Poppy Middle Class Death Cult

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 07:07PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Not really. The latter is just an elaboration on the former. If someone in a UK workplace asks whether you want a poppy, and you politely explain that it clashes with your beliefs, that will often spark a debate, or at least be seen as unpatriotic.

good point. I don't think I have ever been in the position of being asked that question.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The reason I am saying this is because I expect to wear a poppy without strangers unloading their republican outrage in my direction. And it would be hypocritical to deny that it's equally wrong when it works the other way, against those who choose not to wear the poppy.

that's a perfectly reasonable expectation.

Junkyard Tom · 07-11-2016 07:08PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The only thing I can find that Dara O'Briain has said about the poppy, which is probably a very good summary

Dara O'Briain isn't going to write anything too critical about the shenanigans that surround the poppy - he makes his living from the BBC in Britain.

ednwireland · 07-11-2016 07:48PM

The first world war was about oil

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 08:54PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Dara O'Briain isn't going to write anything too critical about the shenanigans that surround the poppy - he makes his living from the BBC in Britain.

unlike Jon Snow and Robert Fisk.....

Del.Monte · 07-11-2016 09:03PM

ednwireland wrote: »

The first world war was about oil

Where did you pull that one out of?

HellSquirrel · 07-11-2016 09:21PM

At a guess, the derriere.

Or it was sarcasm :P

Roger Hassenforder · 07-11-2016 09:35PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

I don't know where your greater deficiency lies: poor knowledge of history or poor knowledge of statistics.

Let me just accept at face value that your figures for dead British Generals in WWI are correct, ie 78 throughout the entire course of the war.

Now by my perfunctory researches there were 76 divisions of the British Army (not including Empire troops) active throughout World War One.

How many generals in a division?
Well assuming that a general is anyone in rank from Brigadier upwards, there were typically three or four brigades in a division, each commanded by a brigadier with a solitary major general in charge of the overall division. So let's split the difference and say 3.5 brigadiers per division, to account for the differing sizes, this gives us a total of 342 generals acting at divisional level and down. (3.5 brigadiers + 1 Major General for each division).

Of course these were not the only generals. There were also Corps and Army commanders. Added to the fact that there were also seconds-in-command throughout the entire army, some of whom could have been generals. eg. it is entirely conceivable that a major-general commanding a division could have had a brigadier, not specifically attached to any particular brigade, acting as his number two.

Then there were more generals right the way through the back-office structure of the army. Let's be really conservative and say that at any one time there were another 60 generals. There were probably many more but let's actually cut the number to 58 just for neatness.

That gives us a figure for 400 generals operating in the British Army AT ANY ONE TIME!

Of those 78 died, throughout the entire duration of the war. And you say it was more dangerous being a general than a private?

Even given that it is statistically highly invalid to compare a sample size so small against the huge sample size of numbers of junior officers and other ranks lost it looks to be comparatively safe to me to have been an officer.

I don't know where your greater deficiency lies: poor reasoning, logic and train of thought, an even poorer knowledge of statistics, or the lot combined!

Seeing as your garrulous rejoinder is 4 days late, I'll remind you of the post you seem to be trying to rebut:

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

The simple fact remains, if you were working class, you were more likely to come home.

So before my monocle fogs up, and using your own stats, I get 19.5% death rate.....slightly lower than my 20%...
(78/400)*100

whereas the working class fatality rate was ~12%

now, can you recall from your statistics lessons, what probability is?

Snickers Man · 08-11-2016 04:47AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

now, can you recall from your statistics lessons, what probability is?

Basic statistics and probability theory would assure you that you cannot make meaningful comparisons in percentage terms between such hugely different sample sizes as a few hundred generals on one hand and the million plus men of other ranks who served in the war.

And to manipulate them to conclude that "you were more likely to come home if you were working class" is nonsense.

You were more likely to BE working class in the Britain of 100 years ago. That didn't have anything to do with your chances of surviving the war.

Forget Blackadder; you're operating at the same intellectual plane as Lieutenant George. With a bing and a bong and a buzz buzz buzz

Snickers Man · 08-11-2016 04:49AM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

At a guess, the derriere.

Or it was sarcasm :P

No. He's got a point.

Ask yourself why Britain suddenly went to war with its longtime ally Turkey.And look at what it did to Turkey after the war.

Curious, isn't it?

Roger Hassenforder · 08-11-2016 09:25AM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Basic statistics and probability theory would assure you that you cannot make meaningful comparisons in percentage terms between such hugely different sample sizes as a few hundred generals on one hand and the million plus men of other ranks who served in the war.

And to manipulate them to conclude that "you were more likely to come home if you were working class" is nonsense.

You were more likely to BE working class in the Britain of 100 years ago. That didn't have anything to do with your chances of surviving the war.

Forget Blackadder; you're operating at the same intellectual plane as Lieutenant George. With a bing and a bong and a buzz buzz buzz

o dear
'probability' has little to do with sample size. Your conflating 'confidence' with your metric. I'm manipulating nothing, just merely presenting the facts, that dont fit in with a lot of lefty nonsense.

from wiki:
"Probability is the measure of the likelihood that an event will occur, the higher the probability of an event, the more certain that the event will occur.
let death be the event.

If fatalities among lower ranks was 12% (.12)
and fatalities among higher ranks 19.5% (your figure!) (.19)
so which event is more likely to occur for a private V. the same event for General?

If you are trying to argue, there was greater numbers of privates killed, you'd be making sense, and there'd be disagreement. Alas...

while I'm soaring in my intellectual 'plane, you're rummaging in an intellectual trench!

now tally-ho pip-pip and Bernard's your uncle.

LordSutch · 08-11-2016 10:58AM

Leaving all the bile filled sniping & anti British nastiness aside for one monument, there are of course many people who wear poppies here in Ireland as a mark of respect for those Irish/British) men who died in the Great War period (1914-1918) & WWII.

You can argue till the cows come home as to how much you hate the British, and what they did wrong in this campaign or that one, but whatever decisions were made doesn't alter the fact that loved ones died in their tens of thousands, (50 thousand Irish) so we remember them with the most apt symbol 'the poppy' which grows on that on that crater filled landscape (as noted by a Canadian general) in the years after the guns had fallen silent....

The imagery is potent if you look at the battlefields of WWI.
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/article/remembrance-poppy.htm

lawred2 · 08-11-2016 11:12AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Leaving all the bile filled sniping & anti British nastiness aside for one monument, there are of course many people who wear poppies here in Ireland as a mark of respect for those Irish/British) men who died in the Great War period (1914-1918) & WWII.

You can argue till the cows come home as to how much you hate the British, and what they did wrong in this campaign or that one, but whatever decisions were made doesn't alter the fact that loved ones died in their tens of thousands, (50 thousand Irish) so we remember them with the most apt symbol 'the poppy' which grows on that on that crater filled landscape (as noted by a Canadian general) in the years after the guns had fallen silent....

The imagery is potent if you look at the battlefields of WWI.
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/article/remembrance-poppy.htm

That's nothing but plain old romanticism

There was nothing 'great' about that war. It was a murderous folly.

LordSutch · 08-11-2016 11:37AM

lawred2 wrote: »

There was nothing 'great' about that war. It was a murderous folly.

I totally agree.

The 'Great' of course refers to a Big/Large War (the war to end all wars) so they said :cool:

bigpink · 08-11-2016 11:49AM

Wear a green flower so or symbol

lawred2 · 08-11-2016 11:54AM

bigpink wrote: »

Wear a green flower so or symbol

or just wear nothing

Walter H Price · 08-11-2016 11:55AM

lawred2 wrote: »

There was nothing 'great' about that war. It was a murderous folly.

100% spot on , i have allot of respect for my Great Great Grandfather , he went to fight to feed his family in a time of serious poverty in Ireland , he could have turned to criminality or drink like many others in the slums but didn't and that is commendable. He won medals for bravery for saving the lives of 3 young Englishmen in his regiment , and i was proud of him when i learned that.

But there was nothing great about the first world war , it was a pissing contest between hypocritical aristocrats from the same poxy family , that left millions dead and Europe destabilized and in ruin for generations.How it is still shrouded in romanticism and ,courage an valor is beyond. many were not brave in signing up the were either foolhardy ,desperate or conscripted and while individuals may have shown great courage in the face of the worst mass slaughter in human history , the war and it reason for coming about was far from courageous it was vanity and hypocrisy personified.

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-11-2016 12:13PM

Every year we have these threads and every year people confuse the word "great" with the word GREAT!!!!

Del.Monte · 08-11-2016 12:27PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

100% spot on , i have allot of respect for my Great Great Grandfather , he went to fight to feed his family in a time of serious poetry in Ireland , he could have turned to criminality or drink like many others in the slums but didn't and that is commendable. He won medals for bravery for saving the lives of 3 young Englishmen in his regiment , and i was proud of him when i learned that.

But there was nothing great about the first world war , it was a pissing contest between hypocritical aristocrats from the same poxy family , that left millions dead and Europe destabilized and in ruin for generations.How it is still shrouded in romanticism and ,courage an valor is beyond. many were not brave in signing up the were either foolhardy ,desperate or conscripted and while individuals may have shown great courage in the face of the worst mass slaughter in human history , the war and it reason for coming about was far from courageous it was vanity and hypocrisy personified.

Tom Kettle and Francis Ledwidge?

Walter H Price · 08-11-2016 12:32PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Tom Kettle and Francis Ledwidge?

the old dyslexia and no spell check is a gift :P

HellSquirrel · 08-11-2016 12:53PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

100% spot on , i have allot of respect for my Great Great Grandfather , he went to fight to feed his family in a time of serious poverty in Ireland , he could have turned to criminality or drink like many others in the slums but didn't and that is commendable. He won medals for bravery for saving the lives of 3 young Englishmen in his regiment , and i was proud of him when i learned that.

But there was nothing great about the first world war , it was a pissing contest between hypocritical aristocrats from the same poxy family , that left millions dead and Europe destabilized and in ruin for generations.How it is still shrouded in romanticism and ,courage an valor is beyond. many were not brave in signing up the were either foolhardy ,desperate or conscripted and while individuals may have shown great courage in the face of the worst mass slaughter in human history , the war and it reason for coming about was far from courageous it was vanity and hypocrisy personified.

It was and it was horrendous. And the reason it was called the Great War wasn't to laud it but because it was the biggest mass slaughter of a generation of young men from many countries (and young men and women from the countries in the core of the conflict). It was aptly described as hell, as the writings of many soldiers and people living it shows.

But there's no reason not to be proud of your great-great grandfather. No matter how it came about, there were millions of young men who were faced with a horror that we can only imagine and read about, and faced it bravely. Many of them never came home, and I don't think it really matters if they were working class or upper class. Millions of families, rich and poor, mourned - and then mourned again when the Spanish Flu swept through to take millions more. It also didn't care about class, and took people of every background.

It was supposed to be a "never again" descriptor. There would never be a war to rival it in terms of human cost.

sondagefaux · 08-11-2016 03:14PM

Jesus wept!

tipptom · 08-11-2016 03:21PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Jesus wept!

That about sums it up these days.

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-11-2016 03:23PM

tipptom wrote: »

That about sums it up these days.

Did you ever find a post of mine that condemned Mclean over his poppy wearing?

It seems you tend to disappear a lot when called out on your lies.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 08-11-2016 11:13PM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Jesus wept!

That's hilarious.

NIMAN · 09-11-2016 12:46AM

I can imagine the meeting of all the production assistants before that show went on air!

"right, have you given all the guests their poppy?"

"I have, well except for the cookie monster, cos he's only a puppet".

"Sweet Jesus, get a poppy on that puppet now, before the internet goes into meltdown about his/her/its disgraceful behaviour".

Badly Drunk Boy · 09-11-2016 01:46AM

Aisling Bea didn't wear one tonight on 8 Out Of 10 Cats in her new job as captain, and Jimmy Carr just had a red dot thing, rather that the cheap, gaudy things that most people wear. Does anyone wear actual poppies (or do poppies really look that bad)?

NIMAN · 09-11-2016 04:51AM

I was watching MOTD last weekend, and considering how much grief James McClean gets from the British football fan, was shocked to see next to no poppies being worn by 99% of fans everytime there was a crowd shot.

Junkyard Tom · 09-11-2016 04:54AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

...

Do you think the Cookie Monster should have worn a Poppy or not?

jimmy blevins · 09-11-2016 07:14AM

The poppy is now on the masthead of the daily telegraph, what ever it's original meaning the poppy has been utterly devalued and now it's nothing but pop culture tabloid jingoism.

jimmy blevins · 09-11-2016 07:21AM

The cookie monster, James McLean and John snow seem to be the only people immune to the poppy media nazis.

Poppy Middle Class Death Cult

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