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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

maregal

I'd like this thread to discuss the reasons why men are dropping out of society and foregoing women rather than discuss whether it's a good or bad thing. Last time a poster espoused the merits of the MGTOW movement the angry feminists brigaded the forum and forced the thread closure. It's amusing how offended they get as a group when one single man declares he's not interested in them.

To keep the OP brief I'll list off some oft-suggested reasons and hopefully we can expand on them in the discussion.

Marriage is seen as a temporary arrangement these days rather than permanent. Men always lose out in the divorce. Look what the alimony payments did to Robin Williams.

A good job is hard to find. Everything is an internship, short contract or a dead end McJob. Employment quotas favour women and minorities.

Pornography making men docile?

Education system favours the female brain. Universities are packed with more females than males. SJW and politically correct dogma is shoved down your throat at these institutions.

Men being demonized. Grown man holding hands with his child in the public park = pedophile. Have consensual sex with a girl but she changes her mind the next day = rapist. Men are constantly fighting back their natural urge to rape and commit violence apparently.

I've a few more hypotheses but that should be enough to get the ball rolling.

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Rory28

intheclouds wrote: »

I know some so called engineers who couldnt change a plug but I wouldnt write off engineering as a discipline because of it.

We wouldnt have STEM subjects at all if not for the creativity fostered by arts and humanities. Creativity is what gives us our humanity. Without art or culture we're just ants.

never said get rid of them I said they should not cost the same as a course that has a job at the end of it.

silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

And youre qualified to judge the quality of other peoples academic interests?

as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for university to be turned into a finishing school for the less academically inclined. All you are doing is paying a lot of money for everyone to stand up at the football match, nobody wins. If parents want to pay for the "fluffy " end of academia, no problem with that.
In the US you have students coming out of college with useless liberal arts and gender studies degrees and a $100K in debt which they wont be able to generate additional income to pay it down. crazy stuff, if its to be "free" access has to be restricted to keep numbers down and quality up or the state pays for the country critical stuff and the let parents pay for the really soft stuff.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

intheclouds

Rory28 wrote: »

never said get rid of them I said they should not cost the same as a course that has a job at the end of it.

Courses in arts and humanities do have jobs at the end of them.

Theyre still the most popular courses applied for through CAO.

intheclouds

silverharp wrote: »

as a taxpayer I don't want to pay for university to be turned into a finishing school for the less academically inclined. All you are doing is paying a lot of money for everyone to stand up at the football match, nobody wins. If parents want to pay for the "fluffy " end of academia, no problem with that.
In the US you have students coming out of college with useless liberal arts and gender studies degrees and a $100K in debt which they wont be able to generate additional income to pay it down. crazy stuff, if its to be "free" access has to be restricted to keep numbers down and quality up or the state pays for the country critical stuff and the let parents pay for the really soft stuff.

I dont think you really understand the value of art and culture to society.

There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

You seem to think that we should only educate people in "hard" subjects - a society based on such a short sighted vision would be a horrific dystopian place.

Potatoeman

intheclouds wrote: »

Seriously?

You think arts and humanities are of no benefit to society?

Thankfully youre not in charge of deciding these things.

The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.

intheclouds

Potatoeman wrote: »

The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.

Studying arts and humanities has very little to do with being an artist or a musician.

El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

Shouldn't we be trying to match people to the careers they would be most interested in and most suited to?

midnight city wrote:

Have you noticed anyone in authority or the media raising this as an issue. I haven't. Its almost celebrated that girls are outperforming boys so much.

I have. Ironically it was often raised as part of my uni course.

I bet some people think men are naturally most suited to physical trades and construction so those course should be dominated by men, but balk at the idea of 60% women in university courses. Survival of the fittest when they are reasonably confident men are the fittest for the role.

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

Well you're talking about gender equality right now on social media. It sounds almost as if so wine is going to fall for a dreaded gender quota in university courses to make sure more men get to uni.

What is the solution to encourage more men to go to third level? Do you change the way course are delivered or change entry requirements or what?

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

Well you're talking about gender equality right now on social media. It sounds almost as if so wine is going to fall for a dreaded gender quota in university courses to make sure more men get to uni.

So wine is going to fall for = someone is going to call for. Autocorrect shafted me again

Rory28

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So wine is going to fall for = someone is going to call for. Autocorrect shafted me again

I think that is more of a secondary level problem. Boys are doing worse and worse in the leaving cert, making the higher points courses out of their reach.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eeguy

Potatoeman wrote: »

The most prominent and successful artists and musicians don't learn their craft in college.

Ehh, that's really not true.
You can easily cherry pick dozens of examples to support your claim, but in the overall sense, most musicians and artists have some forms of formal training, either in established colleges or smaller classes.

eeguy

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them

Wanderer78

eeguy wrote: »

Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them

errr emm, my cousin does and has been for a few years now, unfortunately most of his time has been served outside of this country. i have been told by another teacher though that he ll have a very good chance of getting a full time position here when he returns due to gender imbalance.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

silverharp

intheclouds wrote: »

I dont think you really understand the value of art and culture to society.

There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

You seem to think that we should only educate people in "hard" subjects - a society based on such a short sighted vision would be a horrific dystopian place.

which is why restricted works for me too. its about affordability and quality.

Zubeneschamali

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I also have the impression (anectodal! no study backup!) that men get promoted to Principal more than they should given the raw numbers. I know more than one Primary school where the only male teacher ended up as Principal, taking him out of a teaching role.

Carlos Orange

intheclouds wrote: »

There would be no hard end of academia if there had never been a "fluffy" end as you so quaintly put it.

Not sure I believe work looking into nuclear fusion will suffer if we don't produce enough masters on twilight.

silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

"roll model" im not sure off. I think a male teacher is more likely to better deal with boyish behaviour . The US has gone silly with their pc culture, boy eats pop tart into a gun, he is sent home and put on Ritalin. But I notice it even in my kids school which is mixed, the boys are "over regulated"

El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

So men don't choose teaching at the same rate as women for one reason or another

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

How do you encourage more men into teaching?

Wanderer78 wrote:

errr emm, my cousin does and has been for a few years now, unfortunately most of his time has been served outside of this country. i have been told by another teacher though that he ll have a very good chance of getting a full time position here when he returns due to gender imbalance.

Even counting your friend, there aren't as many male teachers as female teachers. 2 friends of mine are expecting to excel in their fields for exactly the reason that they are men - teacher and a nurse.

El_Duderino 09

Rory28 wrote:

I think that is more of a secondary level problem. Boys are doing worse and worse in the leaving cert, making the higher points courses out of their reach.

Either way, how do you address the issue?

Rory28

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Either way, how do you address the issue?

me personally? no idea. maybe throw poptarts at kids who do bad on tests?

that problem is a huge one. asking some guy on the internet for a solution that governments cant fix is a bit silly.

midnight city

eeguy wrote: »

Men don't want to be primary teachers. Men are also hired preferentially over women in primary schools, so it's not like the system iso trying to exclude them

Nobody has ever sold it to them or pushed the idea for them. Compare it to the push to get women into STEM. The best national school teacher i had was in 6th class. After years and years of female teachers focusing on reading, irish, religion etc he seemed to really appeal to my more logical scientific brain. Lots of focus on maths, science, geography. He brought real world examples into the classroom. I think we underestimate the importance of male teachers to boys. My nephew currently has a new male teacher and my sister says he thinks he is great.

Potatoeman

eeguy wrote: »

Ehh, that's really not true.
You can easily cherry pick dozens of examples to support your claim, but in the overall sense, most musicians and artists have some forms of formal training, either in established colleges or smaller classes.

It would depend on the type of music but people usually get into it at a young age if they have an interest. Not sure what advantage college would provide in that field, excluding classical.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Potatoeman

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Either way, how do you address the issue?

Was the curriculum previously changed to address girls scoring lower than boys?

silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

100% yes and a male teacher would "tend" to manage it better and kind of know when to let them blow off a bit of steam. Even in my kids school for instance there have been things like all the boys getting a punishment homework and not the girls for being noisy. they weren't allowed play soccer for a couple of months because it wasn't "inclusive" or the last one was the boys and girls playing tip rugby but the boys had to pass to 1 girl before they scored. Nobody had fun.
In the US I believe they have cut down on recess for example so a school day can be a straight run with maybe 30min lunch? again that would hit the boys more than the girls. And now you probably have syllabus issues too.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

midnight city

silverharp wrote: »

100% yes and a male teacher would "tend" to manage it better and kind of know when to let them blow off a bit of steam. Even in my kids school for instance there have been things like all the boys getting a punishment homework and not the girls for being noisy. they weren't allowed play soccer for a couple of months because it wasn't "inclusive" or the last one was the boys and girls playing tip rugby but the boys had to pass to 1 girl before they scored. Nobody had fun.
In the US I believe they have cut down on recess for example so a school day can be a straight run with maybe 30min lunch? again that would hit the boys more than the girls. And now you probably have syllabus issues too.

If there was ever an official forum to discuss this issues like that would come out. But its just not seen as important. Nobody seems to want to discuss it.

The male teacher i was referring too nearly always let us out at break time to play football. Id say he knew the boys absolutely needed it.

Zubeneschamali

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Can't say I have much sympathy. The under-achieving boys in my sons schools are a complete pack of savages, you'd have to issue the teachers tasers to get any work out of them.