Louise O Neill on rape culture.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:23PM

And...why would I head straight to the Guards and tell them, when we have an extremely low rape conviction rate!

Zulu · 09-11-2016 08:28PM

Are you suggesting that the reason we have a low conviction rate is due to a cultural appreciation of rape?

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:29PM

Zulu wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the reason we have a low conviction rate is due to a cultural appreciation of rape?

What do you think about it?

09-11-2016 08:32PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What do you think about it?

You were directly asked a question on topic. Why flat out refuse to answer it? Only a page ago you were all too quick to call people bullies who wouldn't engage in discussion, as you saw it. This poster civilly asked you a question relevant to the discussion. Why not just answer them?

Zulu · 09-11-2016 08:33PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What do you think about it?

I think you are dodging a direct question. ...and that speaks volumes.

What do I think about it? I've posted my thoughts already on the thread, it's no secret. There is no cultural appreciation of rape in this country.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:40PM

Omackeral wrote: »

You were directly asked a question on topic. Why flat out refuse to answer it? Only a page ago you were all too quick to call people bullies who wouldn't engage in discussion, as you saw it. This poster civilly asked you a question relevant to the discussion. Why not just answer them?

You are able to see that I asked a poster 'a question on topic' two posts before that, and it was ignored.

Are you going to say to him 'why not just answer her'?

If you have the opinion that a question on topic should be answered, you should apply it to all posters.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:42PM

Zulu wrote: »

I think you are dodging a direct question. ...and that speaks volumes.

What do I think about it? I've posted my thoughts already on the thread, it's no secret. There is no cultural appreciation of rape in this country.

I sit here looking forward to you speaking to the other male posters on here, who dodged questions directly before me.

Oh wait, is it just me who's not allowed to?

Why is that?

mzungu · 09-11-2016 08:44PM

The definition of rape culture and what it entails is a society that "fosters and encourages rape by instructing citizens that it is normal and natural for sexual relations to involve aggressive behavior on the part of males." (Barnet, Sligar & Wang 2016)

Does anybody think the above applies to Ireland, and if so how?

09-11-2016 08:48PM

mzungu wrote: »

The definition of rape culture and what it entails is a society that "fosters and encourages rape by instructing citizens that it is normal and natural for sexual relations to involve aggressive behavior on the part of males." (Barnet, Sligar & Wang 2016)

Does anybody think the above applies to Ireland, and if so how?

It's definitely not a social norm nor is it accepted in Ireland. Even in prisons, sex offenders are seen as the lowest of the low and need to be separated from the general population, which includes murderers. That is the very antithesis of acceptance.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:49PM

*Rush of lots of men saying why did people ignore the question by Midlandsmissus, 'What do you think about Ireland having the lowest rape conviction rate in the E.U.' while we accuse MM about ignoring a question

Oh no wait, people are being hypocrites, lol:D

One rule for others, one rule for me who opposes your view.

That bull**** doesn't wash with me,

me_right_one · 09-11-2016 08:51PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Hmmm, some-one having an opinion that there is rape culture on a thread about rape culture, you think is trolling.

Do I not fit in to your narrow criteria? 'To post on this thread we must all agree that there is not rape culture! I insist'.

That's not a discussion. That's bullying.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I see you conveniently ignored my question. Why don't you answer that one first.

First, I didnt see your post, as it obviously went up as I was typing mine. But I'll bite. Is it the following question you mean:

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Do I not fit in to your narrow criteria?

To be honest, it seems like a loaded question. You are (rightly) suggesting that I have a narrow criteria of what rape culture is. So no, YOU dont fit into the narrow definition of a cultural rapist. These lads do though: Issam D., a 16-year-old Moroccan; and Mohamed T., a 23-year-old Tunisian. They were part of a group of 1000 (YES, ONE THOUSAND) men who deliberately organised and set out to rape women on a single night, in Cologne. They congratulated themselves on having done so. THATS rape culture.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What do you think about Ireland, as it stands, having one of the lowest rates of conviction for rape in the E.U.

Well you're not going to get convictions if people dont press charges! The ball is squarely at YOUR foot there.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Is there anything about our culture that is affecting this?

Yes. Poor sentencing. Its happening across the board. Those 4 scumbags who beat a 76 year old man in his own shop only got 2.5 years. The legal "industry" has a lot to answer for here. In reality, those lads should have gotten 20 years each. But then they wouldnt be out committing crimes for poor solicitors to defend now, would they!?! Its the same for sex crimes.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Do you think there is anywhere to improve there as a country?

Yes. Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.

So now, hopefully all your questions have been answered

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 08:56PM

me_right_one wrote: »

First, I didnt see your post, as it obviously went up as I was typing mine. But I'll bite. Is it the following question you mean:

Do I not fit in to your narrow criteria?[/QUOTE]

To be honest, it seems like a loaded question. You are (rightly) suggesting that I have a narrow criteria of what rape culture is. So no, YOU dont fit into the narrow definition of a cultural rapist. These lads do though: Issam D., a 16-year-old Moroccan; and Mohamed T., a 23-year-old Tunisian. They were part of a group of 1000 (YES, ONE THOUSAND) men who deliberately organised and set out to rape women on a single night, in Cologne. They congratulated themselves on having done so. THATS rape culture.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

I'm sure you know well what I meant here: Do I not fit into your narrow criteria of people who can post on this thread. You seem to not want anyone that doesn't agree with your view, 'There is no rape culture' to even post on this thread. When on a thread about rape culture, is baffling and controlling.

Well you're not going to get convictions if people dont press charges! The ball is squarely at YOUR foot there.

Wrong. Do some research. Every study on rape in Ireland shows that there are extremely low convictions for the people that DO press charges! One study quoted: of all reported rapes in that year, 7% were convicted. 7%

Yes. Poor sentencing. Its happening across the board. Those 4 scumbags who beat a 76 year old man in his own shop only got 2.5 years. The legal "industry" has a lot to answer for here. In reality, those lads should have gotten 20 years each. But then they wouldnt be out committing crimes for poor solicitors to defend now, would they!?! Its the same for sex crimes.

Yes. Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.[/QUOTE]

Ulysses Gaze · 09-11-2016 08:56PM

me_right_one wrote: »

First, I didnt see your post, as it obviously went up as I was typing mine. But I'll bite. Is it the following question you mean:

To be honest, it seems like a loaded question. You are (rightly) suggesting that I have a narrow criteria of what rape culture is. So no, YOU dont fit into the narrow definition of a cultural rapist. These lads do though: Issam D., a 16-year-old Moroccan; and Mohamed T., a 23-year-old Tunisian. They were part of a group of 1000 (YES, ONE THOUSAND) men who deliberately organised and set out to rape women on a single night, in Cologne. They congratulated themselves on having done so. THATS rape culture.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

Well you're not going to get convictions if people dont press charges! The ball is squarely at YOUR foot there.

Yes. Poor sentencing. Its happening across the board. Those 4 scumbags who beat a 76 year old man in his own shop only got 2.5 years. The legal "industry" has a lot to answer for here. In reality, those lads should have gotten 20 years each. But then they wouldnt be out committing crimes for poor solicitors to defend now, would they!?! Its the same for sex crimes.

Yes. Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.

So now, hopefully all your questions have been answered

Tied into this is Judicial discretion. That's where you get b*llocks like concurrent sentencing.

If the law were more like it was on the continent, Codified Law, sentences would be much harsher. And the letter of the law would be followed in terms of sentencing.

FortySeven · 09-11-2016 08:56PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

*Rush of lots of men saying why did people ignore the question by Midlandsmissus, 'What do you think about Ireland having the lowest rape conviction rate in the E.U.' while we accuse MM about ignoring a question

Oh no wait, people are being hypocrites, lol:D

One rule for others, one rule for me who opposes your view.

That bull**** doesn't wash with me,

It could possibly be the antiquated legal system in Ireland? It might be the antiquated garda force in Ireland?

This countries public services are 10 years behind most European countries. I've seen the inside of the criminal justice system of the UK and Ireland. The comparison is so far removed as to be incomparable.

Or are you suggesting that there is some kind of unspoken collusion of men within these complex systems and organisations to keep victims of sexual abuse from justice?

I can't be bothered to look up figures myself for such an absurd argument but perhaps you could do me the honour. How comparable are other Irish coviction rates? Car theft? Murder? Robbery etc.

eviltwin · 09-11-2016 08:56PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Yes. Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.

So now, hopefully all your questions have been answered

You don't want to go back to those days and those attitudes do you :eek:

Zulu · 09-11-2016 08:56PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I sit here looking forward to you speaking to the other male posters on here, who dodged questions directly before me.

I'm not challenging them because I didn't ask them a question; they aren't dodging my question, you are!

You want me to champion your cause when you wouldn't even answer a question I put to you? Why should I? Because you are a girl? Lord almighty. :rolleyes:

I asked you a question and you refuse to answer it. Only you know why.

Oh wait, is it just me who's not allowed to?
Why is it that?

So your position now is that if you feel someone isn't going to agree with you, or challenge your opinion, you dodge their question and cry "bullying"? Or that everyone is ganging up on you?? That's fairly pathetic tbh..
Good luck with that.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 09:01PM

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not challenging them because I didn't ask them a question; they aren't dodging my question, you are!

You want me to champion your cause when you wouldn't even answer a question I put to you? Why should I? Because you are a girl? Lord almighty. :rolleyes:

I asked you a question and you refuse to answer it. Only you know why.

So your position now is that if you feel someone isn't going to agree with you, or challenge your opinion, you dodge their question and cry "bullying"? Or that everyone is ganging up on you?? That's fairly pathetic tbh..
Good luck with that.

I like a fair playing field. You and another poster turned on me for not answering a question, when in fact I asked 'what do you think about it', as I was interested to know.

You and this other poster did not mention the poster directly before me who didn't answer my question.

I pointed out the injustice of that, which stands.

osmiumartist · 09-11-2016 09:01PM

Interesting that O'Neill is now invoking the supposed equivalence of her own "struggle" with that of black people, who in the USA are three times more likely to commit a forcible rape than white people.
I guess that's the patriarchy's fault again though. Silly me.

(http://infogr.am/Black-34991937313)

FortySeven · 09-11-2016 09:03PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Interesting that O'Neill is now invoking the supposed equivalence of her own "struggle" with that of black people, who in the USA are three times more likely to commit a forcible rape than white people.
I guess that's the patriarchy's fault again though. Silly me.

(http://infogr.am/Black-34991937313)

The first rule of the patriarchy - YOU DON'T MENTION THE PATRIARCHY! :mad:

me_right_one · 09-11-2016 09:05PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm sure you know well what I meant here: Do I not fit into your narrow criteria of people who can post on this thread. You seem to not want anyone that doesn't agree with your view, 'There is no rape culture' to even post on this thread. When on a thread about rape culture, is baffling and controlling.

Actually, I didnt know what you meant. I cant read minds. Neither can Guards, so get reporting!!!

And of course you can post on this thread. But excuse the fcuk out of me if I am slightly offended by being branded a rapist, or a rapist sympathiser. Becasue, as you know, if a "rape culture" exists here, that would mean the general public (including me) approve of it.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wrong. Do some research. Every study on rape in Ireland shows that there are extremely low convictions for the people that DO press charges! One study quoted: of all reported rapes in that year, 7% were convicted. 7%

I agree thats shockingly low. Would that have anything to do with being grabbed by the vagina NOT being the same as rape, yet some people think it is and feel aggrieved when they're told "Eh, you werent actually raped in that incident missus"? Or maybe its to do with women not coming forward? Or maybe its to do with sh1t sentencing? Or most likely, all three? Would that be possible? Is there anything you have in your power to change any of these things?

Just cos its worth saying again:

Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.

mzungu · 09-11-2016 09:07PM

Omackeral wrote: »

It's definitely not a social norm nor is it accepted in Ireland. Even in prisons, sex offenders are seen as the lowest of the low and need to be separated from the general population, which includes murderers. That is the very antithesis of acceptance.

Indeed, and this is one of the main reasons why the hyperbole that surrounds this whole idea of rape culture only serves to hold things back. There needs to be a discussion about consent and indeed inappropriate contact, but the shrill hysterics from the Twittersphere have no place in it.

Zulu · 09-11-2016 09:09PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I like a fair playing field. You and another poster turned on me for not answering a question, when in fact I asked 'what do you think about it', as I was interested to know.

You and this other poster did not mention the poster directly before me who didn't answer my question.

I pointed out the injustice of that, which stands.

I asked you a question.
You dodged it and asked a question.
I answered your question, you continue to dodge mine and hide behind excuses. And to the life of me I don't know why!

That's all there is too it. There's no collusion with other posters; it is in your head. Your post is pure "pity me I'm being oppressed" bs. Get off the stage.

osmiumartist · 09-11-2016 09:12PM

me_right_one wrote: »

I agree thats shockingly low. Would that have anything to do with being grabbed by the vagina NOT being the same as rape, yet some people think it is and feel aggrieved when they're told "Eh, you werent actually raped in that incident missus"? Or maybe its to do with women not coming forward? Or maybe its to do with sh1t sentencing? Or most likely, all three? Would that be possible? Is there anything you have in your power to change any of these things?

Again, I really have no idea what feminists are hoping to achieve by continually and deliberately conflating sexual assault or even plain old lewd behaviour with rape. Maybe you think everybody's going to join in and pretend every "cor, look at the jugs on that" is an anal full penetration gang rape, but you also run the very real risk that the reverse will happen: oh, rape? That's like a pat on the bum in a crowded nightclub, right?
So where does that get them?

mzungu · 09-11-2016 09:12PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Just cos its worth saying again:

Give sex the respect it deserves. Its not a hobby. In my day, you were a virgin until your wedding night (for men AND women), and even then an affair was seen as the worst thing that could ever happen to somebody. Now its just sex on tap wherever you go, with as many people as you like. No wonder rapists find it so easy to hide.

Disagree. There is nothing wrong with sex, or having lots of it with different people. Even back in the crap ol days of holy catholic Ireland, rapes still happened. Also, it's hardly "sex on tap" all over the shop, you would swear we were all living in a 1970s French arthouse erotica film!

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 09:13PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Actually, I didnt know what you meant. I cant read minds. Neither can Guards, so get reporting!!!

And of course you can post on this thread. But excuse the fcuk out of me if I am slightly offended by being branded a rapist, or a rapist sympathiser. Becasue, as you know, if a "rape culture" exists here, that would mean the general public (including me) approve of it.

I agree thats shockingly low. Would that have anything to do with being grabbed by the vagina NOT being the same as rape, yet some people think it is and feel aggrieved when they're told "Eh, you werent actually raped in that incident missus"? Or maybe its to do with women not coming forward? Or maybe its to do with sh1t sentencing? Or most likely, all three? Would that be possible? Is there anything you have in your power to change any of these things?

I'm not calling you a rapist or a rapist sympathiser.

Rape culture does not mean every man is a rapist, how does that make any sense, it means that alot of rapes and sexual assaults are happening due to grey issues with consent, and alot of these are not being convicted due to grey areas of sentencing.

I said before that being grabbed by the vagina is one example of sexual assault. One! People speak about the lesser stuff as it is the easier example to give.

We get stuck in these conversations because women say: something is not right in this area, and needs to be changed, and men don't like to hear it, jump to the defense, and say I am not a rapist/all men are not rapists.

We are not saying all men are rapists! We are saying going forward, for both gender's benefits, discussions need to be had about consent.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 09:14PM

Zulu wrote: »

I asked you a question.
You dodged it and asked a question.
I answered your question, you continue to dodge mine and hide behind excuses. And to the life of me I don't know why!

That's all there is too it. There's no collusion with other posters; it is in your head. Your post is pure "pity me I'm being oppressed" bs. Get off the stage.

Get off before me. I also call your post total and utter bull****. What of anything important is that contributing?

me_right_one · 09-11-2016 09:14PM

eviltwin wrote: »

You don't want to go back to those days and those attitudes do you :eek:

To the "days" and "attitudes" (read VALUES) when people had a healthy respect for sex, as opposed to using it like a drug? To a system which valued faithfullness and fidelity in relationships and where women were treated with dignity and equality instead of being objects?

Eh, yes, I actually do.

osmiumartist · 09-11-2016 09:17PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

We are not saying all men are rapists! We are saying going forward, for both gender's benefits, discussions need to be had about consent.

So you're saying Ireland has a problem with consent.
Problem... Consent... Problem... Consent...
I know! Let's call it rape culture.

midlandsmissus · 09-11-2016 09:19PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

So you're saying Ireland has a problem with consent.
Problem... Consent... Problem... Consent...
I know! Let's call it rape culture.

Emmmmm.......yes?

eviltwin · 09-11-2016 09:19PM

me_right_one wrote: »

To the "days" and "attitudes" (read VALUES) when people had a healthy respect for sex, as opposed to using it like a drug? To a system which valued faithfullness and fidelity in relationships and where women were treated with dignity and equality instead of being objects?

Eh, yes, I actually do.

Those days had their own problems, people shamed for having a normal sexual appetite, people uneducated about sex, stuck in marriages with people they were sexually incompatible with....

Most of us have our fun before we settle down, it doesn't mean we lack respect for ourselves and anyone else. I'm very grateful I was able to have the fun experiences I had without the shame that would have been piled on me in the 'good old day's '

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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