human activity is?

Akrasia wrote: »

Do you actually find this argument convincing?

There are lots of different factors that affect global climate. It's a dynamic system that was in relative balance (it cycles between hotter and colder periods, but over tens of thousands of years)

Humans have altered the balance by changing the atmospheric composition so that less heat is radiated out of the planet.

You're argument is no different to saying that turning on the heating system is what heats the house, so it makes no difference if we leave all the windows and doors open, because without the heating on, it'll be cold anyway.

That's clearly a terrible argument. The sun is delivering a steady and constant amount of energy to the earth. The temperature of the earth is just as dependent on the earths capacity to retain that heat, as it is on the sun's capacity to deliver it to us.

Skylinehead wrote: »

Where's the proof that the sun is having a bigger effect on climate change (note change) than humans? And I'm not talking five billion years from now, obviously.

TheOven wrote: »

Oh...the sun?

Nobody thought to include the sun in their models! Thanks, your PhD is in the post for this discovery. The planet is saved thanks to dr Robert.

I was asked if the sun was affecting the climate more than humans. The scientific fact is the sun is the driver of the climate on earth.
The question did not include man made climate change, which would be above what the sun does, but the sun is the single biggest effect on the Earth and the climate.
The question asked is the sun affecting global climate more than humans?
The answer is yes, the question was not - are humans affecting the climate above what the sun does? Where the answer would also be yes.

Fr Tod Umptious · 12-11-2016 01:06PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Since the election is over he has also been full of praise for the Clinton's and Obama.
I don't think it is a case of Obama being a good negotiator as much as Trump being so flexible with his positions. I think Trump did what we are use to with politicians, as Pat Rabbitte said you say stuff in election campaigns to get elected.
Now he doesn't have to worry about votes he can be flexible, keep some, change other areas.

And I for one am not surprised.
Trump is no clown and knows how to negotiate, and knows that he will have to negotiate, and home and abroad.

But what's interesting and not surprising is that the other side are still going on about things he said in his campaign, moths ago, and using them as the yard stick, while ignoring the last few days news.

Skylinehead · 12-11-2016 01:10PM

RobertKK wrote: »

I was asked if the sun was affecting the climate more than humans. The scientific fact is the sun is the driver of the climate on earth.
The question did not include man made climate change, which would be above what the sun does, but the sun is the single biggest effect on the Earth and the climate.
The question asked is the sun affecting global climate more than humans?
The answer is yes, the question was not - are humans affecting the climate above what the sun does? Where the answer would also be yes.

The sun is a constant. I have no idea why you went off on a tangent about what affects the climate as a whole, when obviously the subject is about climate change.

daithi7 · 12-11-2016 01:15PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

The sun is a constant. I have no idea why you went off on a tangent about what affects the climate as a whole, when obviously the subject is about climate change.

Are you really sure of that?

Have you heard of sunspots??

RobertKK · 12-11-2016 01:18PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And I for one am not surprised.
Trump is no clown and knows how to negotiate, and knows that he will have to negotiate, and home and abroad.

But what's interesting and not surprising is that the other side are still going on about things he said in his campaign, moths ago, and using them as the yard stick, while ignoring the last few days news.

Yeah we will never hear him say Crooked Hillary Clinton again.
Like we haven't heard of lying Ted Cruz, little Marco or low energy Jeb Bush. He put slogans on people he saw as a threat. Then when no longer a threat, he isn't there holding a grudge and continuing the name calling.

With the country split it gives him an opportunity to be more flexible. We have to wait and see, but so far he has appeared as a person who is open to other people, as he showed with the discussions he had with Obama.
As he said about the Clinton's where he would not rule out seeking counsel from them. He doesn't seem to be open to cut off his nose despite his face.

RobertKK · 12-11-2016 01:27PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

The sun is a constant. I have no idea why you went off on a tangent about what affects the climate as a whole, when obviously the subject is about climate change.

I answered the question correctly. I was not asked if human behaviour caused effects above what the sun does. I was asked if the sun has bigger effects on the climate of Earth than humans.
Totally different questions.

I will ask you, which would have a bigger effect on the climate?
The sun dies and becomes a white dwarf?
Humans go extinct like the dinosaurs?

I was asked to prove the sun has a bigger impact on the climate than humans. nothing more, nothing less.

Billy86 · 12-11-2016 01:27PM

RobertKK wrote: »

As he said about the Clinton's where he would not rule out seeking counsel from them. He doesn't seem to be open to cut off his nose despite his face.

Safe to assume you're extremely unhappy with that? After all, if I recall your claim throughout the election was that you weren't mad on Trump but the number one thing you wanted to was the Clinton as far away from power or the white house as humanly possible.

RobertKK · 12-11-2016 01:32PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Safe to assume you're extremely unhappy with that? After all, if I recall your claim throughout the election was that you weren't mad on Trump but the number one thing you wanted to was the Clinton as far away from power or the white house as humanly possible.

No, as I don't think he will be asking her about invading countries. He is not stupid to not see how disastrous that policy that Hillary always went for has been.
He has also not ruled out seeking counsel from Obama, who angered Hillary over not attacking Syria when the so called red line was deemed to have been breached.

Trump is new to the job, he knows now is the time to be conciliatory, you don't want to be making things harder than they need to be.
What he is doing is basic common sense.

daithi7 · 12-11-2016 01:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Yeah we will never hear him say Crooked Hillary Clinton again.
Like we haven't heard of lying Ted Cruz, little Marco or low energy Jeb Bush. He put slogans on people he saw as a threat. Then when no longer a threat, he isn't there holding a grudge and continuing the name calling.

With the country split it gives him an opportunity to be more flexible. We have to wait and see, but so far he has appeared as a person who is open to other people, as he showed with the discussions he had with Obama.
As he said about the Clinton's where he would not rule out seeking counsel from them. He doesn't seem to be open to cut off his nose despite his face.

To be fair, I think there is a fair bit of truth in that. Also you've gotta remember this guy is really a long time Democratic party supporter, who just switched to the Republican party relatively recently. So at heart, (if he really has one

) , he's a politician from the American centre/centre right really.

One of my major concerns about the Trump administration though, is that he has appealed to very dark forces and elements in America (& elsewhere I.e. Russia/Putin/Kgb) ito get elected, and he has energised these nasties to feel they now have a genuine stake in the running of the US and hence the free world, as we know it. So he has done deals with all sorts of devils, as it were. They're now gonna be looking for payback, and I fear we're gonna see that in isolationist, nationalistic, divisive policies, funded by hugely unsustainable debt, several unnecessary wars, a globe dominated by fear, (remember Rumsfeld, Cheney & the 'axis of evil' ?) ,ultimately leading to another massive crash and outright depression in The USA and hence, the western world.

I accept this view may be slightly pessimistic and the reality may not turn out to be quite as apocalyptic, but I don't see this ending well at all.

P.s. on a more positive note we still live in a great little country, that is young, outgoing, liberal and safe , and thankfully we are not too directly influenced by the NRA, Kkk or even Putin& The Kgb,. Thank heaven for large mercies!! :-)

Jawgap · 12-11-2016 01:43PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Since the election is over he has also been full of praise for the Clinton's and Obama.
I don't think it is a case of Obama being a good negotiator as much as Trump being so flexible with his positions. I think Trump did what we are use to with politicians, as Pat Rabbitte said you say stuff in election campaigns to get elected.
Now he doesn't have to worry about votes he can be flexible, keep some, change other areas.

Hang on, gutting the the ACA was a significant, even core, part of what drove people to vote for him......and even before he's had a chance to look at the books, he's already backsliding on it?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a welcome reversal of his position but I also think it's shaping up to be a good example of how he is going to hugely disappoint people!

It's easy being a hurler on the ditch (which is effectively what we're all doing on this thread) quite another matter to be on the pitch.

I think one of the JFK's favourite quotes will now be resonating with Trump.....

Bullfight critics, ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous plaza full.
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull

.....it's a lot easier to be a critic than a matador

Jawgap · 12-11-2016 01:49PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And I for one am not surprised.
Trump is no clown and knows how to negotiate, and knows that he will have to negotiate, and home and abroad.

But what's interesting and not surprising is that the other side are still going on about things he said in his campaign, moths ago, and using them as the yard stick, while ignoring the last few days news.

where is the evidence for that?

He is a fantastic self-promoter, but his business success is mediocre at best.....do you think someone who over-borrows to the point of bankruptcy 6 times is a good business person?

FatherTed · 12-11-2016 01:54PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No, as I don't think he will be asking her about invading countries. He is not stupid to not see how disastrous that policy that Hillary always went for has been.
He has also not ruled out seeking counsel from Obama, who angered Hillary over not attacking Syria when the so called red line was deemed to have been breached.

Trump is new to the job, he knows now is the time to be conciliatory, you don't want to be making things harder than they need to be.
What he is doing is basic common sense.

Yes Politicians do that, amazing. The say one thing to get elected and once elected backtrack. But Trump supporters have been telling us they voted for him because he's not like the other establishment politicians. So what makes him different to any other politician now if he's keeping fundamental parts of Obamacare, if the Wall was just a symbol, not locking up Clinton etc?

daithi7 · 12-11-2016 01:57PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Hang on, gutting the the ACA was a significant, even core, part of what drove people to vote for him......and even before he's had a chance to look at the books, he's already backsliding on it?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a welcome reversal of his position but I also think it's shaping up to be a good example of how he is going to hugely disappoint people!

It's easy being a hurler on the ditch (which is effectively what we're all doing on this thread) quite another matter to be on the pitch.

I think one of the JFK's favourite quotes will now be resonating with Trump.....

Bullfight critics, ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous plaza full.
But only one is there who knows,
And he’s the man who fights the bull

.....it's a lot easier to be a critic than a matador

Love it, yes indeed. And my own pet theory on this is that Trump didn't expect to get elected at all, in fact he had actually himself nicely set up to launch a right wing tv channel like Fox say, which would have far more suited his skill set imho, and he could have a fortune being that big, loud attention seeking hurler the ditch.

Now that he actually won, he is like a rabbit caught in the headlights. The full responsibilities of trying to run the western world are now dawning on him, his family and all of those around him.....

Most business people and especially owners, generally find the tedium of politics overwhelming, frustrating and very unfulfilling. That may well be Trump's fate, I just wish he had' practiced ' first, by becoming a mayor or senator, before trying to learn the skills & art of politics in the biggest bloody political job on the planet!! YIKES!!!

P.s. I also hope he doesn't get the keys of his Twitter machine mixed up with the code entering device of nuclear Armageddon, when he's having one of his rant fests with some unhappy ex beauty pageant contestant at 3 AM some morning

)) funny, but frightening all the same

2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

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