Poppy Middle Class Death Cult

07-11-2016 02:16PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what changed, was that around the turn of the century, there was a growing concern that people were forgetting what remembrance day was all about and the mass slaughter of WWI was being forgotten. This was around the time that the last few veterans died off (I think the last one died around 2009). iirc, this was around the time that the general observance of a two minutes silence at 11am on the 11th November came in to being as well.

It was also the time when the armed forces suffered the highest number of deaths since the Falklands

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 02:32PM

riffmongous wrote: »

It was also the time when the armed forces suffered the highest number of deaths since the Falklands

It was probably post gulf war and the Balkans, but before the invasion of Iraq.

It was in Blair's era though.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:09PM

Beefy78 wrote: »

On TV, certainly. And I agree with you that the faux outrage in the media that has made it an expectation is sickening. In reality though a small minority of people in the UK wear one. And no one gets outraged about it, or even bats an eyelid.

Poppy Outrage is a far bigger thing in Ireland than Poppy Wearing is in the UK.

Like to see you back that one up?
Where is the outrage in Ireland about Poppies?
Its laughable that you would try and turn this back on Irish people but I can see that it is the usual deflection modus that is always used against Irish people that it is your fault "for the atrocitys that was committed against you"?

The people who have always wore poppies in Ireland continue to wear them without any fear of harassment and abuse,threats, death threats,criminal damage that Irish people have to put up with in England where they are regularly intimidated in to buying and wearing a poppy because of this fear of being singled out.

All to support British soldiers who have who have committed atrocity's in Ireland and elsewhere post WW11 which is like asking a victim of a horrific violent and sustained home invasion to donate money towards the criminals that perpetrated the crimes on them because they have fallen on hard times.

07-11-2016 05:14PM

It's probably been said, but in middle class neighbourhoods, nobody knows about the League of Ireland, and there are never any water charge protests.

There seems to be a strong class element to both hobbies.

edit; whoops. This isn't the fancy areas thread. Sure I'll just leave it here anyway.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 05:16PM

tipptom wrote: »

[/B]

The people who have always wore poppies in Ireland continue to wear them without any fear of harassment and abuse,threats, death threats,criminal damage that Irish people have to put up with in England where they are regularly intimidated in to buying and wearing a poppy because of this fear of being singled out.

err, care to back that one up?

There are plenty of Irish people on here living in England, lets ask then how many death threats they've received.

Walter H Price · 07-11-2016 05:20PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's probably been said, but in middle class neighbourhoods, nobody knows about the League of Ireland, and there are never any water charge protests.

There seems to be a strong class element to both hobbies.

I'd agree that no one gave a rats about the Water Wingers but pleanty of LOI fans in middle class areas Bohs have huge support from the Navan Road Glasnevin etc.. , you see plenty of people heading back to Ballincollig and Douglas after Cork city games .. i'll give you not a massive following but definitely more intrest in LOI football then in Water Charges or the politics of Paul Murphy the PBP ,AAA or Sinn Fein

Lt Dan · 07-11-2016 05:21PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what changed, was that around the turn of the century, there was a growing concern that people were forgetting what remembrance day was all about and the mass slaughter of WWI was being forgotten. This was around the time that the last few veterans died off (I think the last one died around 2009). iirc, this was around the time that the general observance of a two minutes silence at 11am on the 11th November came in to being as well.

Why is it a growing concern? Because public opinion regarding the activities of the armed forces and the politicians behind those decisions for the past decade are not too popular?

World War 1 was a disastrous and pointless war. It is pure nonsense that people are waffling about it being about freedom. What? to stop another nation threatening the Colonial rights of Africa? (Okay it was more than that) Politically, it was nothing to be proud of. Politicians of the Allies (not just Britain) made it worse with the Treaty afterwards - Gave Jerry excuse for Round 2.

If politicians stayed away from these ceremonies and did not give speeches, then fair enough. After all, young men gave the ultimate sacrifice for their nation and was lied to and poorly managed in battle by officers who sat safely miles behind the trenches.

You have to admit that the latest trend is linked with a new found chest thumping Nationalism , especially in light of Brexit. The FA instance on wearing the poppy in contravention of FIFA warnings will will be seen as making a political statement - a defiance that they are English and will not be told what to do - rah rah rah

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-11-2016 05:30PM

tipptom wrote: »

Like to see you back that one up?
Where is the outrage in Ireland about Poppies?
Its laughable that you would try and turn this back on Irish people but I can see that it is the usual deflection modus that is always used against Irish people that it is your fault "for the atrocitys that was committed against you"?

The people who have always wore poppies in Ireland continue to wear them without any fear of harassment and abuse,threats, death threats,criminal damage that Irish people have to put up with in England where they are regularly intimidated in to buying and wearing a poppy because of this fear of being singled out.

All to support British soldiers who have who have committed atrocity's in Ireland and elsewhere post WW11 which is like asking a victim of a horrific violent and sustained home invasion to donate money towards the criminals that perpetrated the crimes on them because they have fallen on hard times.

You have evidence if multiples of Irish people being intimidated into buying a poppy and forced to wear it?

Please don't link the footballer as your sole example it's getting boring at this stage everytime he is bought forward to make this point.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 05:33PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Why is it a growing concern? Because public opinion regarding the activities of the armed forces and the politicians behind those decisions for the past decade are not too popular?

World War 1 was a disastrous and pointless war. It is pure nonsense that people are waffling about it being about freedom. What? to stop another nation threatening the Colonial rights of Africa? (Okay it was more than that) Politically, it was nothing to be proud of. Politicians of the Allies (not just Britain) made it worse with the Treaty afterwards - Gave Jerry excuse for Round 2.

If politicians stayed away from these ceremonies and did not give speeches, then fair enough. After all, young men gave the ultimate sacrifice for their nation and was lied to and poorly managed in battle by officers who sat safely miles behind the trenches.

You have to admit that the latest trend is linked with a new found chest thumping Nationalism , especially in light of Brexit. The FA instance on wearing the poppy in contravention of FIFA warnings will will be seen as making a political statement - a defiance that they are English and will not be told what to do - rah rah rah

Does anybody on After Hours know there difference between Britain and England?:rolleyes:

to the Irish, it was a pointless war where young men were lied to, joined up and got slaughtered.

To the English, Scottish and Welsh, the majority of those young men had no choice, they were conscripted.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:33PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

err, care to back that one up?

There are plenty of Irish people on here living in England, lets ask then how many death threats they've received.

I have plenty of friends in work who have been harassed and bullied in to wearing poppies because every one else is wearing them and have been called IRA supporters when they have refused.

Check out James McCleans death threats.

Now care to point out where "the poppy outrage is worse in Ireland than England?

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 05:34PM

tipptom wrote: »

I have plenty of friends in work who have been harassed and bullied in to wearing poppies because every one else is wearing them and have been called IRA supporters when they have refused.

ok, I believe you.

Snickers Man · 07-11-2016 05:37PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the original post was correct. there was no need for a correction. Junior officers had a higher death rate per capita than other ranks.

Not a "correction". More of an "expansion" or "clarification". There's a difference.

I didn't contradict what you said at all.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:41PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

You have evidence if multiples of Irish people being intimidated into buying a poppy and forced to wear it?

Please don't link the footballer as your sole example it's getting boring at this stage everytime he is bought forward to make this point.

What?
You embarrassed by the way you and your Squaddie mates on here went after him with your outrage when he refused to be bowed down by your vitriol in to supporting murderers?

I know loads of people in England who have been harassed and bullied in to wearing a poppy in England and has become worse in recent times.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:44PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ok, I believe you.

Don't care if you do or don't.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 05:49PM

tipptom wrote: »

I know loads of people in England who have been harassed and bullied in to wearing a poppy in England and has become worse in recent times.

I've just got back from ten days in London and didn't wear a Poppy once. I must be lucky to be alive.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:49PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's probably been said, but in middle class neighbourhoods, nobody knows about the League of Ireland, and there are never any water charge protests.

There seems to be a strong class element to both hobbies.

edit; whoops. This isn't the fancy areas thread. Sure I'll just leave it here anyway.

You really need to have a chat with yourself but then again I would guess you have to do that a lot with yourself anyway.

ronnie085 · 07-11-2016 05:50PM

Sorry for going off topic, reading this thread got me interested in the history of WW1, never really looked into it but seems to be a lot more to it than the usual stories of defending poor catholic Belgium etc. any good book recommendations?

tipptom · 07-11-2016 05:56PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've just got back from ten days in London and didn't wear a Poppy once. I must be lucky to be alive.

Your not Irish.

Snickers Man · 07-11-2016 06:01PM

lawred2 wrote: »

well they had two options

over the top and get shot by enemy guns

or turn around and get shot by 'friendly' guns

In some cases, such as this notorious one at Gallipoli the teenage officers from nice public schools who shot their own men to "Stem the retirement" of men who had seen their comrades and officers shot down all around them, were rewarded with the Victoria Cross.

Of course when the Germans did that sort of thing it was only typical of the beastly Hun and not the way we civilised people do things.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 06:05PM

tipptom wrote: »

Your not Irish.

So you think maybe the big sign I was wearing saying "I'm not Irish" is what saved my life?

Could be, I guess.

tipptom · 07-11-2016 06:12PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you think maybe the big sign I was wearing saying "I'm not Irish" is what saved my life?

Could be, I guess.

Would say the anti Irish attitude was a dead giveaway.

07-11-2016 06:20PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you think maybe the big sign I was wearing saying "I'm not Irish" is what saved my life?

Could be, I guess.

Do you believe Dara O'Briain and Jon Snow, for example, are lying about the the pressure that they say exists around the wearing of the poppy, and are they also lying about the abuse they say they received as a consequence of not wearing the poppy?

I wear a poppy because of a family connection to the two wars, and I have occasionally been called a west-Brit for doing so in Ireland.

But I also know British and Irish people who come in for abuse for openly disagreeing with the poppy.

It isn't that you'll be abused on the street for not wearing it, but in the workplace and at social events, for example, registering any disagreement with the symbolism of the poppy can be seen as bad form. Pub conversations on the topic can be heated and pretty bitter. Facebook, as always, is merciless. I'm saying this as someone who lived in the UK, as I'm sure you did.

LordSutch · 07-11-2016 06:30PM

...very similar to you above, re wearing the poppy in Ireland re family connections, while not 'having to wear one' on tv due to poppy fascism.

Snickers Man · 07-11-2016 06:33PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Nope, another myth perpetuated.
Too much BLackadder I suspect, or else you're confused with WW2. That "Lions led by Donkeys" guff is responsible for most of the nonsense.

Casualty rate among the higher ranks was about 20%.

Of 78 British generals KIA on active service in WW1:

34 Generals were killed by shellfire = 43%
22 Generals were killed by small arms fire = 28% (of which at least 12 were killed by snipers)
3 Generals were drowned - 1 accidently, 1 inadvertently poisoned himself, 1 died from cholera,
1 died as a result of a flying accident and 1 died from accidental injuries.
(Bloody Red Tabs)

In the Battle of Loos (1915)more British generals were killed than in the entire Second World War

The simple fact remains, if you were working class, you were more likely to come home.

I don't know where your greater deficiency lies: poor knowledge of history or poor knowledge of statistics.

Let me just accept at face value that your figures for dead British Generals in WWI are correct, ie 78 throughout the entire course of the war.

Now by my perfunctory researches there were 76 divisions of the British Army (not including Empire troops) active throughout World War One.

How many generals in a division?
Well assuming that a general is anyone in rank from Brigadier upwards, there were typically three or four brigades in a division, each commanded by a brigadier with a solitary major general in charge of the overall division. So let's split the difference and say 3.5 brigadiers per division, to account for the differing sizes, this gives us a total of 342 generals acting at divisional level and down. (3.5 brigadiers + 1 Major General for each division).

Of course these were not the only generals. There were also Corps and Army commanders. Added to the fact that there were also seconds-in-command throughout the entire army, some of whom could have been generals. eg. it is entirely conceivable that a major-general commanding a division could have had a brigadier, not specifically attached to any particular brigade, acting as his number two.

Then there were more generals right the way through the back-office structure of the army. Let's be really conservative and say that at any one time there were another 60 generals. There were probably many more but let's actually cut the number to 58 just for neatness.

That gives us a figure for 400 generals operating in the British Army AT ANY ONE TIME!

Of those 78 died, throughout the entire duration of the war. And you say it was more dangerous being a general than a private?

Even given that it is statistically highly invalid to compare a sample size so small against the huge sample size of numbers of junior officers and other ranks lost it looks to be comparatively safe to me to have been an officer.

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-11-2016 06:43PM

tipptom wrote: »

What?
You embarrassed by the way you and your Squaddie mates on here went after him with your outrage when he refused to be bowed down by your vitriol in to supporting murderers?

Please show just ONE single post where I disagreed with his decision or retract that scurrilous accusation.

I know loads of people in England who have been harassed and bullied in to wearing a poppy in England and has become worse in recent times.

Of course you do

Timberrrrrrrr · 07-11-2016 06:45PM

tipptom wrote: »

Your not Irish.

I'm living in the UK, I haven't worn mine for the last few days as it's on my other jacket, not a peep out of anyone

FYI I'm English but have an Irish accent and in a town where very few people know me or my past.

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 06:46PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Do you believe Dara O'Briain and Jon Snow, for example, are lying about the the pressure that they say exists around the wearing of the poppy, and are they also lying about the abuse they say they received as a consequence of not wearing the poppy?

I wear a poppy because of a family connection to the two wars, and I have occasionally been called a west-Brit for doing so in Ireland.

But I also know British and Irish people who come in for abuse for openly disagreeing with the poppy.

It isn't that you'll be abused on the street for not wearing it, but in the workplace and at social events, for example, registering any disagreement with the symbolism of the poppy can be seen as bad form. Pub conversations on the topic can be heated and pretty bitter. Facebook, as always, is merciless. I'm saying this as someone who lived in the UK, as I'm sure you did.

The only thing I can find that Dara O'Briain has said about the poppy, which is probably a very good summary:-

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/nov/13/live-q-and-a-dara-o-briain

sean7889 asks:
You wear a poppy on screen all the time, have you ever worn an easter lily on British television?

Dara O Briain replies:

Actually I've only wore the poppy once, but well done on escalating that one episode of "the Apprentice". In fact I've been on the telly twice in the last week without a poppy, once because of a pre-recorded show, and the other time because we all just forgot until the show was in train. Number of complaints about this: zero.
When I did wear the poppy last year, I made a point of bringing it up on a few Irish chat shows to guage where people stood and we had quite an interesting debate. The majority of Irish now seem seemed to have no problem with it.
My own view: I think it is a profound mark of respect for the War Dead, but having grown up abroad I feel it is your tribute and respectfully step aside. I suppose it might be like any of us wearing the Stars and Stripes if we lived in America. And yes, I know, that 50,000 Irish died in WW1.
I also think that a symbol as profound shouldn't be worn just because a wardrobe lady ran over to you in a panic before "this Morning" or "The One Show".
Trust me, any stance you take will lead to criticism.

On your other points, there is a big difference between getting abuse for not wearing one and openly disagreeing with wearing it. Not that it really matters, no one should get abuse on the subject, but argue in a pub about who is better, Messi or Ronaldo and you'll likely get abuse

Fratton Fred · 07-11-2016 06:49PM

tipptom wrote: »

Would say the anti Irish attitude was a dead giveaway.

aah, the old "He's not Irish so we can't call him a West Brit, lets call him anti Irish" retort.

Bravo sir, bravo.

07-11-2016 06:54PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

On your other points, there is a big difference between getting abuse for not wearing one and openly disagreeing with wearing it.

Not really. The latter is just an elaboration on the former. If someone in a UK workplace asks whether you want a poppy, and you politely explain that it clashes with your beliefs, that will often spark a debate, or at least be seen as unpatriotic.

The reason I am saying this is because I expect to wear a poppy without strangers unloading their republican outrage in my direction. And it would be hypocritical to deny that it's equally wrong when it works the other way, against those who choose not to wear the poppy.

sesswhat · 07-11-2016 07:06PM

It must be very disappointing for some people when they find nobody gives a **** what they wear/don't wear.

Poppy Middle Class Death Cult

Comments