Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll be quote honest in saying that Fred's talking balls about Indian history.

Such as?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm not really interested in the excuses for colonialism, more than I am in it's effects.
It hasn't effected you, Mary and the Little Pony very well if the simpering and unrelenting defence of it across many threads is anything to go by.

Such as?

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It may be that the UK will have to be taught a lesson.
It may be that part of that lesson has been taught and absorbed already.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

such as, and for what?

Still waiting for an answer.

Why does the UK need to be "Taught a lesson" and what form should this lesson take?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Still waiting for an answer.

Why does the UK need to be "Taught a lesson" and what form should this lesson take?

That is obvious, because you cannot expect favours if you did your best to undermine something from the start, by having an a !a carte approach.

What I would do is say, off you go to yonder far off hills, straight away. IF you need to come back, you join properly and fully and work to make it work, in everybody's interests, not just your own.

foxtrot101

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Still waiting for an answer.

Why does the UK need to be "Taught a lesson" and what form should this lesson take?

It's not so much been taught a lesson, the UK will be treated very harshly in the negotiations to discourage other countries from wanting to leave too. And it will take the form of access to the single market. This is nothing new, it has been said by a countless number of people at this stage.

FrancieBrady

foxtrot101 wrote: »

It's not so much been taught a lesson, the UK will be treated very harshly in the negotiations to discourage other countries from wanting to leave too. And it take the form of access to the single market. This is nothing new, it has been said a countless number of people at this stage.

And that will be a 'lesson' every body learns even birds - don't **** in a warm nest.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And that will be a 'lesson' every body learns even birds - don't **** in a warm nest.

Sometimes it's better to leave the nest if it's full of your nestmates shít!

VinLieger

foxtrot101 wrote: »

It's not so much been taught a lesson, the UK will be treated very harshly in the negotiations to discourage other countries from wanting to leave too. And it will take the form of access to the single market. This is nothing new, it has been said by a countless number of people at this stage.

They arent going to be treated harshly they are going to be treated fairly in that the simple fact is they cannot have their cake and eat it too. If we all have to subscribe to certain committments for access to the single market then they should too. Theres nothing harsh about that.

Theres a language barrier at work here in that when an english person hears "no" to something theres generally room for maneuver and negotiation, when a German says "no", that's it, there's nothing else that can be done

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37799805

who the fug

VinLieger wrote: »

They arent going to be treated harshly they are going to be treated fairly in that the simple fact is they cannot have their cake and eat it too. If we all have to subscribe to certain committments for access to the single market then they should too. Theres nothing harsh about that.

Theres a language barrier at work here in that when an english person hears "no" to something theres generally room for maneuver and negotiation, when a German says "no", that's it, there's nothing else that can be done

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37799805

You are now confusing Irish No with British No

No means No in Germany and the UK
No means maybe in Ireland
No mean lets piss on the French in the FCO

Anyway all is speculation , till next March.

Peregrinus

VinLieger wrote: »

They arent going to be treated harshly they are going to be treated fairly in that the simple fact is they cannot have their cake and eat it too. If we all have to subscribe to certain committments for access to the single market then they should too. Theres nothing harsh about that.

Theres a language barrier at work here in that when an english person hears "no" to something theres generally room for maneuver and negotiation, when a German says "no", that's it, there's nothing else that can be done

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37799805

Free movement of persons isn't some kind of quid pro quo that's extracted as a price for admission to the single market. It's an intrinsic aspect of the single market. If a shoemaker in Genoa is not free to go and make shoes in Glasgow then, quite simply, shoemakers in Genoa and shoemakers in Glasgow are not operating in a single market.

So if a Brexiter says "We want access to the Single Market! We want immigration controls at the national level!" what the world - and, in particular the EU - hears is "We don't know what we want. We haven't worked it out yet." "Come back when have negotiating position which is not self-contradictory" is the only possible response.

In fairness, Teresa May gets this, and I think the Cabinet collectively has got it. There may still be a few on the Brexit side, though, for whom the penny hasn't dropped.

VinLieger

who the fug wrote: »

You are now confusing Irish No with British No

No means No in Germany and the UK
No means maybe in Ireland
No mean lets piss on the French in the FCO

Anyway all is speculation , till next March.

Did you read the article i linked or just blindly post? Have you ever spent prolonged period in england or around english people? cus they behave exactly the same as us with regards to politeness and negotiating a no cus it means maybe

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Sometimes it's better to leave the nest if it's full of your nestmates shít!

No, it's not. You just clean it up. It's a perfectly good nest and took a lot of time and effort to build. But of course, not everybody contributed wholeheartedly in that build

who the fug

VinLieger wrote: »

Did you read the article i linked or just blindly post? Have you ever spent prolonged period in england or around english people? cus they behave exactly the same as us with regards to politeness and negotiating a no cus it means maybe

Seeing as I have lived in London for near on thirty years , I think I have a fair understanding of them and why we voted out.

Not only English, but Irish, Scots and Welsh People voted out , along with people who heritage is from the sub continent and the West Indies.

Peregrinus

who the fug wrote: »

Seeing as I have lived in London for near on thirty years , I think I have a fair understanding of them and why we voted out.

Not only English, but Irish, Scots and Welsh People voted out , along with people who heritage is from the sub continent and the West Indies.

Gotta point out that London voted overwhelmingly to Remain - almost as strongly as Scotland.

I haven't seen any analysis of the vote by ethnicity but, in general, the more diverse the population of a district, the more likely the district was to vote "remain". This ties in with what you'd expect from previous studies which suggest that the people most likely to express fear or concern about immigration are the people who know, or encounter, few or no immigrants. The more people are affected by immigration, or the more they live in neighbourhoods affected by immigration, the less likely they are to cite it as a negative concern. Make of that what you will.

VinLieger

who the fug wrote: »

Seeing as I have lived in London for near on thirty years , I think I have a fair understanding of them and why we voted out.

Not only English, but Irish, Scots and Welsh People voted out , along with people who heritage is from the sub continent and the West Indies.

Yes many who voted out regardless of race, culture or creed did so thanks to politicians who led the way by lying to them that they could have their cake and eat it too under the mistaken belief that there was room to negotiate

who the fug

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes many who voted out regardless of race, culture or creed did so thanks to politicians who led the way by lying to them that they could have their cake and eat it too under the mistaken belief that there was room to negotiate

Both sides told lies , the campaign to leave were less annoying than the campaign to remain, hence we are out.

Calina

who the fug wrote: »

Both sides told lies , the campaign to leave were less annoying than the campaign to remain, hence we are out.

The campaign to remain highlighted several major risks, including a fall in sterling, and for that they were castigated as Project Fear. THe UK is out because far too many people took 350M for the NHS more seriously than "sterling will fall".

It's not like the leave campaign are even remotely close to fulfilling their promises.

FrancieBrady

who the fug wrote: »

the campaign to leave were less annoying than the campaign to remain

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-campaigns-crown-prosecutors-cps-complaint-a7403161.html

VinLieger

who the fug wrote: »

Both sides told lies , the campaign to leave were less annoying than the campaign to remain, hence we are out.

Ahh so its nothing to do with the pros or cons of either decision and just which side was less annoying? Good to know the leave camp took the whole thing seriously

MrPudding

robindch wrote: »

[...] peculiar combination of naivety and arrogance for which I'm not sure there's even a word in English.

I'm sure the Germans have a word for it. Thye have the awesomest words.

MrP

MrPudding

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that's nice. I spent most of my teenage years in Slough.

I am very sorry for you. I spend most of my working week in Slough, not sure I could survive living here too.

MrP

who the fug

VinLieger wrote: »

Ahh so its nothing to do with the pros or cons of either decision and just which side was less annoying? Good to know the leave camp took the whole thing seriously

They did take things seriously they didn't annoy the electorate to start with, which is vert important if you want to win an election

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

I'm sure the Germans have a word for it. Thye have the awesomest words.

MrP

There clearly is a need for such a word. I propose "brexitry".

Peregrinus

MrPudding wrote: »

I am very sorry for you. I spend most of my working week in Slough, not sure I could survive living here too.

MrP

Somebody has to link to this.

A Dub in Glasgo

who the fug wrote: »

Both sides told lies , the campaign to leave were less annoying than the campaign to remain, hence we are out.

Ahhh, the two sides are as bad as the other argument

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/783193789158481920

MrPudding

Peregrinus wrote: »

There clearly is a need for such a word. I propose "brexitry".

That actually work reasonably well, except I think brexitry would also include gullibility, an unwillingness to educate oneself in pertinent facts and a rejection of reason. I think this is an excellent description of many leave voters (certainly many I met manning a remain stall and in conversation since), but I think the naivety and arrogance of the UK government in it approach to the situation we find ourselves in is slightly different and deserving of its own word.

MrP

who the fug

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Ahhh, the two sides are as bad as the other argument

No it is my, one side is slightly less annoying than the other argument

MrPudding

Peregrinus wrote: »

Somebody has to link to this.

Wow, he hates it more than I do. I guess that fact I come to the trading estate, do a job I love and then immediately leave does somewhat lessen the despair.

MrP

Anita Blow

who the fug wrote: »

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Ahhh, the two sides are as bad as the other argument

No it is my, one side is slightly less annoying than the other argument

So you based your vote on which argument you wanted to hear more? Regardless of how true it was?

The Leave campaign promised 350 million extra per week for the NHS. The was found to be false on two fronts- with the rebate the UK only pays ~200 million per week, and a month after the vote the government announced up to 20 billion in cuts to the NHS by 2021.
The Leave campaign famously trumpeted that the UK could have their cake and eat it too with regard to single market access and immigration control which the EU has shown to be incorrect and non-negotiable.

What major promises from the Remain camp have proven to be false?

Snickers Man

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You put Brexiters in one bucket, you've found a few that meet the stereotype you are looking for (probably to suit your own prejudice) and think of them all as that.

That's very good point! What makes the emerging situation in Britain so interesting is precisely the LACK of common ground between many who voted Brexit. And the fact that some of the more self-confident, nay self-deluded, Brexiters are adamant that their version of Brexit is what was mandated by the referendum.

Some say it was all about immigration--send the Poles and Rumanians home.
Some say it was all about democracy--let's shake off the tyrannical hand of the unelected Commission and go back to the inherent democracy of our monarchy and the House of Lords
Some say it was all about shifting focus from a European market place towards gaining the freedom to trade with the rest of the world.
Some say it was not about "leaving" at all, just taking back sovereignty.

A key question now is what is Britain's ongoing relationship with the Single Market. Some say it is entirely consistent with Brexit that they remain tightly integrated with that market; others, like Mr Farage, say that staying in the single market is "not what we voted for". (In a sense he's right; it's not what they voted for because it's not what they were asked)

The international companies who have established themselves in Britain (Nissan being the most high profile at the moment) absolutely want continued access to the single market on existing terms, or on as near to existing terms as possible. Otherwise, the game has changed utterly.

All the familiar forums in British life (social media, the Question Time program, Andrew Marr on Sunday etc etc) are now discussing What Brexit Means with increasing levels of vitriol and self justification.

The supreme irony is that under British Constitutional Convention (such as it is) there IS a body clearly designated as having the power to decide just what Brexit means and to act accordingly. That is of course Parliament, a fact that was reinforced by a High Court ruling last week. And this has sent some of the most adamant Brexiters into orbit!!!!

At one level I just want to get a big bag of popcorn and watch the bloodbath.
It would be hilarious if it were not so serious.

But I fear, as I have done since the result was announced, that there will be blood over this.