El Presidente Trump

gandalf · 11-11-2016 12:39PM

jmayo wrote: »

Ok you are one of ones I commented about yesterday when I raised this.
Earlier you talked about upskilling, education, etc.

What is someone that hasn't the highest IQ or isn't naturally dispensed towards formal education meant to do ?

Lets be honest a huge chunk of people aren't suited to academic education.
It is not meant to be condescending, but it is the equivalent of saying not everyone is capable of working with their hands and producing artisan work.

An issue I think that has occurred in Ireland is that there is this mindset that everyone should go off to third level education and shure it looks great when we show how many graduates we have to all them foreigners.
The only issue is the standard is diluted, you find mickie mouse courses and people doing course for the sake of it.

And what is the definition of upskill, what is it meant to be ?
If you are normal unemployed factory floor worker what do you upskill to ?
Are you meant to now be a computer programmmer, a systems analyst, a futures trader, a carpenter, a chef, an interior designer ?

This argument always reminds of a time when farmers were being told to diversify into rearing rabbits, pheasants, deer, running B&B farmbreaks,etc.

That is all well and good for a few, but the major issue is that there isn't the market for everyone to move into the new sphere.

It's going to be a serious societal issue down the line, well actually it is starting to be a serious issue now. You are absolutely right the market will only bear employment for what is needed and a lot will be left behind if we follow the market model as it is today.

The fallacy is that upskilling is automatically associated in Ireland with going to college. Upskilling can also refer to apprenticeships, something that we in Ireland are pathetic at but the Germans excel at. Even then what people upskill themselves at today could very well be obsolete in ten years.

BTW your computer programmmer, systems analyst, futures trader, carpenter, chef, interior designer could very well be replaced as well in the future by AI or Automation as well. A lot of that is being worked on right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3670321/Rise-burger-flipping-machines-Robots-churn-400-burgers-hour-set-work-grill-new-restaurant.html

It's safe to assume that these people think that Trump is going to bring in a golden age again of Blue Collar work. The market is not moving that way. It is moving rapidly away from that model. These people have been lied to.

Widdershins · 11-11-2016 12:43PM

gandalf wrote: »

But the scary thing is anyone who was interviewed were convinced that Trump has a plan. There were no details to the plan. Make America Great again is an aspiration, it isn't a plan. Bring the jobs back isn't a plan it's a slogan. I believe people got suckered in by an aspiration and slogans and the actual plan is vapourware. What's worrying is what short term decisions will be made to try and achieve this non-plan and what real long term damage will it do to the US and to external markets.

From a purely selfish Irish perspective 135,000 people are directly employed by US owned or majority owned Enterprises. In 2014 $310 billion was invested in Ireland. How many of those jobs will be effected, how many knock on secondary jobs. I certainly expect any US firms looking to locate outside of the US will slow down their plans until the see what this new administration is going to do. That directly affects us.

All anyone can do is make predictions, for the time being. We really will have to wait and see.

gandalf · 11-11-2016 12:44PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

What's the alternative? Just abandon them? Because Work Fo-No Ting can do it for 5 cents an hour? That's it, sorry lads, **** yis
You can't just leave people to fester and rot. Donald was the only candidate left even acknowledging them, whatever of his promises.
Which, ironically, makes him the candidate working hardest to stop Hitler, because it's when you abandon people to a fate like that, while still taxing them that things like fascism are actually born....

Your missing my point, soon poor old Work Fo-No Ting won't have a job either.

As for Trump he is the one enabling fascism because if he lied to these people and actually has no plan then he is playing with chaos. Giving people hope is one thing, giving them hope and then revealing that it was all a lie will not end well.

Permabear · 11-11-2016 12:47PM

This post has been deleted.

Jelle1880 · 11-11-2016 12:48PM

rob316 wrote: »

The irony is lost on them though. That protestor called it a great democratic nation. The democratic process was followed, a system the electorate have trusted for a long time, he won.

You mean a system that has been under scrutiny for decades ?
That one ?

Your point reminds me of those that voted Leave during the Brexit referendum.
Just because one side wins an election or referendum doesn't mean the other side has to be happy about it or just sit back and accept it.

If you think that then we might as well do away with opposition in governments.

jimgoose · 11-11-2016 12:48PM

gandalf wrote: »

It's going to be a serious societal issue down the line, well actually it is starting to be a serious issue now. You are absolutely right the market will only bear employment for what is needed and a lot will be left behind if we follow the market model as it is today.

The fallacy is that upskilling is automatically associated in Ireland with going to college. Upskilling can also refer to apprenticeships, something that we in Ireland are pathetic at but the Germans excel at. Even then what people upskill themselves at today could very well be obsolete in ten years.

BTW your computer programmmer, systems analyst, futures trader, carpenter, chef, interior designer could very well be replaced as well in the future by AI or Automation as well. A lot of that is being worked on right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3670321/Rise-burger-flipping-machines-Robots-churn-400-burgers-hour-set-work-grill-new-restaurant.html

It's safe to assume that these people think that Trump is going to bring in a golden age again of Blue Collar work. The market is not moving that way. It is moving rapidly away from that model. These people have been lied to.

You wouldn't believe the amount of youngfellas (mainly) I encounter, even in this relatively comfortable little corner of Cork's Southside, knocking around with no job, insufficient education and without a hope in Hell. Now kick that out a couple of orders of magnitude for the UK, a couple of more for vast regions of the USA and you see the problem. No, I don't know what to do about it either. It is, however, interesting to see that Genisys in fact begins in fast-food outlets. :pac:

Exeggcute · 11-11-2016 12:52PM

The smug sneer of the so called experts has been well and truly wiped off their faces.

Well deserved

20Cent · 11-11-2016 12:53PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Slight difference between the teaching of religion in schools to denying climate change because a man up in the sky rules the weather.

Laois_Man · 11-11-2016 12:53PM

valoren wrote: »

It's a system that unnecessarily over complicates a very simple process.
What is it about people making simple yet important things (such as elections, money) more complicated than they need to be?

Keep the population densities and how many representatives they get based on that as it is.

But for the Presidency/Vice Presidency? A choice between one or two viable candidates?
Just take the total electorate together.

Person A get's more than Person B. Person A wins.
Person B concedes to basic arithmetic, you got more votes than me.

Done. :pac:

The population of California is almost 40 Million. That gives them about 12.5% of the entire population of the US - in a very Democrat leaning state. In the Electoral College system, they only have 10% of the electoral college votes and that stays the same no matter how much the population of CA grows and the population of another state decreases.

Without the systems that is in place, a candidate would only have to be extremely popular in the top 4 states (CA, TX, FL and NY) to win and the rest of the country, 46 states + DC, can go to hell.

That is why the Electoral College is in place and that is why it should stay!

Widdershins · 11-11-2016 12:54PM

gandalf wrote: »

Your missing my point, soon poor old Work Fo-No Ting won't have a job either.

As for Trump he is the one enabling fascism because if he lied to these people and actually has no plan then he is playing with chaos. Giving people hope is one thing, giving them hope and then revealing that it was all a lie will not end well.

Like Obama did when he stood up in a room full of these people and told them he'd wake up thinking of them every morning. Don't worry it won't be chaos if they're let down this time, because they're well used to it.

Permabear · 11-11-2016 12:55PM

This post has been deleted.

Renegade Mechanic · 11-11-2016 12:55PM

Morpheus wrote: »

If there's no work for these people, then how come so many J1s from ireland or Mexicans can get crap paying jobs there? why don't the unemployed americans just start off on the bottom rung and get crap pay to do a job?

Riiight, because with a mortgage and a family to feed, the J1 is your man. Those mortgage-less, family-less students had it sorted all along. Good Christ :rolleyes:

Laois_Man · 11-11-2016 12:57PM

gandalf wrote: »

There were no details to the plan. Make America Great again is an aspiration, it isn't a plan. Bring the jobs back isn't a plan it's a slogan. I believe people got suckered in by an aspiration and slogans and the actual plan is vapourware. What's worrying is what short term decisions will be made to try and achieve this non-plan and what real long term damage will it do to the US and to external markets.

Actually Trump does have a plan. The media just didn't want to talk about it.

It's a bull**** plan. But it's still a detailed plan.

humanji · 11-11-2016 01:00PM

Exeggcute wrote: »

The smug sneer of the so called experts has been well and truly wiped off their faces.

Well deserved

That depends if they're proven wrong in the long run.

gandalf · 11-11-2016 01:00PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

Actually Trump does have a plan. The media just didn't want to talk about it.

It's a bull**** plan. But it's still a detailed plan.

Can you post a link to it?

Renegade Mechanic · 11-11-2016 01:01PM

gandalf wrote: »

Your missing my point, soon poor old Work Fo-No Ting won't have a job either.

As for Trump he is the one enabling fascism because if he lied to these people and actually has no plan then he is playing with chaos. Giving people hope is one thing, giving them hope and then revealing that it was all a lie will not end well.

As opposed to Hillary who gives none and ends up in exactly the same place Trump is giving people hope they'll avoid.

You see where I'm going with this?
It's hopeless either way, but you try regardless.
He's promised to do (at least meaning he'll try).

As for an earlier suggestion that mabye they should upskill and become relevant in the current market; what a narrow minded moronic statement :rolleyes:

Yeah, let's increase the people looking for jobs in information technology et all by a few tens of millions. What happens to the wages you make that allow you to pontificate on the Internet while you sip $12 Starbucks coffe, clever clogs?

Besides which "modern" jobs are absolutely the FIRST jobs on the list of jobs that will be automated....

Jelle1880 · 11-11-2016 01:02PM

gandalf wrote: »

Can you post a link to it?

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

It starts off decent enough, then quickly descends into absolute nonsense.

lazygal · 11-11-2016 01:04PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It starts off decent enough, then quickly descends into absolute nonsense.

Sounds like the presidential campaign in general.

Laois_Man · 11-11-2016 01:04PM

keano_afc wrote: »

I can imagine the media reaction to these "protests" would be exactly the same if Clinton has won and it was Trump's supporters on the streets. :rolleyes:

Not only that, Trump was proactively encouraging his supporters to riot if he had lost the election while at the same time, bleeting on about the return of respect for law & order. But people who voted for him thinks he loves America, law and order, the police etc. I don’t know how they can stand the fact that a thug like him is going to be their Prez! The office of POTUS has lost a lot of its allure internationally now!

jimgoose · 11-11-2016 01:05PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

...Besides which "modern" jobs are absolutely the FIRST jobs on the list of jobs that will be automated....

Whichever ones piss me off the most. #WeAreBorg

Laois_Man · 11-11-2016 01:06PM

gandalf wrote: »

Can you post a link to it?

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies

retro:electro · 11-11-2016 01:07PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

http://www.npr.org/2016/11/09/501451368/here-is-what-donald-trump-wants-to-do-in-his-first-100-days

It starts off decent enough, then quickly descends into absolute nonsense.

Joking aside, that's actually a scary read.

humanji · 11-11-2016 01:07PM

lazygal wrote: »

Sounds like the presidential campaign in general.

Sounds like my sex life.

Renegade Mechanic · 11-11-2016 01:08PM

Let's remember for a second, the good Henry Ford's court battle in which he was SUED for holding the welfare of his workers above the welfare of his share holders.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

It's not impossible, you just need the people in power to share your view. Ford didn't have that. The next people - if they try - might.

FA Hayek · 11-11-2016 01:08PM

Akrasia wrote: »

The republicans are at the peak of their support, they've gone full nutjob, there is nowhere for them to go. the democrats need to allow the republicans to have that base of 60 million voters, and go after the other 150 million voters who are up for grabs, almost all of them more liberal and progressive than where the republicans and the democrats are right now.

Not so sure about this. Remember the GOP won the majority of the Senate Seats and the majority of Congress. They also have way more governors then the Democrats.

People who think that there will be some sort of permanent democratic majority when the Latino vote becomes larger and larger forget that as the years pass and 2nd,3rd,4th generation Latino voters are able to vote, the more conservative they too will become.

Irish America is a classic case. They have historically always voted for the Democratic party but recent elections see a big swing towards the GOP. The same will happen to what ever ethnic group emerges over the coming decade. Even with Trump threatening to deport all illegal Mexicans, he still got 1/3 of their vote. That is a vote that is easily attainable to get bigger.

The line in the sand is already drawn though, the GOP are now the populist nativist party while the Democrats are the internationalists and the elites. This will be the battle line for the next generation.

jmayo · 11-11-2016 01:11PM

gandalf wrote: »

But the scary thing is anyone who was interviewed were convinced that Trump has a plan. There were no details to the plan. Make America Great again is an aspiration, it isn't a plan. Bring the jobs back isn't a plan it's a slogan. I believe people got suckered in by an aspiration and slogans and the actual plan is vapourware. What's worrying is what short term decisions will be made to try and achieve this non-plan and what real long term damage will it do to the US and to external markets.

But the point is he at least appeared to care.
He visited Wisconsin 5 times.

Wisconsin was seen as a democrat stronghold and Clinton couldn't be ar**ed going there once.
Hell the Republican establishment and media thought Trump was an eejit for going there.
And yes I do agree Trump probably doesn't have a plan, but the people are getting desperate so if a snake oil salesman turns up they will now jump on board because what they see as the establishment have basically forgotten about them.

Clinton went to West Virginia and told the coal miners that the mines were uneconomical and environmentally bad.
Basically tough shyte there goes your livelihood even if it is a sh**, mad dangerous one.

Trump went and told them he would reopen mines.
Trump wins big in West Virginia.

gandalf wrote: »

From a purely selfish Irish perspective 135,000 people are directly employed by US owned or majority owned Enterprises. In 2014 $310 billion was invested in Ireland. How many of those jobs will be effected, how many knock on secondary jobs. I certainly expect any US firms looking to locate outside of the US will slow down their plans until the see what this new administration is going to do. That directly affects us.

The thing is the likes of Apple, Microsoft, Pfizer, Intel, Facefook, Google can't survive on the US market alone.
They are global brands and they need access to the markets.
In some of those cases we also need them mainly because they have often driven out the competition or subsumed it.

PS IMHO nobody needs fecking Facefook. :mad:

Morpheus wrote: »

If there's no work for these people, then how come so many J1s from ireland or Mexicans can get crap paying jobs there? why don't the unemployed americans just start off on the bottom rung and get crap pay to do a job?

Are the J1s and Mexicans heading to Flint, Bethlehem, Gary, etc ?
No they are heading to California, Nevada, New York, New Jersey, etc.

It is fine and easy to move if you are free and single.
Not so easy if you are middle aged with kids.

jimgoose · 11-11-2016 01:11PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Not so sure about this. Remember the GOP won the majority of the Senate Seats and the majority of Congress. They also have way more governors then the Democrats.

People who think that there will be some sort of permanent democratic majority when the Latino vote becomes larger and larger forget that as the years pass and 2nd,3rd,4th generation Latino voters are able to vote, the more conservative they too will become.

Irish America is a classic case. They have historically always voted for the Democratic party but recent elections see a big swing towards the GOP. The same will happen to what ever ethnic group emerges over the coming decade. Even with Trump threatening to deport all illegal Mexicans, he still got 1/3 of their vote. That is a vote that is easily attainable to get bigger.

The line in the sand is already drawn though, the GOP are now the populist nativist party while the Democrats are the internationalists and the elites. This will be the battle line for the next generation.

Agreed. Bear in mind also that even Buffy and Dash from the tennis club were once cabbage-looking German immigrants, if you go back a bit. :pac:

rob316 · 11-11-2016 01:13PM

Through out all this the only one I want to punch the head off is that liberal twat on MSNBC Rachel Maddow. She really is unbearable. Think the very opposite of Katie Hopkins and you get her.

gandalf · 11-11-2016 01:15PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

As for an earlier suggestion that mabye they should upskill and become relevant in the current market; what a narrow minded moronic statement :rolleyes:

What do you suggest. Make up pretend jobs for them :rolleyes:

Yeah, let's increase the people looking for jobs in information technology et all by a few tens of millions. What happens to the wages you make that allow you to pontificate on the Internet while you sip $12 Starbucks coffe, clever clogs?

Besides which "modern" jobs are absolutely the FIRST jobs on the list of jobs that will be automated....

No IT jobs aren't safe either.

..Top computer scientists in the US warned over the weekend that the rise of artificial intelligence (AI) and robots in the workplace could cause mass unemployment and dislocated economies, rather than simply unlocking productivity gains and freeing us all up to watch TV and play sports.

And a recent report from Citi, produced in conjunction with the University of Oxford, highlights how increased automation could lead to greater inequality.
..

http://uk.businessinsider.com/robots-will-steal-your-job-citi-ai-increase-unemployment-inequality-2016-2

jimgoose · 11-11-2016 01:21PM

jimgoose wrote: »

Arizona has declared for Trump, with 11 Electoral College votes. Michigan still dawdling - it's tight, but Mr. T. is ahead by a nose.

And Michigan have declared. Trump it is, 47.6/47.3%. That's all, folks.

El Presidente Trump

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