Louise O Neill on rape culture.

The Specialist · 06-11-2016 10:55PM

ash23 wrote: »

The second link, with the SAVI report breaks it down into Irish figures which is where I took the second quote from so it's Irish stats as far as I can tell.

It's 42% of Irish women experience sexual assault or abuse and 28% of Irish men.

The real percentage for male victims is likely to be a lot higher in reality as a lot won't speak out.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 10:57PM

Wibbs wrote: »

1) I'm sorry, but personal anecdote, while of course is personally hurtful and all that may come with that, does not an actual statistic make. Not even close. We go the personal route and we risk reactive mob rule based on eff all.

2) Four in ten, where does that come from? Is it yet another perennial twist on the one in four/five/six(these things rarely agree) stat peddled to the general public since the US college campus Koss study and I use the word "study" extremely loosely? That study, taken as gospel in the Victim Church movement, is so flimsy and full of demonstrable holes it would pass decent muster as a teabag. And yes I can back that up with actual statistics.

In any halfway civilised liberal democracy NO crime, no matter how trivial, never mind getting within an asses roar of sexual assault and/or rape has a victim rate even close to 20 odd per cent(well… maybe speeding). And only in the most addled mind, would someone suggest any crime comes within a rate of nearly fifty per cent. You're actually claiming half of all women have been sexually assaulted? You'd want to be a German woman in Russian controlled Berlin post summer 1945 to get near that kinda stat. I call utter nonsense, nay utter bullshít on that statistic.

If one was to believe that, then the obvious conclusion would be is that nearly half of all men are guilty of sexual assault/rape. Unless scummy bastards and rapists travel around a lot. Again I call hysterical bollocks of the highest quality.

We're through the looking glass here people.

What is the statistic then?
I'm going on a report used by a government body who deal with domestic and sexual abuse so if that report is biased or not to be believed then I don't really know where else to get a figure for you when it's being used as an official government stat?

Please do point me in the direction of a more accurate study?

ash23 · 06-11-2016 11:00PM

The Specialist wrote: »

The real percentage for male victims is likely to be a lot higher in reality as a lot won't speak out.

Possibly. Even 1% is too high for either gender but I was just showing where the four in ten figure comes from as I was asked to do.
It was the figure also reported on the programme which is where I first heard it and seems to come from that study.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:00PM

Have I read that right? The report about rape was undertaken by a rape awareness (I don't want to offend by incorrect terminology) organisation?

Are they really in the business of making rape a rare/low percentage occurrence?

How did they find the sample group?

I can think of quite a few reasons why that research is severely compromised.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:02PM

cloudatlas wrote:

She's encouraging women to come forward and speak about their experiences, get help and start the legal process. There is a poster at my local university from the Security services that states if you have been sexually assaulted come forward and report it we will believe you. This is from the security services not from a group of feminists. The legal process will take care of the rest.

The implications of that policy and the problems within are fairly evident.

Funnyonion79 · 06-11-2016 11:03PM

ash23 wrote: »

Why I described him as normal? Because he seemed to be. He had a job, friends and family. He was a sound lad until that incident and I'd known him two years. I never for a second thought I was in any danger or at risk. When I woke up and pushed him off he was confused at my reaction. His reckoning was we slept together before, we were making out, you went to bed.....of course you want this.
He didn't understand that consent needs to be ongoing. I wouldn't think he's the only man that would assume it was a given that we would have sex that night seeing as we usually ended up having sex when we met up on a night out.
If I had gone to the guards I doubt there was one person we knew who would have thought him capable of it and I'm sure the majority would have thought I was over reacting or forgot that I gave consent, was drunk and making out with him so of course he was confused etc.

It's easy to think of a rapist as someone evil but I'd say for a lot of people who find out someone they know or love has been accused of sexual assault, they find it hard to believe that person is capable of it.

Totally agree with this. I've been sexually assaulted several times in my life and all the instances took place with "normal" guys who I was either friends with or had been with in the past and there was alcohol involved each time as well. That's why I never even realised I had even been assaulted until recently, because I automatically blamed myself for being drunk. I would've never felt threatened by any of these guys or but ultimately I never consented to what they did and they just didn't seem to think that they were doing anything wrong.

D0NNELLY · 06-11-2016 11:04PM

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

Totally agree with this. I've been sexually assaulted several times in my life and all the instances took place with "normal" guys who I was either friends with or had been with in the past and there was alcohol involved each time as well. That's why I never even realised I had even been assaulted until recently, because I automatically blamed myself for being drunk. I would've never felt threatened by any of these guys or but ultimately I never consented to what they did and they just didn't seem to think that they were doing anything wrong.

Can we stop calling rapists normal? Inverted commas or no.

Yes before the facts most criminals seem normal, but not after.

Dyr · 06-11-2016 11:06PM

ligerdub wrote: »

Have I read that right? The report about rape was undertaken by a rape awareness (I don't want to offend by incorrect terminology) organisation?

Are they really in the business of making rape a rare/low percentage occurrence?

How did they find the sample group?

I can think of quite a few reasons why that research is severely compromised.

if in 1 in 4 women are being raped than we need to pour more money into rape awareness!

CHA-CHING!

Bigger budget, more staff, more responsibility and prestige for the management, bigger salaries and another step up the career ladder is taken

Wibbs · 06-11-2016 11:07PM

ash23 wrote: »

We talk about drink driving, about insurance fraud or benefit fraud. I see those topics discussed and read about them and I don't take it personally or assume that it means everyone drinks and drives or claims fraudulently etc.
I take it that a sector of society do and as it's not possible to catch them all there's an onus on society to teach and talk and discuss and stand up against it or report it.

I don't understand why the topic is always met with such resistance.

Really? You don't see how this might be met with "such resistance"? When you suggest that nearly half of women have been sexually assaulted? Which unless rapists get around, means that nearly half of all men are sexual assaulters? As I pointed out NO crime comes close to those levels. Find one that does. I dare ya, I double dare ya. Drink driving/insurance fraud/benefit fraud wouldn't get close to 40%.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:10PM

ash23 wrote:

Possibly. Even 1% is too high for either gender but I was just showing where the four in ten figure comes from as I was asked to do. It was the figure also reported on the programme which is where I first heard it and seems to come from that study.

To be fair they've seemed to have found the highest percentage study supporting the hypothesis and backed it to the hilt.

Have they examined the research and their methodologies, the cases for and against, the peer reviews?

This sort of report is absolutely vital to the credibility of their case and they seem hellbent on taking zero audit of it.

Let's take gender out of the equation and average out the results. I would be absolutely staggered if in reality that 1 in 3 people had been raped/sexually assaulted at some point.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:11PM

The Specialist wrote:

The real percentage for male victims is likely to be a lot higher in reality as a lot won't speak out.

I'd say the reality is lower for both, considerably lower.

FortySeven · 06-11-2016 11:13PM

I'm sure the numbers would be 40% if we classified unwanted chat up lines, staring and whistling as sexual assault . (Which they must have done and unfortunately advocate)

This idiocy needs to be nipped in the bud. Its as bad as the gender pay arguments.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 11:13PM

Why are people getting angry at me for quoting text from a GOVERNMENT BODY.
The same stat is also in a report (McGee et al) who are members of the royal college of surgeons.

I'm going on official government websites for this information. It's a stat that is widely reported. If someone can show me a different reputable source then I'll read it but saying "it's not possible" with nothing to say otherwise doesn't make it so.

And I'm not saying nearly half of all men are rapists or sexually abusing women. It's quite possible that one man affects a number of women. And possible that a number of men aren't even aware that a woman considers that he sexually assaulted her. And probable that groping makes up a good chunk of that too.

Saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so.

professore · 06-11-2016 11:14PM

If it is 4/10 why do women NEVER talk about it? I have some very close female friends who I literally can talk about anything with and I've never heard them talking about it. Those same women would call out anyone's poor behaviour towards them.

Maybe they assume I'm a rapist too and think of it as a water is wet thing?

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:17PM

ash23 wrote:

Why are people getting angry at me for quoting text from a GOVERNMENT BODY. The same stat is also in a report (McGee et al) who are members of the royal college of surgeons.

I'm sure it's not aimed at you, you're only quoting what is out there. It's more the report itself and it's use as currency people find problematic.

maudgonner · 06-11-2016 11:17PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Really? You don't see how this might be met with "such resistance"? When you suggest that nearly half of women have been sexually assaulted? Which unless rapists get around, means that nearly half of all men are sexual assaulters? As I pointed out NO crime comes close to those levels. Find one that does. I dare ya, I double dare ya. Drink driving/insurance fraud/benefit fraud wouldn't get close to 40%.

As a woman, based on my experience and that of women I'm close enough to talk about things like this with (which is very few), I think the 40% rate is entirely believable.

That's meaningless in real terms, I know. But that's my perspective.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 11:20PM

I've told one person about that night. I just wanted to forget it and now I don't think about it unless something like this comes up.
I'm not ashamed and I would talk about it if I was asked but it's not something I'd discuss over a night out with friends or even with family.

cloudatlas · 06-11-2016 11:21PM

ligerdub wrote: »

The implications of that policy and the problems within are fairly evident.

No, the security services have a duty of care to the students and it is well within their rights to encourage the reporting of incidents confidentially so that they can escalate them to the authorities. Their policy is condoned and supported by the University officially.

Sweetemotion · 06-11-2016 11:22PM

maudgonner wrote: »

As a woman, based on my experience and that of women I'm close enough to talk about things like this with (which is very few), I think the 40% rate is entirely believable.

That's meaningless in real terms, I know. But that's my perspective.

As a man I've been woke up a couple of times from partners and one night stands recieving oral sex.

Was I sexually assaulted and should those women be spending years in prison?

Funnyonion79 · 06-11-2016 11:22PM

professore wrote: »

If it is 4/10 why do women NEVER talk about it? I have some very close female friends who I literally can talk about anything with and I've never heard them talking about it. Those same women would call out anyone's poor behaviour towards them.

Maybe they assume I'm a rapist too and think of it as a water is wet thing?

I have a very close circle of friends and I have never discussed what has happened to me with them, apart from one incident. And I wouldn't be shy about telling them anything normally. I didn't even realised I had been assaulted until a few years ago and there's a lot of shame and guilt associated with all my experiences even though I was completely blameless. So it's possible that your female friends may not really be aware that it wasn't their fault and may not want to dwell on what has happened to them. I certainly didn't. Also because there was alcohol involved it was easier for me to chalk it up to one of those drunken nights I'd prefer to forget.

Funnyonion79 · 06-11-2016 11:26PM

ash23 wrote: »

I've told one person about that night. I just wanted to forget it and now I don't think about it unless something like this comes up.
I'm not ashamed and I would talk about it if I was asked but it's not something I'd discuss over a night out with friends or even with family.[/quote

I've told my husband and a few close friends about one of the incidences but we have never discussed it since. It makes people feel uncomfortable. Sad to say that but it does.

professore · 06-11-2016 11:27PM

Just realised something. It could be 4/10 even if there are say 5% of men like this. A woman meets thousands of men, all it takes is one man to add her to the 4/10.
It's like 80% of people have had something stolen is not the same as saying 80% of people are thieves. Therefore rape culture is quite possibly not a thing. However it has raised awareness for me.

Also read the stat that 93% are known to their victim. That's pretty horrendous.

Wibbs · 06-11-2016 11:27PM

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

Totally agree with this. I've been sexually assaulted several times in my life and all the instances took place with "normal" guys who I was either friends with or had been with in the past and there was alcohol involved each time as well. That's why I never even realised I had even been assaulted until recently, because I automatically blamed myself for being drunk. I would've never felt threatened by any of these guys or but ultimately I never consented to what they did and they just didn't seem to think that they were doing anything wrong.

Hang on a cotton picking second.. How in god's name does one not realise one has been assaulted? In any manner? It also begs the question - and heaven forfend I suggest some personal responsibility here - if I had been beaten up "several times" when I was drunk, yes I would have a major issue with those who beat me up and they would be directly responsible for the beatings, but I would think to myself "hang on, maybe I shouldn't get so drunk that being beaten up becomes a "thing" in my life".

ash23 wrote: »

And I'm not saying nearly half of all men are rapists or sexually abusing women.

You and the stats kinda are Ash.

It's quite possible that one man affects a number of women.

If it's near 40% that prick gets around.

And possible that a number of men aren't even aware that a woman considers that he sexually assaulted her.

It seems given by some a number of women aren't even aware they've been sexually assaulted until after the fact.

Saying it ain't so doesn't make it not so.

OK then. Nearly 50% of woman and a large chunk of men have been sexually assaulted. That does kinda make it so.

Bambi wrote:

if in 1 in 4 women are being raped than we need to pour more money into rape awareness!

CHA-CHING!

Bigger budget, more staff, more responsibility and prestige for the management, bigger salaries and another step up the career ladder is taken

Nail on the head B. Follow the money. As I mused earlier your O'Neills et al are basing their continued earnings on this "rape culture" woman as victim concept existing, regardless of whether it does or not. The scary part is that a) this rhetoric hides real cases of assault and rape, b) with such repetition of hysterics makes wider society increasingly wary of such claims and c) fosters even more of this imported gender war bullshít. The only winners in this are the professional hysterics and victims.

The Rape of Lucretia · 06-11-2016 11:29PM

ash23 wrote: »

If four out of ten women are experiencing sexual assault then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If only a fraction of those women report it then how can we say there isn't a problem?
If a tiny fraction of the reported cases go to court, again, how can we ignore the problem?
And of the tiny % that do get to court and are convicted then get a lenient sentence, isn't that also a problem?

Similarly though, on the use of the word 'normal', how can we say that sexual assault isnt 'normal' if 4 out of 10 women are experiencing it ?
If it is so prevalent, doesnt that make it normal ?

Widdershins · 06-11-2016 11:30PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

As a man I've been woke up a couple of times from partners and one night stands recieving oral sex.

Was I sexually assaulted and should those women be spending years in prison?

Would it be classed as assault if a husband performed oral sex on his wife while she slept or vice versa? Ok in a short term or one night stand there cant really be a sense of security and trust and a longstanding mutual agreement. In my relationship theres an understanding that consent isnt required each and every time, surprises are welcome, and if it wasnt welcome for whatever reason, it would stop. I suppose its more of an opt-out system. If this could be considered a failure to obtain consent and therefore assault..just, stop the lights.

professore · 06-11-2016 11:36PM

Funnyonion79 wrote: »

ash23 wrote: »

I've told one person about that night. I just wanted to forget it and now I don't think about it unless something like this comes up.
I'm not ashamed and I would talk about it if I was asked but it's not something I'd discuss over a night out with friends or even with family.[/quote

I've told my husband and a few close friends about one of the incidences but we have never discussed it since. It makes people feel uncomfortable. Sad to say that but it does.

Makes sense. I am going to ask them have they or their friends experienced it. My wife was attempted to be assaulted in her teens by an older man but as she is a judo black belt it didn't end well for him. This wasn't in Ireland.

ash23 · 06-11-2016 11:37PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hang on a cotton picking second.. How in god's name does one not realise one has been assaulted? In any manner? It also begs the question - and heaven forfend I suggest some personal responsibility here - if I had been beaten up "several times" when I was drunk, yes I would have a major issue with those who beat me up and they would be directly responsible for the beatings, but I would think to myself "hang on, maybe I shouldn't get so drunk that being beaten up becomes a "thing" in my life".

Some of us have explained why it took time to come to terms with being assaulted or why we struggled to accept we have.
I refuse to take any personal responsibility for having a few drinks (not falling down drunk or even remotely past being quite tipsy) and going into a friends bed to sleep alone but waking up to find a man assaulting me.

And it's comments like yours that feed that confusion and shame and prevent women from reporting assault knowing that people will think she should maybe take some personal responsibility for the actions of a rapist/sexual assault.
There's a difference between "getting in a fight" and someone randomly walking up and punching you.
If i woke up after consensual sex with regret then yes, I'd take a look at my choices. If I wake up with a man assaulting me then it is ALL on him and nothing to do with me. To suggest that victims of rape or assault need to look at their actions and take personal responsibility is pretty much the "rape culture" that is being discussed.

ligerdub · 06-11-2016 11:38PM

cloudatlas wrote:

No, the security services have a duty of care to the students and it is well within their rights to encourage the reporting of incidents confidentially so that they can escalate them to the authorities. Their policy is condoned and supported by the University officially.

I know it's supported. It doesn't make it correct.

Accusers are believed without question. So if the accuser is lying the accused is ****ed. That's ridiculous.

Sweetemotion · 06-11-2016 11:40PM

ligerdub wrote: »

I know it's supported. It doesn't make it correct.

Accusers are believed without question. So if the accuser is lying the accused is ****ed. That's ridiculous.

Lynch mob mentality, basically.

SneakyDoyle · 06-11-2016 11:42PM

Zulu wrote: »

Personally I love "rape day" when we all go out and celebrate our culture.

...And the "rape exhibit" in the art gallery is well worth a visit.

The fact that some of ye see this as fit subject for humour is f*ckin' abominable, and it's a testament to the fact that rape culture is alive and well. The ignorance is scandalous

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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