Louise O Neill on rape culture.

05eaftqbrs9jlh · 11-11-2016 10:12PM

osmiumartist wrote:

The bit where I said I was pro-choice. Is that too vague for your liking?

Aside from all your other posts saying abortion (after six weeks) is wrong. You gave the opposing opinion to being pro-choice in every other post except, conveniently, your last. I'll buy you a pair of flip flops.

Outlaw Pete wrote:

Aside from the fact that a developing human being is not a woman's body.... why the hell do people like you insist on framing abortion legislation as "men telling women" what to do?

Children were being systematically plundered by the religious institutes which had a stranglehold on society last time people voted. If the Catholic Church isn't patriarchal to you, I'm not sure I can ever come around to your way of thinking on this. Also I'm 26, so I didn't get the opportunity to vote then, along with basically all of the people this now applies to.

mzungu · 11-11-2016 10:18PM

demfad wrote: »

Here's a study from the US that compiles US cases. One counted cases where the perpetrator and victims survived and were interviewed in depth. Males were perpetrators in 95%. Another was a twelve city study of 408 domestic familial murder-suicides in the US, 91.4% were committed by men, and prior domestic violence had occurred in 70% of them. Children were also killed in 19% of these cases. Unpleasant reading. But real murders, real bodies, and no massaging of figures possible.

Nothing new there, I have looked at that David Adams study before. His study changes nothing as familicide is still under researched and poorly understood. Thankfully because of how rare it is. Plus, his study never dealt with any suspected causes of mental illness in any of those cases. Primarily because he is working off older studies/stats and it is not new research. For example, some studies in the area do not seem to be counting out depression* or other mental illnesses** as possible causes. These factors popped up in the studies on filicide earlier in the thread. So, as studies become more robust and we learn more about it, the bigger picture will emerge.

*Telles, Correa & Blank 2013 Familicide attempt: case report of a forensic psychiatric evaluation. 40 (3)

**Liem M, Koenraadti F. (2008) Familicide: a comparison with spousal and child homicide by mentally disordered perpetrators. Crim Behav Ment Health. 18: 306-18.

demfad wrote: »

No, that was when I asked you if once off slapping or name calling was counted as domestic violence in your study which you still tellingly have not being able to answer. I take it that they are which means your study is not measuring what it claims it is measuring.

Just to be clear, you never asked me anything about it. So, there is nothing telling there at all.

You made this statement:

demfad wrote:

If a person hits another person that does not equate to domestic violence.

...then I posted the study which was titled “National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey”. It also stated that it dealt with lifetime reports of rape, physical violence and stalking. If you had read what I had posted originally, you would have seen that.

Regarding the question you just asked now, the study does not state that it features instances of “slapping” or "name calling" in relationships in the methodology, but it does mention that it omitted things like threatening to walk out of a relationship.

Anyways, the figures are that 13.1% have been raped, this equates to 1 in 8. Then the study moves to the category of other sexual violence, and reports that 32.3% have experienced unwanted sexual contact (unwanted kissing in a sexual way, fondling or grabbing sexual body parts.) and 37.8% reported non-contact unwanted sexual experiences (exposing sexual body parts, being made to look at or participate in sexual photos or movies, harassed in  a public place in a way that felt unsafe).

I think we can agree, that the above are examples of very serious forms of mental, physical and sexual abuse within a relationship. These do happen throughout all relationships, however, higher instances overall can be found within lesbian relationships.

You believe "male entitlement" is behind gender based violence. So, this brings us back to square A and once again to the question of how can gender roles and "male entitlement" explain these high instances of mental, physical and sexual abuse in lesbian relationships?

FortySeven · 11-11-2016 10:23PM

When did this get merged with the abortion thread? Must have missed it.

Wibbs · 11-11-2016 10:30PM

mzungu wrote: »

You believe "male entitlement" is behind gender based violence. So, this brings us back to square A and once again to the question of how can gender roles and "male entitlement" explain these high instances of mental, physical and sexual abuse in lesbian relationships?

Demfad's reply: "It was the men, even when it was the women, it was the men. Annihilation!". AKA my usual aforementioned "feminist" BS filter

osmiumartist · 11-11-2016 11:12PM

Zain Fluffy Tourist wrote: »

Aside from all your other posts saying abortion (after six weeks) is wrong. You gave the opposing opinion to being pro-choice in every other post except, conveniently, your last. I'll buy you a pair of flip flops.

Here's your chance to rub my face in it by quoting any of my supposed "pro-life" pronouncements for all to see. Off you go now. Don't take too long.

Edit... that'd be a no then. Wonder if you have the decency to admit you were wrong either? Nah, no way.

Pseudorandom · 11-11-2016 11:26PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

The findings of the Savita inquiry actually said the laws as they were meant the foetus should have been removed. There was no need to change anything.
If you want to go the legal route for responsibility, any mother can give up a baby at any time. Nobody is forced to look after anybody who can be looked after elsewhere.
All off topic anyway.

Hang on, I don't think that's quite true. My understanding was that the constitution would have allowed for the foetus being removed, but there had been no legislation made around the constitution. So the doctors were handicapped by the fact that there was no actual laws either way, only the constitutional amendment. So it would have been up to the doctors at the time to try and guess how exactly the amendment would work out legally and they went the most legally safe way for them.

The Rape of Lucretia · 12-11-2016 12:04AM

Soooo, anyhoosale, back to rape culture, its promotion, awareness raising, and generally bringing it to the attention to those who may have not been even aware that such a phrase existed, the supreme court clarified the legalities of rape today, and what you can and cannot do :

https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1111/830984-court-rape/

me_right_one · 12-11-2016 12:51AM

Zain Fluffy Tourist wrote: »

Also what are you supposed to say to your family/colleagues/anyone who comments on your pregnancy if you've been raped? Women aren't incubators. Do you seriously think all potential babies would be better off born, ...

Zain Fluffy Tourist wrote: »

I'm not a feminist, I just want people to get their basic human rights.

What the actual fcuk???

mzungu · 12-11-2016 01:35AM

demfad wrote: »

Just to address this. I would see the issue being more with investigation in the first instance.
There was a scathing report released about the Gardai in late 2014. The report was particularly scathing on attitudes, recording and investigation of domestic incidents. Here's an Irish Times report. You are not going to get convictions if you are not even recording assaults as crimes. The attitude of the gardai here reflects the wider cultural attitude towards domestic violence. A culture where domestic violence is more likely to occur and more likely to be tolerated.

Definitely not. There are many areas that An Garda Síochána can improve on. But, it is not like they just ignore domestic violence and focus on everything else. That link shows a lot of areas need improving, and not just domestic violence. So, there is no evidence that they are tolerating it, or that they have a culture of not taking such issues seriously. You are neglecting to take into consideration the complexities involved when they arrive at the door. Plus, lets not forget that when AGS put themselves on the frontline in domestic callouts, they can, and do, get injured in the process. They take these cases, like all others, seriously. So, it is unfair of you to suggest that they have a culture of apathy towards the issue.

demfad wrote:

That goes soem way towards explaining why in almost 30 years of it being illegal to rape your spouse there has been only one successful conviction.

The lack of convictions points to the standards of proof involved. It is because it is such a serious crime, that we have these standards in place. Do you wish to see these standards lowered in order to try secure more convictions?

FortySeven · 12-11-2016 02:01AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Soooo, anyhoosale, back to rape culture, its promotion, awareness raising, and generally bringing it to the attention to those who may have not been even aware that such a phrase existed, the supreme court clarified the legalities of rape today, and what you can and cannot do :

https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1111/830984-court-rape/

Seems clear and fair enough to me.

Outlaw Pete · 12-11-2016 05:48AM

Zain Fluffy Tourist wrote: »

Children were being systematically plundered by the religious institutes which had a stranglehold on society last time people voted. If the Catholic Church isn't patriarchal to you, I'm not sure I can ever come around to your way of thinking on this.

What you point not does not negate the fact that women counted for half the votes cast. Abortion is a human rights issue and many people opposed to the availability of it (to one degree or another) are atheists (including my good self) and so the notion that there are 'rosaries on your ovaries' is largely a false one, as people would be against the killing of developing human beings in the womb even if it were shown tomorrow that there unequivocally is no God.

Also I'm 26, so I didn't get the opportunity to vote then, along with basically all of the people this now applies to.

Where abortion legal here none of you would give a fcuk about any future generations not having the chance to oppose abortion legality down the line and you know well you wouldn't and so don't give me that sanctimonious crap. You want it legal, fine, own that and stop hiding behind 'but we never had a say' nonsense as there are lots of laws we have to abide by that we as a society never had a say about. In fifteen years the next generation won't have had say about gay marriage, should we fire up another referendum on that?

Anyway, you'll get one, a couple of years but give the 'Men are telling women' what to do line a rest. They aren't. Irish society is telling you want to do and half of them are women.

Zulu · 12-11-2016 08:44AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Irish society is telling you want to do and half of them are women.

But but but, patriarchy

Anita Blow · 12-11-2016 09:44AM

I'm pro-choice but the Repeal campaign has somewhat been hijacked by feminists keen to frame it as a gender war, which is just one of the barriers they've thrown up in an attempt to seemingly not get this referendum passed. When I open the paper, who has a column against abortion? Breda O'Brien, a women. When I throw on the radio and there's a discussion about abortion, who do that have on the pro-life side? Cora Sherlock, a women. When I stick on Clare Byrne Live and they're asking the audience for a response, who did they have? 2 men saying they support it (ironically one guy also suggesting he has felt turned off by the official repeal campaign) and about 3 women all speaking about how they had the option of abortion but chose to keep it and are against abortion.
All this shows is how this gender divide feminists seem to want does not exist in reality and the more they try to force it, the more people turn against them thus feeding their persecution complex

gizmo555 · 12-11-2016 09:44AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Anyway, you'll get one, a couple of years but give the 'Men are telling women' what to do line a rest. They aren't. Irish society is telling you want to do and half of them are women.

I recall a woman friend of mine who campaigned against the 8th Amendment describing how she was spat upon and physically attacked - by other women.

Anita Blow · 12-11-2016 09:45AM

I'm pro-choice but the Repeal campaign has somewhat been hijacked by feminists keen to frame it as a gender war, which is just one of the barriers they've thrown up in an attempt to seemingly not get this referendum passed. When I open the paper, who has a column against abortion? Breda O'Brien, a women. When I throw on the radio and there's a discussion about abortion, who do that have on the pro-life side? Cora Sherlock, a women. When I stick on Clare Byrne Live and they're asking the audience for a response, who did they have? 2 men saying they support it (ironically one guy also suggesting he has felt turned off by the official repeal campaign) and about 3 women all speaking about how they had the option of abortion but chose to keep it and are against abortion.
All this shows is how this gender divide feminists seem to want does not exist in reality and the more they try to force it, the more people turn against them thus feeding their persecution complex

suicide_circus · 12-11-2016 09:49AM

^^^^well said. They may subconsciously prefer abortion restrictions to remain as deep down inside they actually prefer being able to play the victim.

The Rape of Lucretia · 12-11-2016 09:50AM

"In a new book, Demonic Males, which Wrangham wrote with science writer Dale Peterson, he reveals how he found a glimmer of hope that humanity could reduce its violence and overcome its five-million-year rap sheet of murder and war. Wrangham bases his optimism on the discovery that bonobos create peaceful societies in which males and females share power--while the biologically similar chimpanzees live in patriarchal groups in which males regularly rape, beat, kill, and sometimes even drink the blood of their own kind.
Wrangham's theory is that human civilization would be more civilized if women seized more political power through elections and used it to counterbalance the male instinct to constantly define "enemies" and attack them. To make this advance, however, women must first abandon a tendency they share with female chimpanzees: to reward and select aggressive males as their mates. "The example of the bonobos reminds us that females and males can be equally important players in a society," says Wrangham. "And by giving us a model in which female action works in suppressing the excesses of male aggression, the bonobos show us that in democracies like our own, women's voices should be heard more than they are."
"More sex = less conflict. As the great primatologist, Frans de Waal put it, 'Chimps use violence to get sex, while bonobos use sex to avoid violence.' While chimps victimize each other in many ways—rape, murder, infanticide, warfare between groups—there's never been a single observed case of any of these forms of aggression among bonobos, who are much sexier than chimps. As James Prescott demonstrated in a meta-analysis of all available anthropological data, the connection between less restrictive sexuality and less conflict generally holds true for human societies as well. All the casual sex among bonobos is arguably a big part of what has made them among the smartest of all primates."

So really, women are to blame for rape culture:
- they dont elect enough women politicians despite having 50% of the votes
- they have sex with violent men to cash in on the rewards that violence can bring
- they arent free enough to have sex often enough and with enough partners for everybody to calm down and just enjoy it

Its in your hands to resolve ladies.

conorhal · 12-11-2016 10:08AM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

"In a new book, Demonic Males, which Wrangham wrote with science writer Dale Peterson, he reveals how he found a glimmer of hope that humanity could reduce its violence and overcome its five-million-year rap sheet of murder and war. Wrangham bases his optimism on the discovery that bonobos create peaceful societies in which males and females share power--while the biologically similar chimpanzees live in patriarchal groups in which males regularly rape, beat, kill, and sometimes even drink the blood of their own kind.
Wrangham's theory is that human civilization would be more civilized if women seized more political power through elections and used it to counterbalance the male instinct to constantly define "enemies" and attack them. To make this advance, however, women must first abandon a tendency they share with female chimpanzees: to reward and select aggressive males as their mates. "The example of the bonobos reminds us that females and males can be equally important players in a society," says Wrangham. "And by giving us a model in which female action works in suppressing the excesses of male aggression, the bonobos show us that in democracies like our own, women's voices should be heard more than they are."
"More sex = less conflict. As the great primatologist, Frans de Waal put it, 'Chimps use violence to get sex, while bonobos use sex to avoid violence.' While chimps victimize each other in many ways—rape, murder, infanticide, warfare between groups—there's never been a single observed case of any of these forms of aggression among bonobos, who are much sexier than chimps. As James Prescott demonstrated in a meta-analysis of all available anthropological data, the connection between less restrictive sexuality and less conflict generally holds true for human societies as well. All the casual sex among bonobos is arguably a big part of what has made them among the smartest of all primates."

So really, women are to blame for rape culture:
- they dont elect enough women politicians despite having 50% of the votes
- they have sex with violent men to cash in on the rewards that violence can bring
- they arent free enough to have sex often enough and with enough partners for everybody to calm down and just enjoy it

Its in your hands to resolve ladies.

I always smirk at Celine's jaundiced barb in 'Before Sunrise' when she cynically ponders if 'feminism wasn't invented by men, 'free your minds! Free your bodies!.... just so long as I can ***k more.....' :pac:

The Rape of Lucretia · 12-11-2016 10:32AM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/my-outfit-is-not-an-invitation-for-comment-or-for-assault-women-are-never-asking-for-it-430279.html

What a bizarre article. It really does look like she is just slipping out of it. And the prostitute look in another section of the documentary really does make it seem : she really was asking for the criticism and for the clothing choices to be noticed as incongruous with the point she was trying to make, or, she hasnt a clue about how to put a point across without a conflicting distraction built into the message, in which case it is just very poor judgement on her part.

suicide_circus · 12-11-2016 10:44AM

a shameless self promoter

Edit: she's cut from the same cloth as Katie Hopkins just with a different axe to grind.

The_Kew_Tour · 12-11-2016 10:54AM

ssshhh say nothing;)

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-women-can-be-sexist-too-10654049

midnight city · 12-11-2016 12:05PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

ssshhh say nothing;)

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-women-can-be-sexist-too-10654049

I thought for a second that we were going to get an admission of misandry. Ah well, maybe some day.

Wibbs · 12-11-2016 12:10PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

"Wrangham bases his optimism on the discovery that bonobos create peaceful societies in which males and females share power--while the biologically similar chimpanzees live in patriarchal groups in which males regularly rape, beat, kill, and sometimes even drink the blood of their own kind.

Ah yeah, the Bonobo theory. It's a load of tripe, with a fair chunk of 1960'70's free love(even gender politics) stuff on top. The other side to that coin was that the warring "killer ape" chimps were a better analogue to how we came so far(the latter reflected in the opening scenes of Kubricks 2001 A Space Odyssey). It turns out we humans are unlike either subspecies of chimp. We're far more diverse in our habits for a start. This is one big reason why both of the above camps could claim to have traction. You can find some cultures more like Bonobos and others more like common Chimps and yet others like neither.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

What a bizarre article. It really does look like she is just slipping out of it. And the prostitute look in another section of the documentary really does make it seem : she really was asking for the criticism and for the clothing choices to be noticed as incongruous with the point she was trying to make, or, she hasnt a clue about how to put a point across without a conflicting distraction built into the message, in which case it is just very poor judgement on her part.

While I can certainly suspect the self promotion angle, outside of that, what she wears or doesn't wear means jack.

midnight city · 12-11-2016 12:10PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/my-outfit-is-not-an-invitation-for-comment-or-for-assault-women-are-never-asking-for-it-430279.html

What a bizarre article. It really does look like she is just slipping out of it. And the prostitute look in another section of the documentary really does make it seem : she really was asking for the criticism and for the clothing choices to be noticed as incongruous with the point she was trying to make, or, she hasnt a clue about how to put a point across without a conflicting distraction built into the message, in which case it is just very poor judgement on her part.

It's really sad that her job is to write articles that put men in a bad light. Make no mistake about it. Her and her editor have agreed that her job is to write these inflammatory feminist articles. Most papers are doing the same.

py2006 · 12-11-2016 12:28PM

Louise's pal Una is of the same ilk. (not that it will come as news to some of you)

https://twitter.com/UnaMullally/status/796987873128026112

https://twitter.com/UnaMullally/status/796020244129181697

pookiesboo · 12-11-2016 12:33PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/my-outfit-is-not-an-invitation-for-comment-or-for-assault-women-are-never-asking-for-it-430279.html

What a bizarre article. It really does look like she is just slipping out of it. And the prostitute look in another section of the documentary really does make it seem : she really was asking for the criticism and for the clothing choices to be noticed as incongruous with the point she was trying to make, or, she hasnt a clue about how to put a point across without a conflicting distraction built into the message, in which case it is just very poor judgement on her part.

'#shouldergate'
Jesus wept

suicide_circus · 12-11-2016 01:43PM

pookiesboo wrote: »

'#shouldergate'
Jesus wept

Putting gate at the end of things is the calling card of the lazy and limited journalist

osmiumartist · 12-11-2016 01:53PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Putting gate at the end of things is the calling card of the lazy and limited journalist

#****journalistgate

Widdershins · 12-11-2016 02:17PM

Wibbs wrote: »

and as much of Irish Meeja proves the brain can still be inactive well into adulthood.

I was looking at a developmental poster belonging to my sister in law. I take it that's wrong?

12-11-2016 02:28PM

Jesus they're really still not getting it. The media is focusing on disenfranchised people, not just men.
To go a now half-empty cul-de-sac in the rust belt with for sale signs outside most of the houses, with people with families who can't make ends meet while neighbours are made redundant and the bank forecloses. Tell them that they don't have problems, some finger-clicker who takes issue with a letter a professor sends out has real problems.

I wouldn't have voted for Trump, I would've held my nose for Hillary. Which is easy for me to say. I was stunned to other night. At first I was at the usual "wtf? Idiots." Then I realised that understanding the fears of so many people is the start-point to addressing them.

Nah, keep sneering, tell them they're wrong and they've ruined everything. There's plenty who hated "having" to vote for Trump, a ton would've gone for Sanders because guess what, he recognised they had actual problems that needed addressing. But no, it was "her turn".

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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