Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

08-11-2016 12:02PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Some say it was all about shifting focus from a European market place towards gaining the freedom to trade with the rest of the world.

Indeed, this is said by the Brexiteers but it's absolute rubbish. I can't think of any situation where the UK would make a better trade deal than one the EU negotiates for all its Member States, unless they want to go in for sanctions busting or similar.
Teresa May is learning this in India, as we speak.

wes · 08-11-2016 12:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Teresa May is learning this in India, as we speak.

She gave them an ultimatum in regards to taking back Indians over staying there Visa's. I am not entirely sure, how there suppose to accomplish that. Seeing as its surely up to the UK to deport people over staying Visa's and not there home country, who are hardly in a position to enforce UK immigration law.

I can only imagine her demand will not go down well.

So, we already have issues with the Australia trade deal, due to it being illegal to do one, until the UK is out. Preliminary talk with India has May, giving them an ultimatum in regards to immigration. I am sure other countries are watching what is happening, and taking notes.

seamus · 08-11-2016 12:08PM

who the fug wrote: »

They did take things seriously they didn't annoy the electorate to start with, which is vert important if you want to win an election

Which is why referendums on complicated matters are generally stupid. Because people vote on things that have nothing to do with the matter at hand.

jmayo · 08-11-2016 12:15PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

careful, you'll get labelled as a Brexiter

Actually not really pro Brexit as it takes Britain out of common market with Ireland, but very pro, to borrow a phrase used round here a bit, teaching the EU and it's federalists a lesson.

I want an EU that is a common market, not an EU that is dictated by that mad bi*ch in Berlin, her lickspittles in other European capitals, the slimey hoors in Frankfurt or the ex national politicians in Brussels.

wes wrote: »

Genghis Khans empire was far superior . If the UK goes around the world with that attitude, there in for a rude awakening, when people tell them to go away.

Empires were grand for the ones doing the conquering, not so nice for the poor bast*rds been conquered and slaughtered.
That applied to all of the Empires be they Persian, Macedonian, Roman, Spanish, British, Mongol, Japanese or whoever.

As for India, it was always discriminatory, always divided.
The British were very good at playing one group off against another and using planters in order to maintain control and so set the seeds for divisive conflicts once they left.
That has applied all the way from Fiji to Ireland and everywhere in between.

As for Brexit I think Snickers Man summed up pretty well the issues with the leave side.
It is a hotchpotch of the disaffected and there isn't a real consensus in what they want.

catbear · 08-11-2016 12:24PM

Jmayo, the EU is a common market. The UK doesn't want a common market.

Zubeneschamali · 08-11-2016 12:34PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Some say it was all about democracy--let's shake off the tyrannical hand of the unelected Commission and go back to the inherent democracy of our monarchy and the House of Lords

Some say it was all about the regions, who have been short-changed by Westminster and helped by EU funds, who want to get rid of those EU funds and give more power to Westminster.

robindch · 08-11-2016 12:40PM

jmayo wrote: »

I want an EU that is a common market, not an EU that is dictated by that mad bi*ch in Berlin, her lickspittles in other European capitals, the slimey hoors in Frankfurt or the ex national politicians in Brussels.

The EU already is a common market.

I'm not sure what the rest of your post is meant to convey other than that you're angry.

Have you tried asking somebody for a hug or perhaps going to a nice cafe and having some coffee?

robindch · 08-11-2016 01:00PM

The cross-party Institute for Government has released a report which points out the slightly obvious fact that countries tend to trade more with nearby countries than countries which are far away.

http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/14876/the-first-steps-towards-an-independent-uk-trade-policy/

.

Fratton Fred · 08-11-2016 01:23PM

catbear wrote: »

Jmayo, the EU is a common market. The UK doesn't want a common market.

no, the eu has a common market. the eu itself has long moved on from just being a common market

catbear · 08-11-2016 01:26PM

Anyone else see top brexiteer Davis make this declaration yesterday?

“The aim, as I said to you before, is that the common travel area rights - including the rights to vote, the rights to work and so on, both ways - will continue, but I will come back to you about the detail.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/irish-in-uk-will-be-protected-after-brexit-davis-says-1.2858575

Irish peoples right to work in the UK is under the 1949 Republic of Ireland act, which isn't reciprocated in Irish law.

Davis appears to assume that UK citizens can access the EU job market in Ireland without the restrictions that he will place on EU citizens in the UK.

The CTA was never about the labour market and was actually pulled back to exclude to exclude Northern Ireland during WWII and the decade after.

It's only a matter of time before they turn on us when the continent gives them zero hop. I reckon anyone who thinks being irish in the UK is a pass may get a rude awakening yet.

08-11-2016 01:38PM

By the way, something that seems to be misunderstood all round. The two year negotiation period after triggering Article 50 is not to negotiate a new relationship between the leaving Member State and the rest of the EU.

It's to dis-entangle the current relationship.

For example, when do payments to and from the EU stop? What about staff costs, the pensions for UK people working there, payments for projects agreed when UK was a member but which continue after their departure, drafting and agreeing a huge legal decision which will remove the words 'United Kingdom' from thousands of legal decisions and regulations etc etc...

These are two very different negotiations, and this is one of the reasons why Teresa May keeps repeating 'Brexit is Brexit' because she knows that that's all she will have got when the two year period expires.

Fratton Fred · 08-11-2016 02:14PM

catbear wrote: »

Anyone else see top brexiteer Davis make this declaration yesterday?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/irish-in-uk-will-be-protected-after-brexit-davis-says-1.2858575

Irish peoples right to work in the UK is under the 1949 Republic of Ireland act, which isn't reciprocated in Irish law.

isn't it? British citizens are entitled to a lot more rights in ireland than other eu citizens are

catbear wrote: »

Davis appears to assume that UK citizens can access the EU job market in Ireland without the restrictions that he will place on EU citizens in the UK.

The CTA was never about the labour market and was actually pulled back to exclude to exclude Northern Ireland during WWII and the decade after.

it wasn't, no. it was put in place to reflect the very complex relationship between the two countries

catbear wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before they turn on us when the continent gives them zero hop. I reckon anyone who thinks being irish in the UK is a pass may get a rude awakening yet.

that's just scaremongering.

Nate--IRL-- · 08-11-2016 02:21PM

Deleted User wrote: »

By the way, something that seems to be misunderstood all round. The two year negotiation period after triggering Article 50 is not to negotiate a new relationship between the leaving Member State and the rest of the EU.

It's to dis-entangle the current relationship.

For example, when do payments to and from the EU stop? What about staff costs, the pensions for UK people working there, payments for projects agreed when UK was a member but which continue after their departure, drafting and agreeing a huge legal decision which will remove the words 'United Kingdom' from thousands of legal decisions and regulations etc etc...

These are two very different negotiations, and this is one of the reasons why Teresa May keeps repeating 'Brexit is Brexit' because she knows that that's all she will have got when the two year period expires.

Its amazing that this point is lost among all the talk of Soft or Hard Brexit - there is no Soft Brexit - just Brexit. Article 50 only has mandate for the Applicant country to leave - completely.

The UK must - after completion of Article 50 - negotiate back in, for the benefits it wants. This could mean years in Limbo.

Nate

Hande hoche! · 08-11-2016 02:24PM

Seems the Scots are appealing to the Supreme court.

VinLieger · 08-11-2016 02:26PM

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Its amazing that this point is lost among all the talk of Soft or Hard Brexit - there is no Soft Brexit - just Brexit. Article 50 only has mandate for the Applicant country to leave - completely.

The UK must - after completion of Article 50 - negotiate back in, for the benefits it wants. This could mean years in Limbo.

Nate

That sounds like the kind of annoying factual information that lost the vote for the remain camp.

Less annoying boring facts and more exciting non-factual rhetoric please!!!

demfad · 08-11-2016 02:44PM

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Seems the Scots are appealing to the Supreme court.

Yes. If rights of British people are affected by triggering article 50, the rights of Scottish people are also affected. Scotland will argue therefore that there should be approval required from the Scottish parliament as well as the British one. The Welsh are considering this also I believe.

steddyeddy · 08-11-2016 03:04PM

This Brexit thing gets more messed up with each passing week.

steddyeddy · 08-11-2016 03:07PM

Sturgeon's making things difficult for May and the Tories. From the BBC.

Nicola Sturgeon has launched a legal ambush on the UK Government as it seeks to overturn a court ruling which forces it to let MPs vote on Theresa May’s Brexit plans.

The Scottish First Minister has ordered the nation’s most senior law officer, the Lord Advocate, to lodge a formal application at the Supreme Court to intervene in the case.

Ms Sturgeon said it "simply cannot be right" that rights linked to membership of the European Union "can be removed by the UK Government on the say-so of a Prime Minister without parliamentary debate, scrutiny or consent".

The First Minister added: "So legislation should be required at Westminster and the consent of the Scottish Parliament should be sought before Article 50 is triggered."

Last week the High Court ruled that Ms May could not use royal prerogative powers to trigger Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty launching official Brexit talks. The Government now plans to appeal the ruling at the Supreme Court.

VinLieger · 08-11-2016 03:12PM

Ohhh lol it just keeps piling up how they really had no clue what they were doing, the example of a dog chasing a car just keeps becoming more and more relevant

who the fug · 08-11-2016 03:17PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

This Brexit thing gets more messed up with each passing week.

Not really, the UK is going to hand in article 50 next year, and leave after two years.

There will be lots of meetings , newspaper stories, hissy fits , and then we will have left.

A quick reminder of what powers Scotland has is here

robindch · 08-11-2016 03:19PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

This Brexit thing gets more messed up with each passing week.

Each passing day. At this point, I don't really blame the Tories any more for concealing their "negotiating strategy" or, indeed, any firm plans beyond the meaningless trope 'brexit means brexit'.

Mainly because events are unravelling so quickly that any statement with an identifiable meaning is likely to be superseded within hours by yet another wheel coming off the Coach of State.

Haven't heard from Boris for a while - could it be his turn in the spotlight soon? Perhaps he could tell the Australians to start drinking English wine or maybe he could write a nasty poem about Hillary Clinton or the Chinese premier.

TheCitizen · 08-11-2016 03:21PM

who the fug wrote: »

Not really, the UK is going to hand in article 50 next year, and leave after two years.

There will be lots of meetings , newspaper stories, hissy fits , and then we will have left.

A quick reminder of what powers Scotland has is here

:pac: What a joke you lot have become

catbear · 08-11-2016 03:58PM

TheCitizen wrote: »

:pac: What a joke you lot have become

While brexiteer rightly deserve derision there are still people in the UK who are equally sickened so be mindful with your gloating.

jmayo · 08-11-2016 04:00PM

catbear wrote: »

Jmayo, the EU is a common market.

No sh** Sherlock. :rolleyes:

It stopped being just a common single market with free movement of goods and people a long time ago.

It now has a major ill planned currency that ultimately fits the stronger economies at the centre, but tries to shoehorn disparate economies into it at huge expense to normal people.
It now has a leadership that dictates to sovereign states not alone how they run their economies/governments, but also who they allow into their country.

catbear wrote: »

The UK doesn't want a common market.

Actually I would say the vast majority of UK citizens would want a common market, for goods at least.
Not so sure about free movement of people.

But a lot of them like a hell of a lot of other Europeans don't want the EU as it is today.

robindch wrote: »

The EU already is a common market.

Well holy God yet another stating the bleedin obvious.
But of course forgetting to mention the federalisation of Europe all under Berlin/Frankfurt/Brussels control.

robindch wrote: »

I'm not sure what the rest of your post is meant to convey other than that you're angry.

Have you tried asking somebody for a hug or perhaps going to a nice cafe and having some coffee?

Yes I am angry because I see the version of Europe or EU that frau merkel, monsieur hollande, herr lofven, juncker, tusk and schulz want.

Cafe and coffee, how European.
Michael McDowell would love ya.

Mezcita · 08-11-2016 04:11PM

jmayo wrote: »

No sh** Sherlock. :rolleyes:

It stopped being just a common single market with free movement of goods and people a long time ago.

It now has a major ill planned currency that ultimately fits the stronger economies at the centre, but tries to shoehorn disparate economies into it at huge expense to normal people.
It now has a leadership that dictates to sovereign states not alone how they run their economies/governments, but also who they allow into their country.

Actually I would say the vast majority of UK citizens would want a common market, for goods at least.
Not so sure about free movement of people.

But a lot of them like a hell of a lot of other Europeans don't want the EU as it is today.

Well holy God yet another stating the bleedin obvious.
But of course forgetting to mention the federalisation of Europe all under Berlin/Frankfurt/Brussels control.

Yes I am angry because I see the version of Europe or EU that frau merkel, monsieur hollande, herr lofven, juncker, tusk and schulz want.

Cafe and coffee, how European.
Michael McDowell would love ya.

-5 point penalty for use of rolley eye smiley.

Fratton Fred · 08-11-2016 04:15PM

jmayo wrote: »

Well holy God yet another stating the bleedin obvious.
But of course forgetting to mention the federalisation of Europe all under Berlin/Frankfurt/Brussels control.

Yes I am angry because I see the version of Europe or EU that frau merkel, monsieur hollande, herr lofven, juncker, tusk and schulz want.

Cafe and coffee, how European.
Michael McDowell would love ya.

that is something i think people are missing.

The clear objective of the eu is ever closer union, with Junckers clearly wanting a united states of europe.

Is this what people want? will the Dial become just another glorified borough council within a larger european state? At what point do people say enough is enough?

VinLieger · 08-11-2016 04:27PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that is something i think people are missing.

The clear objective of the eu is ever closer union, with Junckers clearly wanting a united states of europe.

Is this what people want? will the Dial become just another glorified borough council within a larger european state? At what point do people say enough is enough?

Agreed, that is the obvious end goal for the EU and tbh in 50-100 years might even make sense depending on the state of the world and culture shifts within the EU but its being pushed for far too soon by people like juncker looking to leave their legacy on history and not thinking instead about the actual health and success of the union.

Zubeneschamali · 08-11-2016 04:31PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is this what people want? will the Dial become just another glorified borough council within a larger european state?

Absolutely. I have been voting that way for 30 years.

steddyeddy · 08-11-2016 04:32PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that is something i think people are missing.

The clear objective of the eu is ever closer union, with Junckers clearly wanting a united states of europe.

Is this what people want? will the Dial become just another glorified borough council within a larger european state? At what point do people say enough is enough?

I agree. It seems like imperialism through the back door.

Zubeneschamali · 08-11-2016 04:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I agree. It seems like imperialism through the back door.

It's not a back door.

The EEC/EU has always had a goal of closer integration, from the day we joined. It is not a secret.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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