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Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

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Comments

  • #542
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    As long as the standards mean everyone can actually do the job, then fine. If you have surplus candidates, then it could well be advantageous to make sure he industry isn't nearly single sex.

    Dangerous territory there. What if 43%of men is the right number in university? Slap on the wrist for me, naughty. (Just playing devil's advocate)


    every profession has demand and supply, you tend to set the criteria on the high end to get the best you can. on such a basis I would wager a very small number of women would become fire fighters. In a politically correct system there is pressure to keep to a message, set low standards and have a real or shadow quota. after a low number the more women I see becoming firefighters the less faith I would have in the service because women are clearly physically limited compared to men and at some stage they will have to carry something very heavy or lift a beam off a person and they will fail and someone dies, that's a mathematical certainty

    as for university not all courses are created equal so I am not so bothered by the overall number without more analysis. to pick an extreme example if a class of 99% women doing a gender studies degree pushes up the % of women in college I don't care as long as they are paying the the real cost of the course themselves. if its gov funded why is the taxpayer laying on "fluffy" courses for women, the deal was they would go into Science and IT and contribute to the economy, creating thousands of soft media, communications, journalism courses to feed the educational industrial complex is just adding cost to the system as there generally isn't a lot of jobs in these allegedly vocational sounding courses.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #543
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Dangerous territory there. What if 43%of men is the right number in university? Slap on the wrist for me, naughty.

    Personally i don't have an issue with 43% of university students being comprised of women. There are other good careers such as the trades, army, guards etc that men go to instead. I am a little concerned however at the leaving cert results and the top university courses such as medicine being dominated by women.


  • #544
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    psinno wrote:
    If a woman meeting a lower standard can do the job so can a man meeting the same lower standard.


    Can both of these people in your scenario, do the job?


  • #545
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Can both of these people in your scenario, do the job?

    Is discrimination only wrong because it lowers the standard of work?


  • #546
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    midnight city wrote:
    In my experience boys respond well to male teachers. Considering we have a school system with 50% girls and 50% boys. Why should they be taught by 85% women.

    Is that anecdotal or do boys actually respond better to male teachers?

    I asked earlier how to encourage more men to go involved in teaching but nobody had any ideas. I presume render quotas are out of the question?
    midnight city wrote:
    If there are enough physically strong women interested in firefighting then great let them at it. What we don't need is 5 ft 2in 7 stone women becoming firefighters. I wouldn't want a similar sized man doing it either. There is no problem with women being police officers or firefighters if they are physically up to the job.

    It's not really a gender issue the is it? More of an issue of matching aptitudes to professions.
    silverharp wrote:
    as for university not all courses are created equal so I am not so bothered by the overall number without more analysis. to pick an extreme example if a class of 99% women doing a gender studies degree pushes up the % of women in college I don't care as long as they are paying the the real cost of the course themselves. if its gov funded why is the taxpayer laying on "fluffy" courses for women, the deal was they would go into Science and IT and contribute to the economy, creating thousands of soft media, communications, journalism courses to feed the educational industrial complex is just adding cost to the system as there generally isn't a lot of jobs in these allegedly vocational sounding courses.

    Being fair, thus s more a rant about 'fluffy' courses than anything relevant to this particular discussion.
    midnight city wrote:
    Personally i don't have an issue with 43% of university students being comprised of women. There are other good careers such as the trades, army, guards etc that men go to instead. I am a little concerned however at the leaving cert results and the top university courses such as medicine being dominated by women.

    You don't have an issue with 43% of university students being comprised of men? (I presume you meant 43% men rather than women). Do e of the fellas in this thread will be along presently to tell you why you're wrong. They just spent pages and pages telling each other how awful that situation is and how we should stop at nothing to fix the problem

    Why would you have a problem with sobe professions like medicine being dominated by one gender but not other professions?


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  • #547
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    psinno wrote:
    Is discrimination only wrong because it lowers the standard of work?

    The point of my brief question (I thought you'd appreciate that) was to see if the people in your imaginary scenario can all do the job. If they can the standard of work is high enough, if they can't all do the job, then the standard of work isn't high enough.


  • #548
    Colser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,572 ✭✭✭Colser


    midnight city wrote:
    In my experience boys respond well to male teachers. Considering we have a school system with 50% girls and 50% boys. Why should they be taught by 85% women.


    I'd have to agree with this especially in secondary school.

    BTW as a woman I'd refuse to take a position having passed a lower standard application than a man.There are some obvious differences between us and strength is definitely one .

    Bring back common sense ,it's becoming obsolete due to ridiculous nit picking by a few people who would never be happy with anything anyway.


  • #549
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

    Being fair, thus s more a rant about 'fluffy' courses than anything relevant to this particular discussion.


    sure but as a net taxpayer im on the hook for it until we go to commercial fees

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #550
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    The point of my brief question (I thought you'd appreciate that) was to see if the people in your imaginary scenario can all do the job. If they can the standard of work is high enough, if they can't all do the job, then the standard of work isn't high enough.

    If they had a single set of physical requirements and only let men apply would that be acceptable to you?


  • #551
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    silverharp wrote: »
    sure but as a net taxpayer im on the hook for it until we go to commercial fees

    I think you should have to pay for a liberal arts course out of your own pocket. Fùck this subsidized fee shìte.

    Whatever about paying for a guy to do actuary, I have a big issue with paying a 50%+ tax rate for little Wendy to get her degree in Transgender Gorilla Studies.


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  • #552
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Is that anecdotal or do boys actually respond better to male teachers?

    I asked earlier how to encourage more men to go involved in teaching but nobody had any ideas. I presume render quotas are out of the question?


    Why would you have a problem with sobe professions like medicine being dominated by one gender but not other professions?

    The same way they are trying to get girls into the STEM fields. By talking to the students about the courses and showing that is a valid profession for males too.

    The doctor issue is a legitimate concern. We can't just ignore the fact that boys are not getting the points required to even apply for the course. Same with law.

    You keep asking these questions like the person you put them too has all the answers. Have you any thoughts or just more questions?


  • #553
    py2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,845 ✭✭✭py2006


    Out of curiosity, I went a took a wee look at the stats on this years Leaving Cert (higher) Results. They are in table format so it doesn't seem to display correctly on phones.

    Irish:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 772 1153 1520 1719 1686 1556 1418 1173 855 452 229 61 11 2
    TOTAL MALE 300 508 757 906 968 988 908 806 704 369 220 47 7 3


    English:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 751 1297 1094 1898 2624 2672 2920 2703 2144 1179 665 163 14 1
    TOTAL MALE 411 841 704 1364 1848 2020 2392 2330 2054 1310 898 253 22 5


    Maths:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 238 333 451 596 699 805 901 870 754 619 500 342 57 0
    TOTAL MALE 591 513 605 734 845 902 907 846 742 537 498 255 54 4


    French:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 611 708 849 915 986 1006 1044 906 884 622 514 213 16 0
    TOTAL MALE 275 386 453 529 569 641 704 632 615 477 455 229 14 0


    Biology:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 883 1309 1279 1488 1565 1437 1482 1473 1126 1047 1199 980 245 23
    TOTAL MALE 516 752 711 831 941 847 881 864 749 734 853 753 220 24


    Physics:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 162 166 145 139 150 159 143 139 75 80 98 84 27 7
    TOTAL MALE 457 449 341 346 358 325 371 353 269 312 352 338 141 17


    Chemistry:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 396 377 434 405 385 361 344 336 302 276 272 265 86 7
    TOTAL MALE 411 322 301 327 286 253 236 289 211 204 236 235 84 17


  • #554
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Why would you have a problem with some professions like medicine being dominated by one gender but not other professions?

    I would be happy to see pretty much all professions mixed well. Provided people were capable of doing the job properly. I don't want to see entrance criteria dumbed down though.


  • #555
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    py2006 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, I went a took a wee look at the stats on this years Leaving Cert (higher) Results. They are in table format so it doesn't seem to display correctly on phones.

    Irish:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 772 1153 1520 1719 1686 1556 1418 1173 855 452 229 61 11 2
    TOTAL MALE 300 508 757 906 968 988 908 806 704 369 220 47 7 3


    English:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 751 1297 1094 1898 2624 2672 2920 2703 2144 1179 665 163 14 1
    TOTAL MALE 411 841 704 1364 1848 2020 2392 2330 2054 1310 898 253 22 5


    Maths:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 238 333 451 596 699 805 901 870 754 619 500 342 57 0
    TOTAL MALE 591 513 605 734 845 902 907 846 742 537 498 255 54 4


    French:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 611 708 849 915 986 1006 1044 906 884 622 514 213 16 0
    TOTAL MALE 275 386 453 529 569 641 704 632 615 477 455 229 14 0


    Biology:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 883 1309 1279 1488 1565 1437 1482 1473 1126 1047 1199 980 245 23
    TOTAL MALE 516 752 711 831 941 847 881 864 749 734 853 753 220 24


    Physics:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 162 166 145 139 150 159 143 139 75 80 98 84 27 7
    TOTAL MALE 457 449 341 346 358 325 371 353 269 312 352 338 141 17


    Chemistry:
    Subjects Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade Grade
    Grade A1 A2 B1 B2 B3 C1 C2 C3 D1 D2 D3 E F NG
    TOTAL FEMALE 396 377 434 405 385 361 344 336 302 276 272 265 86 7
    TOTAL MALE 411 322 301 327 286 253 236 289 211 204 236 235 84 17

    its kind of what you expect male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff. the problem with the LC is it has 3 compulsory languages, Eng Irish and a European language. so the points are biased. It seems like a lot of boys would get piped for high point courses like medicine or law because of some B's popping up in say the Irish or French.
    It it comes to guys competing for engineering or IT courses they are grand as they are only competing amongst themselves by and large.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #556
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    silverharp wrote: »
    its kind of what you expect male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff.

    Also what you would expect given generations of kids fed baloney like "male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff"


  • #557
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    silverharp wrote: »
    its kind of what you expect male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff. the problem with the LC is it has 3 compulsory languages, Eng Irish and a European language. so the points are biased. It seems like a lot of boys would get piped for high point courses like medicine or law because of some B's popping up in say the Irish or French.
    It it comes to guys competing for engineering or IT courses they are grand as they are only competing amongst themselves by and large.

    A good start would be dropping compulsory Irish at leaving level and reducing the subjects studied at leaving cert level to 4 or 5. This would help boys who find it more difficult to knuckle down and study to concentrate on 4 or 5 subjects they may have an interest in.


  • #558
    pumpkin4life
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭pumpkin4life


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Also what you would expect given generations of kids fed baloney like "male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff"

    It's not baloney. It's completely true.

    Here's an article with a good run down of the characteristics. There's a lot of content to do with autism, but the relevant information is succinctly explained.


    http://cogsci.bme.hu/~ivady/bscs/read/bc.pdf


  • #559
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,321 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    silverharp wrote: »
    its kind of what you expect male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff.
    Indeed, though another thing I see is that as a trend those subjects that require actual applied thinking rather than rote learning the boys also do better(a subject like English would require a mixture of both).

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #560
    GingerLily
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,766 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    I'm female and took applied maths and physics to boost my points so I didn't need to rely on languages for points. Should I be bitter that school LC is bias towards traditionally female subjects that I am not strong in, or should I be grateful that as I'm a female and got to benefit through my gender in the LC? I'm just curious.....


  • #561
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    GingerLily wrote: »
    I'm female and took applied maths and physics to boost my points so I didn't need to rely on languages for points. Should I be bitter that school LC is bias towards traditionally female subjects that I am not strong in, or should I be grateful that as I'm a female and got to benefit through my gender in the LC? I'm just curious.....

    How did you do?


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  • #562
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    GingerLily wrote: »
    I'm female and took applied maths and physics to boost my points so I didn't need to rely on languages for points. Should I be bitter that school LC is bias towards traditionally female subjects that I am not strong in, or should I be grateful that as I'm a female and got to benefit through my gender in the LC? I'm just curious.....

    So you did english, irish, maths, applied maths, physics, what else?


  • #563
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Also what you would expect given generations of kids fed baloney like "male brain good at the maths subjects , the female brain good at the language stuff"

    why is it baloney ? based on IQ studies and what people actually study in college there are gender differences here. sure at an individual level its meaningless , its just a tot of averages. However if a feminist looks at that they will think the patriarchy is oppressing girls or that maths is an imperialist construct.
    Even in the US there is quite a difference in maths scores between m/f . after telling girls for the last 30 years that they can do whatever they want, if these differences persist there is a likely biological basis either in absolute ability or incentives. High paying careers that suit women like medicine or law don't require mathematicians

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #564
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    GingerLily wrote: »
    I'm female and took applied maths and physics to boost my points so I didn't need to rely on languages for points. Should I be bitter that school LC is bias towards traditionally female subjects that I am not strong in, or should I be grateful that as I'm a female and got to benefit through my gender in the LC? I'm just curious.....

    You should feel however you want to feel and not give a damn about what anybody else tells you how you should feel.


  • #565
    GingerLily
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,766 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    midnight city wrote: »
    So you did english, irish, maths, applied maths, physics, what else?

    French and Home Ec, 8 subjects, I had to take Applied maths in a boys school across the road after school.

    I'm just trying to point out that school isn't just hard on males and easy for females, it's not black and white and all about gender ALL the time.


  • #566
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Indeed, though another thing I see is that as a trend those subjects that require actual applied thinking rather than rote learning the boys also do better(a subject like English would require a mixture of both).

    Philosophy probably fits that bill as there is a lot of inbuilt mathematical style logical reasoning but would need to have a strong language ability.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #567
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    GingerLily wrote: »
    French and Home Ec, 8 subjects, I had to take Applied maths in a boys school across the road after school.

    I'm just trying to point out that school isn't just hard on males and easy for females, it's not black and white and all about gender ALL the time.

    There will always be outliers but on the whole it suits women.


  • #568
    GingerLily
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,766 ✭✭✭GingerLily


    Rory28 wrote: »
    How did you do?

    Why does it matter?


  • #569
    Rory28
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Rory28


    GingerLily wrote: »
    Why does it matter?

    I guess it doesn't


  • #570
    midnight city
    Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭midnight city


    GingerLily wrote: »
    Why does it matter?

    You still had to do 3 languages even though you had an obvious flair for more logical/scientific subjects. Doing 4 or 5 leaving cert subjects would have suited you well.


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  • #571
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    GingerLily wrote: »
    I'm female and took applied maths and physics to boost my points so I didn't need to rely on languages for points. Should I be bitter that school LC is bias towards traditionally female subjects that I am not strong in, or should I be grateful that as I'm a female and got to benefit through my gender in the LC? I'm just curious.....

    ideally you should have the choice, the only 2 subject that one should have to do in our system is English and Maths the rest then you should be able to ferret out yourself.
    the other skew possibly is giving all subjects equal points leaving aside maths. A subject like Bis Org anyone can do, you might do better if you are more interested , but its unlikely you would read a chapter several times and say afterwards "I don't get it" whereas some people would fail an old style physics paper (pre dumbed down :D ) if you gave them 5 years to learn it

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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