Louise O Neill on rape culture.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:43PM

Specialun wrote:

Mcgregor will be on fighting again soon so they can go back sucking him off

I'm just gonna go ahead and assume the context of that sentence suggests that it's against his will.

MichaelScarn · 06-11-2016 11:44PM

There are 2,478,435 women and girls of all ages in Ireland. If 40% of those females have been sexually assaulted that is 991,374 victims.

There are 1,929,532 males in Ireland (excluding the 0-14 age bracket).

That means 984,061.32 men have committed sexual assault. That figure will lower as there are repeat offenders. Even still that figure is implausabily high in my opinion.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:46PM

SneakyDoyle wrote:

The fact that some of ye see this as fit subject for humour is f*ckin' abominable, and it's a testament to the fact that rape culture is alive and well. The ignorance is scandalous

It isn't

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-11-2016 11:46PM

SneakyDoyle wrote: »

The fact that some of ye see this as fit subject for humour is f*ckin' abominable, and it's a testament to the fact that rape culture is alive and well. The ignorance is scandalous

Funny joke :

A defendant was on trial for murder. There was strong evidence indicating guilt, but there was no corpse.
In the defense's closing statement the lawyer, knowing that his client would probably be convicted, resorted to a trick:
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I have a surprise for you all," the lawyer said as he looked at his watch. "Within one minute, the person presumed dead in this case will walk into this courtroom."
He looked toward the courtroom door. The jurors, somewhat stunned, all looked on eagerly. A minute passed. Nothing happened.
Finally the lawyer said, "Actually, I made up the previous statement. But you all looked on with anticipation. I therefore put it to you that there is reasonable doubt in this case as to whether anyone was killed and insist that you return a verdict of not guilty."
The jury, clearly confused, retired to deliberate. A few minutes later, the jury returned and pronounced a verdict of guilty.
"But how?" inquired the lawyer. "You must have had some doubt, I saw all of you stare at the door."
The jury foreman replied: "Oh, we did look, but your client didn't."

Well, not great, but slightly funny. And OK. But....its about murder. Is it OK to joke about murder but not rape ?

ash23 · 06-11-2016 11:47PM

ligerdub wrote: »

I know it's supported. It doesn't make it correct.

Accusers are believed without question. So if the accuser is lying the accused is ****ed. That's ridiculous.

They actually aren't. Some statistics given on the programme showed that very few reported cases make it to prosecution stage because of a lack of evidence and of the ones that do, very few result in a conviction.
It was discussed quite in depth with a barrister who explained that the rape/assault must be proved beyond reasonable doubt for a conviction and as a result some guilty people do go free.

Dyr · 06-11-2016 11:48PM

Wibbs wrote: »

- if I had been beaten up "several times" when I was drunk, yes I would have a major issue with those who beat me up and they would be directly responsible for the beatings, but I would think to myself "hang on, maybe I shouldn't get so drunk that being beaten up becomes a "thing" in my life"..

To use a term that will trigger every gentle soul in a ten mile radius "you're not a victim, you're a volunteer"

Widdershins · 06-11-2016 11:48PM

SneakyDoyle wrote: »

The fact that some of ye see this as fit subject for humour is f*ckin' abominable, and it's a testament to the fact that rape culture is alive and well. The ignorance is scandalous

People joke about dark subjects for a number of reasons. It's far from condoning the subject matter.

maudgonner · 06-11-2016 11:50PM

MichaelScarn wrote: »

There are 2,478,435 women and girls of all ages in Ireland. If 40% of those females have been sexually assaulted that is 991,374 victims.

There are 1,929,532 males in Ireland (excluding the 0-14 age bracket).

That means 984,061.32 men have committed sexual assault. That figure will lower as there are repeat offenders. Even still that figure is implausabily high in my opinion.

Seriously? How likely do you think it is that an abuser will assault one man/woman and then suddenly have a Damascene conversion and vow never to do it again?

Isn't it far more plausible that an abuser will abuse more than one person? The figure would be considerably, considerably lower than what you've suggested.

mzungu · 06-11-2016 11:52PM

SneakyDoyle wrote: »

The fact that some of ye see this as fit subject for humour is f*ckin' abominable, and it's a testament to the fact that rape culture is alive and well. The ignorance is scandalous

Louise O'Neill herself partook in similar shenanigans with her tweet. Is she a part of rape culture too?

professore · 06-11-2016 11:52PM

MichaelScarn wrote: »

There are 2,478,435 women and girls of all ages in Ireland. If 40% of those females have been sexually assaulted that is 991,374 victims.

There are 1,929,532 males in Ireland (excluding the 0-14 age bracket).

That means 984,061.32 men have committed sexual assault. That figure will lower as there are repeat offenders. Even still that figure is implausabily high in my opinion.

I would be outraged as would any of my male friends, if any of my female (or male) friends were sexually assaulted, and would certainly take it very seriously. Why hide it? Hiding it helps it to continue.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:53PM

ash23 wrote:

They actually aren't. Some statistics given on the programme showed that very few reported cases make it to prosecution stage because of a lack of evidence and of the ones that do, very few result in a conviction. It was discussed quite in depth with a barrister who explained that the rape/assault must be proved beyond reasonable doubt for a conviction and as a result some guilty people do go free.

I'm not even going as far as court cases in this context. I'm speaking purely from the point of view of what happens within the university.

johnnyskeleton · 06-11-2016 11:53PM

ED E wrote: »

I'd normally claim to be very tired of the Feminist turned Feminazi(some, not all) movement thats built up of late but this really is a valid point. The number of "lads" (prepubescent boys at best really) who still think its ok to have a grope or a slap as a woman passes in a pub is crazy.

No, most of them won't turn into rapists, but its part of the spectrum and part of the problem.

What about women who slap men on the ass? Is that part of rape culture or just a statisical anomaly?

MichaelScarn · 06-11-2016 11:54PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Seriously? How likely do you think it is that an abuser will assault one man/woman and then suddenly have a Damascene conversion and vow never to do it again?

Isn't it far more plausible that an abuser will abuse more than one person?

What? I explicitly made that point in my post.

"That figure will lower as there are repeat offenders".

It is more plausible, and I believe empirically too, that there will be repeat offenders. That will lower the figure, as I said, but there is still an absurdly high amount of sexual assault perpetrators if the 4 in 10 stats are to be believed

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:55PM

professore wrote:

I would be outraged as would any of my male friends, if any of my female (or male) friends were sexually assaulted, and would certainly take it very seriously. Why hide it? Hiding it helps it to continue.

Hide what?

SneakyDoyle · 06-11-2016 11:59PM

Widdershins wrote: »

People joke about dark subjects for a number of reasons. It's far from condoning the subject matter.

I wasn't suggesting that it condones the subject matter. I was suggesting that the casual dismissal of rape culture through lazy sarcasm and misogynistic humour is an ironical symptom of rape culture.

That said, I disagree with you nonetheless. Racist Jokes don't condone racism, they are racism. Rape Jokes don't condone rape, they are part of Rape culture.

The_Kew_Tour · 07-11-2016 12:00AM

Personally cant stand her ad think she is a proper self obsessed famer, but the figures for sexual assault on women is scary.

No woman should ever feel in such danger

me_right_one · 07-11-2016 12:03AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hang on a cotton picking second.. How in god's name does one not realise one has been assaulted? In any manner?

Exactly. Unbelievably, its been mentioned by at least two posters on here. And IMO this is the root of the entire problem - definitions.

Not knowing you were sexually assaulted, but then deciding that you were, only serves to water down the real issue of rape. Its like saying you are a habitually safe driver, but then they lower the speed limit and suddenly your usual speed is too fast - therefore, you *must* now be a dangerous driver.

So, 1) There is no doubt that ash23 and Funnyonion were sexually assaulted - but they were not raped. There is a substantial degree of difference. However, I am sorry it happened to you both.

2) Somebody mentioned there that once sex has been ok'd, it a kind of "opt-out" system from then on. That was a very good way of putting it, and in ash23's case, I can see where the assaulter might have misunderstood the situation. He was still wrong, but my reading of it would be that he did not deliberately *intend* to hurt ash, he perhaps thought there was a romantic relationship when there actually wasnt. Still doesnt excuse him, but at least it might explain his actions. Point being, it seems he wasnt acting out of some "culture" that defines its identity on raping people.

3) There is also no doubt that there is no such thing as an acceptance of rape, OR sexual assault in this country. In fact, the very opposite is the case. This thread is testament to that. Rapes happen, but there is no rape "culture". Simple as.

ZeroThreat · 07-11-2016 12:05AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Exactly. Unbelievably, its been mentioned by at least two posters on here. And IMO this is the root of the entire problem - definitions.

Not knowing you were sexually assaulted, but then deciding that you were, only serves to water down the real issue of rape. Its like saying you are a habitually safe driver, but then they lower the speed limit and suddenly your usual speed is too fast - therefore, you *must* now be a dangerous driver.

So, 1) There is no doubt that ash23 and widdershins were sexually assaulted - but they were not raped. There is a substantial degree of difference. However, I am sorry it happened to you both.

2) Somebody mentioned there that once sex has been ok'd, it a kind of "opt-out" system from then on. That was a very good way of putting it, and in ash23's case, I can see where the assaulter might have misunderstood the situation. He was still wrong, but my reading of it would be that he did not deliberately *intend* to hurt ash, he perhaps thought there was a romantic relationship when there actually wasnt. Still doesnt excuse him, but at least it might explain his actions. Point being, it seems he wasnt acting out of some "culture" that defines its identity on raping people.

3) There is also no doubt that there is no such thing as an acceptance of rape, OR sexual assault in this country. In fact, the very opposite is the case. This thread is testament to that. Rapes happen, but there is no rape "culture". Simple as.

Maybe this millennial snowflake needs to travel to India and do a documentary on their culture towards women.

nullzero · 07-11-2016 12:09AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What about women who slap men on the ass? Is that part of rape culture or just a statisical anomaly?

In my youth I had older women in several jobs grab slap and pinch my ass and it was all great craic and wasn't I lucky to be complimented in such a manner?

I've also had it happen in night clubs, where I have also had my crotch grabbed by women (if one sees the other do this they all try to have a grab typically) and you're expected to laugh it off, and I had been told to lighten up for moving grabbing women's hands away.

Personally I've never groped a woman in such a manner, I wouldn't dream of it, but the double standards are incredible. A man or a woman who is of the opinion that groping is OK can be categorized as a moron and socially inept.

Rape culture as a concept is a meme born of the modern obsession with the constant need to categorize all human behavior in the most reductive manner possible, let's all get offended by everything put our fingers in our ears close our eyes and shout "la la la" anytime anybody points out the flawed logic being put forward.

FortySeven · 07-11-2016 12:09AM

2361 sexual offences reported to garda in 2015.

Women's aid website.

Hardly an epidemic?

Widdershins · 07-11-2016 12:12AM

SneakyDoyle wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that it condones the subject matter. I was suggesting that the casual dismissal of rape culture through lazy sarcasm and misogynistic humour is an ironical symptom of rape culture.

That said, I disagree with you nonetheless. Racist Jokes don't condone racism, they are racism. Rape Jokes don't condone rape, they are part of Rape culture.

The tone of that poster's joke and the tone of a racist joke are entirely different. It was clearly sarcastic yes and understandably so, the ideas being spouted by Louise being so offensive as to be entirely impossible and unthinkable for many men. This whole conversation probably have innocent men on edge and on the defensive. Comments like yours rub salt into the wound.

Connacht2KXX · 07-11-2016 12:13AM

SneakyDoyle wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting that it condones the subject matter. I was suggesting that the casual dismissal of rape culture through lazy sarcasm and misogynistic humour is an ironical symptom of rape culture.

That said, I disagree with you nonetheless. Racist Jokes don't condone racism, they are racism. Rape Jokes don't condone rape, they are part of Rape culture.

Definition of rape - "A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will".
Definition of culture - "the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society".
Therefore, the definition of rape culture should be - "where rape is an integral part of the ideas, customs and social behaviour of a particular people or society".

Yeah, don't think sarcasm and jokes fall under the heading of "rape culture".

MichaelScarn · 07-11-2016 12:13AM

FortySeven wrote: »

2361 sexual offences reported to garda in 2015.

Women's aid website.

Hardly an epidemic?

Say the figure is higher for unreported offences and it still isn't an epidemic. That is not to excuse or diminish those who have suffered but still hardly an epidemic or evidence of "rape culture"

CaptainInsano · 07-11-2016 12:15AM

I actually saw someone on Facebook sharing a post that was a list of things that supposedly don't exist .It was something along the lines of unicorns, racism towards white people, sexism towards men , heterophobia and leprechauns. It has thousands of shares and likes. Is the new defence against pointing out double standards simply to deny its existence ?

SneakyDoyle · 07-11-2016 12:15AM

Connacht2KXX wrote: »

Definition of rape - "A criminal offense defined in most states as forcible sexual relations with a person against that person's will".
Definition of culture - "the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society".
Therefore, the definition of rape culture should be - "where rape is an integral part of the ideas, customs and social behaviour of a particular people or society".

Yeah, don't think sarcasm and jokes fall under the heading of "rape culture".

Nice casual maths on that one champ, haha. Can't tell if you're serious or not

Dyr · 07-11-2016 12:23AM

So I've been digging around for this 1 in 4 research that people keep mentioning

Couple of things:

Not peer reviewed. Good luck with that.

Conducted via landline telephone only

Contains this doozy :

"Note that the term sexual harassment used in this study is seen as part of
the continuum of sexual violence and is broadly defined; other
researchers have used a narrower, more legal definition....
Participants were asked if they experienced any of these
situations in the last 12 months; thus the questions aimed to assess
the incidence of sexual harassment in Ireland rather than the
prevalence. Two additional items were developed for this section
and were queried for prevalence (lifetime experience). One item
regarded experiences with obscene phone calls, while the other
examined situations experienced by the person where he or she
was the focus of unwanted sexual jokes or activities
was the focus of unwanted sexual jokes or activities. The inclusion
of items regarding sexual harassment at this point in the survey"

Questions regarding abuse:

Have you had an experience that did not involve actual sexual contact between you and another person, but did involve an attempt by someone to force you to have any kind of unwanted sexual contact

Has anyone, male or female , touched your
breasts or genitals against your will?

Now, throw that first question at someone over the phone and do you think they'll even understand whats being asked?

ash23 · 07-11-2016 12:24AM

"Not knowing you were sexually assaulted, but then deciding that you were, only serves to water down the real issue of rape. Its like saying you are a habitually safe driver, but then they lower the speed limit and suddenly your usual speed is too fast - therefore, you *must* now be a dangerous driver."

That is actually amazing that you would think that being sexually assaulted is something that is decided on a whim or again in ANY way the fault or choice of a person who has been assaulted.
Or that coming to terms with the assault and accepting that it was an assault and not your fault is a decision as opposed to a process. A difficult one. I didn't go home from that night thinking all was well and wake up a year later deciding I had been assaulted.
I went home distraught but full of self blame.
I got older and more informed. I learned about consent and what a sexual assault was and realised that was what had happened.

What I suggest I'd that young women and men are taught early about consent and society starts talking about consent and it's importance for the safety of our young men and women.
Rather than going on the defensive and pretending it doesn't happen why can't we accept that consent is something that needs to be understood and clear.
It's ambiguity that causes the conflict and confusion and also the defensiveness.

That applies for sexual assault and rape.
I would never want my daughter in that position nor would I want my son to be left in a place where he has unwittingly sexually assaulted a woman through ignorance or assumption.

me_right_one · 07-11-2016 12:32AM

@ash23, I agree with everything you've written there. But there is still no way it can be said that there is a "culture" of rape in Ireland. What happened to you, while terrible, was not borne out of a planned set of community rules - that is what a culture is - about how to treat women. It was just an arsehole being an arsehole.

BoatMad · 07-11-2016 12:41AM

why can't we accept that consent is something that needs to be understood and clear.

I see, no sex when everyone is drunk then, that'll cut the birth rate !!

consent is a complex topic not amenable to " simple " sound bite solutions

ash23 · 07-11-2016 12:43AM

me_right_one wrote: »

@ash23, I agree with everything you've written there. But there is still no way it can be said that there is a "culture" of rape in Ireland. What happened to you, while terrible, was not borne out of a planned set of community rules - that is what a culture is - about how to treat women. It was just an arsehole being an arsehole.

I said at the outset that I didn't agree with the rape culture thing.
But from there I did go on to suggest that if the numbers are even half correct then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Twenty years ago every second person was probably drink driving. Nobody would stop them.
Now if your friend was going to drink and drive you'd probably think nothing of taking their keys off them.

Would the same apply if out with your mate and he's about to head off home with some girl who is very drunk? Or looks young?
Would it be common to say to him "I think you should forget that one, she's too drunk, not worth the risk" or ask him if he's checked for sure she's over 17 etc.

What changed with drink driving to shift the attitude from "it's grand" to "nope, unacceptable"? Awareness of the impact and affect. Better policing and enforcement. Society changing.

So how will we make sure consent is crystal clear and that there won't be any ambiguity? No woman feeling assaulted and no man accused wrongly or both because it's a grey area.
We've to make sure that consent is a concept that every person having sex or sexual contact is aware of and sees as an integral part of the process.

And to be honest when I see the victim blaming posts or comments about personal responsibility or women "changing their minds" about whether they've been assaulted or not, I am not convinced that there isn't a problem with how parts of society view that violation of women. Would I call it rape culture? Probably not but I can see why some would perceive it that way.