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The cost of travelling to work is becoming unsustainable

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    #182
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    people seem to confuse the concepts of living in a rural town, with living a mile outside that town.
    there's a hell of a difference between providing services to someone living in a rural village, and to someone who wants their half acre of land half a mile or a mile outside the village.


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    #183
    Nomis21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What? hive off old people into rural isolation?

    Sounds like a horrendous policy

    They will not be isolated if they have internet, that's the point.


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    #184
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    n97 mini wrote: »
    The notion of moving retirees away from major hospitals at a time of their lives when they'll most need it is completely daft.
    and going by my own in-laws as an example, who are living 4km away from the nearest shop - making retirees so dependent on cars for transport is hardly a good idea, health wise. they can't go anywhere without the car; i suspect it's been years since either of them ever considered public transport.


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    #185
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    They will not be isolated if they have internet, that's the point.
    i cannot take you seriously any more.


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    #186
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    They will not be isolated if they have internet, that's the point.

    The internet doesn't pave the road outside the house, provide healthcare, postal services, policing, a fire service, do the grocery shopping or go for a pint though.


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    #187
    old boy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    n97 mini wrote: »
    If you drive to the station in Carlow you could make your next car an EV. €120 tax and free parking *and* free electricity from the charge point in the Irish Rail car park.

    but you have to buy an electric car and live in carlow, to advail of this


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    #188
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,980 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    They will not be isolated if they have internet, that's the point.


    Internet access isn't the answer to combating social isolation at all :rolleyes:

    Firstly you are talking a demographic of people who would have higher numbers with limited technical abilities
    Secondly social isolation is definitely not solved by shoving a screen in front of someone - it's solved by having opportunities for people to meet others, to volunteer, to take part in activities, to avail of services.

    Nah as I said - horrendous policy especially considering the lack of public transport in such areas

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #189
    old boy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and going by my own in-laws as an example, who are living 4km away from the nearest shop - making retirees so dependent on cars for transport is hardly a good idea, health wise. they can't go anywhere without the car; i suspect it's been years since either of them ever considered public transport.

    if they can advail of public transport, the majority cannot


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    #190
    old boy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭old boy


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    They will not be isolated if they have internet, that's the point.

    many oldies especially in country areas are have low standards of education, to use a mobile fone is beyond the comprenshion of some


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    #191
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,980 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    old boy wrote: »
    if they can advail of public transport, the majority cannot

    Yep - ireland outside of Dublin is badly catered for there

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #192
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    old boy wrote: »
    but you have to buy an electric car and live in carlow, to advail of this

    Yup. If you are due a replacement car an EV would make perfect sense in this scenario.


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    #193
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The usual example of cost of provision of services to my in laws that I make - at least twice a year, their phone line is pulled down by a farmer pulling a tractor, and my father in law gets on to eircom and reads then the riot act until an engineer comes out and splices the line. I suspect a single capt like this way more than wipes out the profit for eircom, this driving prices in general up. There's no need for them to live where they do, but most services provided to them are probably provided at a loss.


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    #194
    darlett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭darlett


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i've no issue with people who need to live in the countryside doing so. but if you choose to do it, the rest of us are subsidising that choice.

    You flatter yourself if you think that those who live in the city are subsiding dwellers in the country.

    Say you subsidise an internet connection to someone who has dug a well, yet by paying taxes subsides water connection to you; well which one of you is the real hero. Maybe neither needs to feel superior.

    But if you feel good about the self-flattery continue, it does no harm. But remember if you choose to live and work in the city others have to deal with the problems you create by been there by putting up rents/house prices & congestion etc. Fair?


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    #195
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No there isn't

    Why on earth should there be?

    To free up capacity at peak times to those that bring hard cash revenue to the business, not those who don't pay a cent. If they really need to use at peak times, charge them something at least. That way those that really need to travel can or else postpone their journey for an hour or two if not pressing.


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    #196
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    darlett wrote: »
    You flatter yourself if you think that those who live in the city are subsiding dwellers in the country

    It's a fact, there's no debate. LPT transfers are from urban to rural, and even An Post just recently attributed the latest price rise on the cost of a stamp to rural deliveries. Just two of many examples.


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    #197
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    darlett wrote: »
    You flatter yourself if you think that those who live in the city are subsiding dwellers in the country.
    If I think this? Do some research. As n97mini points out, it's a fact. Cost of delivery of a letter in Dublin is half the price of a stamp. In rural Ireland, it's double the price. The ESB have three times as much wire per capita in Ireland than is required in England, and significantly higher than in Scotland. Many people in Ireland don't want to live in villages but want all the benefits of doing so.


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    #198
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users Posts: 7,548 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    n97 mini wrote:
    It's a fact, there's no debate. LPT transfers are from urban to rural, and even An Post just recently attributed the latest price rise on the cost of a stamp to rural deliveries. Just two of many examples.


    Interesting that you picking An Post as an example. Are you privy in information we aren't? I mean, the USO includes a broad range of services, many of which can be attributed to rising costs. How do you know it's purely the delivery to rural areas that's been driving the cost of stamps up, not just this year but steadily over the last few years? Why could it not have been cross border deliveries, or the free postage for the blind, both of which come under USO?


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    #199
    darlett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭darlett


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Do some research. As n97mini points out, it's a fact. Cost of delivery of a letter in Dublin is half the price of a stamp. In rural Ireland, it's double the price.

    Are you frigging kidding me? I mention rising rents/house prices and congestion. And you come back to me with something about half the price of...STAMPS? Because in rural Ireland it's double...

    Congratulations, you are a thread winner. :pac:


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    #200
    appfry
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    What? hive off old people into rural isolation?

    Sounds like a horrendous policy


    It really disgusts me when I hear people wanting to abuse old people like this.
    People who have paid a few years of tax somehow think they get the right to move on all the people who have paid a lifetime of tax (with harder jobs and higher tax rates too) off to the edge of the country so that they can have a cheaper house or pay less tax themselves.

    The entitled generation indeed.


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    #201
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    appfry wrote: »
    It really disgusts me when I hear people wanting to abuse old people like this.
    People who have paid a few years of tax somehow think they get the right to move on all the people who have paid a lifetime of tax (with harder jobs and higher tax rates too) off to the edge of the country so that they can have a cheaper house or pay less tax themselves.

    The entitled generation indeed.

    Careful now. All the elderly and those on the dole will be getting ready now to take all the seats on the trains, buses and Dart from those who are net contributors!


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    #202
    appfry
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭appfry


    Donal55 wrote: »
    Careful now. All the elderly and those on the dole will be getting ready now to take all the seats on the trains, buses and Dart from those who are net contributors!

    Im around mid 40s now. Ill be banned from the train soon enough. Might as well have my last few spins on it.


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    #203
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    darlett wrote: »
    Are you frigging kidding me? I mention rising rents/house prices and congestion. And you come back to me with something about half the price of...STAMPS? Because in rural Ireland it's double...
    calm down, darling. it's an example of a single service which on the face of it, costs 4 times as much to provide in rural areas.
    you happily ignored the other point in the same post, regarding provision of electricity.

    the stats are old, but there's no reason to believe they're not broadly similar today:
    "Attempts to curb one-off housing date to a 1976 study by An Foras Forbartha. The report, Urban Generated Housing in Rural Areas, contrasted the costs of servicing closely-knit development (five- metre house frontages) with dispersed residences (58-metre frontages).

    It found that mail delivery to the widely-dispersed housing is 3½ times more expensive. Waste collection costs are 2½ times greater. Phone and electricity connections are between two and five times more expensive. Footpath provision and public lighting are 11 to 13 times more expensive."
    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/downside-of-one-off-rural-housing-1.376468

    the issue in question is not people living outside the major population areas. it's the considerably denucleated character of the population.


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    #204
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    Ireland has no rural areas. It has the world's largest suburb made up of one off houses and ribbon developments.

    Rural Ireland was murdered by its own. This is the price we are all paying for Farmer Paddy's second-uncle's cousin in the planning office.


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    #205
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    ted1 wrote: »
    Why am i joking ? For ten years I was driving 50km a year, 2.5 years ago I changed jobs and am now office based, I have a 40km commute each day (20km each way) in Jan it'll increase to 70km each day or 1 hour 25 each way.

    I'm 16 stone in my late 30s. Cycling is a very legitimate form of transport

    So you cycle 40kms a day even if it's lashing rain or gail force wind? Really? :confused::confused:


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    #206
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,616 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's not that far - i used to do the same (google maps tells me it was about 44km a day - less than an hour each way on the bike, typically.
    my employer has good facilities for cyclists though.


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    #207
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    ClovenHoof wrote: »
    Rural Ireland was murdered by its own. This is the price we are all paying for Farmer Paddy's second-uncle's cousin in the planning office.

    And Fianna Fail, who have been pro rural settlement since Dev's time. Every time An Post (or anyone else) tries to bring rural costs down, their TDs start thinking about the next election and how that might damage their chances.

    http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/postal-deliveries-rural-households-could-8992837


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    #208
    Nomis21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i cannot take you seriously any more.

    I am serious about this...

    I am in my 60's, retired, and moved to Rural County Offaly from Dublin city recently.

    I knew no one in Offaly when I came here. I joined a hospitality exchange that I found online and am now hardly ever alone at home.

    Without internet I could not live where I do.


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    #209
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Nomis21 wrote: »
    I think if someone retires from work at 66 years old and is occupying a property in the city centre of Dublin they should get every encouragement to move into a remote area as they are benefiting society in the city and also by moving to a remote area they contribute financially to an area which likely is in need of some financial input.

    I have friends in their 60s who moved out to rural areas and commuted in their 40s. Now, needing local shops, in some case access to hospitals and other factors, they are moving back into the city.

    Nomis, what's a hospitality exchange, please?


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    #210
    darlett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭darlett


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    calm down, darlett. it's an example of a single service which on the face of it, costs 4 times as much to provide in rural areas.
    you happily ignored the other point in the same post, regarding provision of electricity.

    the stats are old, but there's no reason to believe they're not broadly similar today:
    "Attempts to curb one-off housing date to a 1976 study by An Foras Forbartha. The report, Urban Generated Housing in Rural Areas, contrasted the costs of servicing closely-knit development (five- metre house frontages) with dispersed residences (58-metre frontages).

    It found that mail delivery to the widely-dispersed housing is 3½ times more expensive. Waste collection costs are 2½ times greater. Phone and electricity connections are between two and five times more expensive. Footpath provision and public lighting are 11 to 13 times more expensive."
    http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/downside-of-one-off-rural-housing-1.376468

    Ok Magic. On the emotive subject of city dwellers subsidising people in one off houses let calmness reign. :)

    I don't know about the stamps, so I'll leave that to post office experts. I would query if a house say a mile or 2 away from a small town will put up prices 4 times, 3.5 times, or even double, but no doubt it is a cost built in to the price of stamps, a burden shared bravely by all. As Nomis21 mentions though the internet is a great help... and as such my annual national postage costs are fairly negligible.

    Waste collection costs. I'm not sure how much it actually costs in the city but we pay a private company for that one. I'm assuming you do too? Either way don't worry you don't subsidise those out in the sticks for that.

    Up to recently there was a flat rate of about €130 for a telephone connection. If someone builds somewhere that costs more than this than yes it is going to push up the costs so we all our providing a subsidy for this one off connection cost.

    When you need an ESB connection you tell them where you live and apply for a quote based on where you live, and you will pay the costs associated with connecting your house to grid. You don't subsidise those out in the sticks for that.

    Footpath provision and public lighting are...what now? Get away out of that, send me a picture. :pac:

    A couple more. We take care of our own sewerage needs. Not sure how that works in urban areas, maybe you do too.

    The cost of water supply. :rolleyes: Yes we have to go there. Safe to say the guy out in the sticks is more likely subsidising you than vice versa. By all accounts the water system is creaking with rusty pipes and the like which will seemingly cost absolute millions and millions to upgrade and maintain and which under the current system everybody contributes their taxes towards whether they paid for and maintain their own water well or not.

    This is the way a nation of tax-payers works, we all pay for things that might not seem to benefit us directly but your assertion that you're subsidising one off housing is heavily simple. I also believe that city life is improved and the cost of housing reduced by not having everybody living there...

    Apologies for any inaccuracies in these, I'm not sure what Eir costs are etc and I don't know about bin costs and sewerage in the city. I understood they used to be free for some, but perhaps not anymore?


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    #211
    Nomis21
    Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭Nomis21


    Keedowah wrote: »
    The Carrickmacross bus leaves at 6:45 and gets to Dublin at 8 - goes up the motorway and through the port tunnel - much faster than driving. - signed: Miserable Sob

    When I worked for Collins in 2007 it didn't!


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