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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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  • #452
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    intheclouds wrote: »
    I know some so called engineers who couldnt change a plug but I wouldnt write off engineering as a discipline because of it.

    We wouldnt have STEM subjects at all if not for the creativity fostered by arts and humanities. Creativity is what gives us our humanity. Without art or culture we're just ants.

    never said get rid of them I said they should not cost the same as a course that has a job at the end of it.


  • #453
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    intheclouds wrote: »
    And youre qualified to judge the quality of other peoples academic interests?

    as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for university to be turned into a finishing school for the less academically inclined. All you are doing is paying a lot of money for everyone to stand up at the football match, nobody wins. If parents want to pay for the "fluffy " end of academia, no problem with that.
    In the US you have students coming out of college with useless liberal arts and gender studies degrees and a $100K in debt which they wont be able to generate additional income to pay it down. crazy stuff, if its to be "free" access has to be restricted to keep numbers down and quality up or the state pays for the country critical stuff and the let parents pay for the really soft stuff.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #454
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #455
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Rory28 wrote: »
    never said get rid of them I said they should not cost the same as a course that has a job at the end of it.

    Courses in arts and humanities do have jobs at the end of them.

    Theyre still the most popular courses applied for through CAO.


  • #456
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    silverharp wrote: »
    as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for university to be turned into a finishing school for the less academically inclined. All you are doing is paying a lot of money for everyone to stand up at the football match, nobody wins. If parents want to pay for the "fluffy " end of academia, no problem with that.
    In the US you have students coming out of college with useless liberal arts and gender studies degrees and a $100K in debt which they wont be able to generate additional income to pay it down. crazy stuff, if its to be "free" access has to be restricted to keep numbers down and quality up or the state pays for the country critical stuff and the let parents pay for the really soft stuff.

    I dont think you really understand the value of art and culture to society.

    There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

    You seem to think that we should only educate people in "hard" subjects - a society based on such a short sighted vision would be a horrific dystopian place.


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  • #457
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Seriously?

    You think arts and humanities are of no benefit to society?

    Thankfully youre not in charge of deciding these things.

    The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.


  • #458
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.

    Studying arts and humanities has very little to do with being an artist or a musician.


  • #459
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,045 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    Shouldn't we be trying to match people to the careers they would be most interested in and most suited to?
    midnight city wrote:
    Have you noticed anyone in authority or the media raising this as an issue. I haven't. Its almost celebrated that girls are outperforming boys so much.

    I have. Ironically it was often raised as part of my uni course.

    I bet some people think men are naturally most suited to physical trades and construction so those course should be dominated by men, but balk at the idea of 60% women in university courses. Survival of the fittest when they are reasonably confident men are the fittest for the role.
    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    Well you're talking about gender equality right now on social media. It sounds almost as if so wine is going to fall for a dreaded gender quota in university courses to make sure more men get to uni.

    What is the solution to encourage more men to go to third level? Do you change the way course are delivered or change entry requirements or what?


  • #460
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,045 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    El_Duderino 09 wrote:
    Well you're talking about gender equality right now on social media. It sounds almost as if so wine is going to fall for a dreaded gender quota in university courses to make sure more men get to uni.


    So wine is going to fall for = someone is going to call for. Autocorrect shafted me again


  • #461
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    So wine is going to fall for = someone is going to call for. Autocorrect shafted me again

    I think that is more of a secondary level problem. Boys are doing worse and worse in the leaving cert, making the higher points courses out of their reach.


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  • #462
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #463
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.

    Ehh, that's really not true.
    You can easily cherry pick dozens of examples to support your claim, but in the overall sense, most musicians and artists have some forms of formal training, either in established colleges or smaller classes.


  • #464
    eeguy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them


  • #465
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,049 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    eeguy wrote: »
    Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them

    errr emm, my cousin does and has been for a few years now, unfortunately most of his time has been served outside of this country. i have been told by another teacher though that he ll have a very good chance of getting a full time position here when he returns due to gender imbalance.


  • #466
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #467
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    intheclouds wrote: »
    I dont think you really understand the value of art and culture to society.

    There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

    You seem to think that we should only educate people in "hard" subjects - a society based on such a short sighted vision would be a horrific dystopian place.

    which is why restricted works for me too. its about affordability and quality.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #468
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I also have the impression (anectodal! no study backup!) that men get promoted to Principal more than they should given the raw numbers. I know more than one Primary school where the only male teacher ended up as Principal, taking him out of a teaching role.


  • #469
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    intheclouds wrote: »
    There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

    Not sure I believe work looking into nuclear fusion will suffer if we don't produce enough masters on twilight.


  • #470
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    "roll model" im not sure off. I think a male teacher is more likely to better deal with boyish behaviour . The US has gone silly with their pc culture, boy eats pop tart into a gun, he is sent home and put on Ritalin. But I notice it even in my kids school which is mixed, the boys are "over regulated"

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #471
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,045 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    So men don't choose teaching at the same rate as women for one reason or another
    Permabear wrote:
    This post had been deleted.

    How do you encourage more men into teaching?
    Wanderer78 wrote:
    errr emm, my cousin does and has been for a few years now, unfortunately most of his time has been served outside of this country. i have been told by another teacher though that he ll have a very good chance of getting a full time position here when he returns due to gender imbalance.

    Even counting your friend, there aren't as many male teachers as female teachers. 2 friends of mine are expecting to excel in their fields for exactly the reason that they are men - teacher and a nurse.


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  • #472
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,045 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Rory28 wrote:
    I think that is more of a secondary level problem. Boys are doing worse and worse in the leaving cert, making the higher points courses out of their reach.

    Either way, how do you address the issue?


  • #473
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Either way, how do you address the issue?

    me personally? no idea. maybe throw poptarts at kids who do bad on tests?

    that problem is a huge one. asking some guy on the internet for a solution that governments cant fix is a bit silly.


  • #474
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    eeguy wrote: »
    Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them

    Nobody has ever sold it to them or pushed the idea for them. Compare it to the push to get women into STEM. The best national school teacher i had was in 6th class. After years and years of female teachers focusing on reading, irish, religion etc he seemed to really appeal to my more logical scientific brain. Lots of focus on maths, science, geography. He brought real world examples into the classroom. I think we underestimate the importance of male teachers to boys. My nephew currently has a new male teacher and my sister says he thinks he is great.


  • #475
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    eeguy wrote: »
    Ehh, that's really not true.
    You can easily cherry pick dozens of examples to support your claim, but in the overall sense, most musicians and artists have some forms of formal training, either in established colleges or smaller classes.

    It would depend on the type of music but people usually get into it at a young age if they have an interest. Not sure what advantage college would provide in that field, excluding classical.


  • #476
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #477
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Either way, how do you address the issue?

    Was the curriculum previously changed to address girls scoring lower than boys?


  • #478
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    100% yes and a male teacher would "tend" to manage it better and kind of know when to let them blow off a bit of steam. Even in my kids school for instance there have been things like all the boys getting a punishment homework and not the girls for being noisy. they weren't allowed play soccer for a couple of months because it wasn't "inclusive" or the last one was the boys and girls playing tip rugby but the boys had to pass to 1 girl before they scored. Nobody had fun.
    In the US I believe they have cut down on recess for example so a school day can be a straight run with maybe 30min lunch? again that would hit the boys more than the girls. And now you probably have syllabus issues too.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #479
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #480
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    silverharp wrote: »
    100% yes and a male teacher would "tend" to manage it better and kind of know when to let them blow off a bit of steam. Even in my kids school for instance there have been things like all the boys getting a punishment homework and not the girls for being noisy. they weren't allowed play soccer for a couple of months because it wasn't "inclusive" or the last one was the boys and girls playing tip rugby but the boys had to pass to 1 girl before they scored. Nobody had fun.
    In the US I believe they have cut down on recess for example so a school day can be a straight run with maybe 30min lunch? again that would hit the boys more than the girls. And now you probably have syllabus issues too.

    If there was ever an official forum to discuss this issues like that would come out. But its just not seen as important. Nobody seems to want to discuss it.

    The male teacher i was referring too nearly always let us out at break time to play football. Id say he knew the boys absolutely needed it.


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  • #481
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Can't say I have much sympathy. The under-achieving boys in my sons schools are a complete pack of savages, you'd have to issue the teachers tasers to get any work out of them.


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