Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

b_mac2 · 30-10-2016 09:15AM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Someone mentioned rape culture and consent classes in university earlier. There are no consent classes in irish universities. If men are dropping out of society because of imaginary classes then they've a lot of issues.

Most people I know haven't even heard of rape culture. The issue here is people searching for articles on rape culture so they can get angry about it. Just be like everyone else and ignore it.

Well a lot of them people are going to learn about "rape culture" on Tuesday night from- none other than our own- disillusioned- Louuuuise O'Neillllllll!!!

http://www.rte.ie/tv/realitybites/

silverharp · 30-10-2016 09:34AM

professore wrote: »

I'm glad I'm not on the market now. I can just see how it is - the asshole guys that women all swipe on are even more "assholish" and "confident" and the normal guy is made to feel even more like sh1t. And must be the same for girls, although for hookups men are far less picky than women.

My daughter ( she's 19 ) was on tinder for a while. Shes an attractive young woman. One of her male friends got hold of her phone, a guy who gets one swipe a month if he's lucky - he's no brad Pitt but a reasonable looking normal guy. He swipes right on pretty much every girl he sees on there to achieve this "result".

He swiped right on every guy on her profile, maybe 30 guys, before she caught him. Guess how many swiped right too? Yep, every single one of them.

He was seriously depressed after that exercise.

Tinder sounds like what happens if you bypass society. Ive kids growing up and I'd warn them about the downside of this, much better to build a social circle in real life. its a player's charter

Mister Vain · 30-10-2016 09:51AM

maregal wrote: »

Let him know what he's doing wrong as something is obviously not right if he's never had a gf by age 22.

22 is still young. I didn't get my first gf til I was 24. I felt ancient at the time granted but I wasn't really.

maregal wrote: »

Join meetup.com (this is the worst one. It's reaching meme status)

I'd have to disagree with you there. Anything that gets you out meeting people can only be a good thing. Personally I found it very beneficial and it did wonders for my confidence.

Richard Hillman · 30-10-2016 10:07AM

eviltwin wrote: »

He's only 22, most of my mates were single at 22. He has time. Telling him he's basically a lost cause because he's not an Adonis is not helpful. I hope he ignores that.

I feel for the guy but he has to accept nature taking its course. Lots of young males (and some females) are brainwashed into this false hope that there is someone for everyone. This is completely and utterly false. Films and TV shows also give these young males false hope.

I often read the Personal Issues forum which is inundated with young males (and some females) whining about being depressed because nobody wants to be involved in relationship with them. The advice these people are given is simply dreadful and dangerous.

Young males (and some females) need to just move on and accept that nature is their friend. Find other interests like Anime or Comic Books.

Owryan · 30-10-2016 10:07AM

maregal wrote: »

As soon as men try to form a support group to voice their concerns and worries in the Gentlemen's Club women barge in calling us "insane and delusional". What a nice person you are. Can men not have one corner of the internet to ourselves to talk openly?

Women initiate divorce 69% of the time btw. Source. That's over two thirds. A staggering figure. How many broken men have they left in their wake for the sake of a quick pay cheque? You can't deny the facts.

That source and it's findings mean nothing without the reasons for getting divorced. How many women got divorced because their partner was an abuser, cheated on them, walked out on them? Simply saying who initiated proceedings is at fault is meaningless without any context.

You seem fixated on the idea that everything can be blamed on women.

mzungu · 30-10-2016 10:18AM

Owryan wrote: »

That source and it's findings mean nothing without the reasons for getting divorced. How many women got divorced because their partner was an abuser, cheated on them, walked out on them? Simply saying who initiated proceedings is at fault is meaningless without any context.

You seem fixated on the idea that everything can be blamed on women.

Unfortunately, it is pretty much the MGTOW / Red Pill philosophy in a nutshell. The belief that all women are to blame for their problems in life.

Billy86 · 30-10-2016 10:21AM

maregal wrote: »

Male unemployment is up ... Males entering college is down ... Anecdotally, the amount of guys in their mid 20s still living at home, single, and unemployed or working a dead end minimum wage job is staggering.

Most of the rest of this post is equally applicable to men and women alike.

However these points in particular. You get into college based on your leaving cert points alone, I don't like that system at all being dyspraxic but it is what it is. Your leaving cert if I recall is marked by someone who knows you as nothing but a number. If women and men are outscoring men and boys it is because they are doing better. As a result, the person with the most points gets a better choice of courses. They are then more likely to wind up with a degree employers prefer. They are then more likely to have a better selection of jobs. They are then more likely to have better pay.

I work in admin at the moment, which is definitely a female dominated environment, and can at times be discriminatory against hiring males. However, I don't have a million years experience in it but got back from Canada on September 23rd and secured a job by October 6th in that field. How? I type at 74wpm, 14,500ksph, got 100 and 97 percent in word and excel tests, all of which took plenty of practice, and spent 10 hours a day doing nothing but applying for jobs and firebombing every recruitment agency in Dublin and beyond (think the total count was in the 30s) on top of spending hours and hours getting my CV laid out as good as possible, and being sure to tailor my cover letters. I had not done that previously and kept winding up in sales jobs that I was eager to get out of but had experience in, too often blaming gender discrimination.

On the other hand, I knew two women in Canada who wanted to get into construction but we're never taken seriously by companies. One was 5'0 and about 110lbs but one of the most freakishly strong people I've ever seen (she joined a gym for the first time a month ago and is squatting 250lbs, benching 180 and deadlocking over 300) while the other was 'country strong'... on top of being 6'2, 220lbs plus, and built like a brick sh*thouse. Both now work in admin... That discrimination can cut both ways, is my point.

My point? As many others have pointed out, you seem to be very self pitying. Instead, try working to improve your lot. Society, and the men and women in it, owe you sweet f*ck all and with it being a more competitive environment than E er nowadays, won't be giving you sweet f*ck all until you've earned it on merit yourself.

mzungu · 30-10-2016 10:25AM

Stoogie wrote: »

I don't wander round boards much but there seems to be a lot of women posting on the male issues section.
While that would be healthy in the " why can't I " or "what are they thinking " sections it surprises me here
If young men are feeling put upon then young men are feeeling put upon. It's sad but it's how they seem to be feeling.
With respect to the op and anyone feeling like he does : I'm sad that you feel that way but I feel giving up is not the answer. I believe that women find confidence "sexy"'and that won't come across in a tinder (other hookup apps are available ) photo. Learn to communicate and put yourselves out there. Becoming a wanker ( technical term) will not make you happy long term.

I think the best course of action for any young man feeling this way would be to talk it over with a professional who can steer them in the right direction. The big problem is, a lot instead turn to the Internet where they find the Red Pill guru type who spouts tripe about how it is women that are to blame for their problems. Some young folks are not critically aware enough to see it for the crapola that it is, and end up aping what these eejits say almost word for word.

TL;DR? If anybody is feeling alienated or disconnected from society, talk to an actual medical health professional, and not some snake oil salesman on the sub reddits.

Billy86 · 30-10-2016 10:30AM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

That's true but it wud be nice to have that amount of female attention once in a while.

This is a strange issue in Ireland to be honest, in Canada and Australia if a woman likes you she will make it known to you, either throwing herself at you (rarely), explicitly chatting you up (sometimes) or just introducing herself and giving you plenty of time etc to get the ball rolling.

Not sure if it's a Catholic thing or a traditionalist/parochial thing, or even just a habit of slut shaming or really what it is, but by comparison in Ireland the amount of times women I know have been swooning at a guy in their vicinity yet when asked "why don't you just go over to him" get almost offended that you would have the gall to suggest such a ridiculous idea would make you want to bang your head against a wall. Over and over and over. And over.

And over.

Olishi4 · 30-10-2016 10:36AM

I think on the surface "Men going their own way" sounds good, probably sounds like a good answer but it's not really going your own way is it? It has a nice ring to it though, sounds strong and independent and people would want to associate their identity with that especially if it seems that noone else understands them.

But in reality, the ideas behind it seem to promote blame, isolation and to further the distance between men and women who both have to live on the planet whether you like it or not. Its sounds like men who are defiant to become some sort of victim or martyrs of their own sexuality. Instead of investing so much effort in that, work on your confidence, just put yourself out there a bit more and try to make a conscious effort to not let little rejections get in on you. I know it can be hurtful but you don't even know the real reason for someone to reject you. Most of the time, they don't even know you. If you're feeling a bit sick of dating or whatever, take time for yourself and do things you enjoy and you might decide you are better that way but I don't see a need to join some group that will fill your head with resentfulness.

I don't know much about it but between that and whatever its equivalent wave of feminism is, its like two bitter people blinded in the middle of a divorce and everyone else is in the middle thinking "okay this is getting awkward"

Billy86 · 30-10-2016 10:44AM

Icemancometh wrote: »

To maregal, and I think you know this, the problem with your use of females, is that you used the word men in literally the same sentence. If you didn't mean it in a degaratory way, why didn't you refer to men as males as well?

To be honest, going by their other posts in this thread I think it was subconscious. Yet I also feel they'd be among the first to get offended if someone referred to them as a "white male". And in the same post they said it, they made a point of praising wibbs to the end of the world, ignoring the fact that wibbs also had a go at the use of the term 'females'.

Its evident throughout that there's just a staggering lack of self awareness and a superfluous amount of confirmation bias at play.

Billy86 · 30-10-2016 11:15AM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Well theres nothing local, town is dead but I'm gonna try moving to a bigger city. Couple that with toning up and I'm hoping it will help.

maregal wrote: »

I predict a lot of women posters will chime in with helpful advice but how many will practice what they preach and actually go on a date with you? Talk is cheap.

At the end of the day, looks are everything. A rich 6ft well-built rugby player will win over the nerdy shy guy without a car every time. You're making yourself miserable by chasing the impossible. My advice is find something you enjoy (video games, movies, camping) and focus your energy on that instead.

Dear Mr. Arrior... Please ignore everything maregal said there, it won't get you anywhere good.

For what it's worth, I turned 30 in July. I'm about 5'10, thin but not in great shape (hoping to get back to the gym come Friday since it's right next to my workplace, then again that's the story of my life :pac: ) and I'm naturally quite quiet, definitely not an extrovert I'm also dyspraxic and mildly bipolar, so I'm not always the most secure person in the world.

Anyway, up until I was about your age I was pretty shocking with women, couldn't even say Hi to them without at least having mutual friends involved. Long story short, I actually wound up reading one of those pua books out of desperation, can't remember the name of it, but having found out what that community is like since, was lucky as the author basically took the warning that "this is like me giving you a gun, be responsible with this info and don't be a dick". Obvious some of that was salesmanship, but the guy put a big emphasis into being respectful and what not rather than using that 'negging' type nonsense. In the end all that's really stuck with me is to ask plenty of opening questions, give thoughtful answers, use confident body language, speak from your diaphragm and most of all, cheesy and clichéd as it sounds ... Be yourself.

Its largely about what you project, and most women will tell you (and are being honest when they do) that grooming means more than natural looks - being nicely dressed, well kept, etc. That doesn't have to mean being done up to the nines, just looking as good as you can (or in some days, are arsed to be

) in the type of clothing you're comfy with. I'm currently writing this in Gatwick airport in a big, woolly jumper. F***ing love this jumper!

Its the same way you can have identical twin women, one who has a "sexy walk" and has herself done nicely more often than not, and another who looks like she showers once a week, has greasy hair etc and mopes/shuffles about the place whole facing the ground.

Just engage them a manner that says you're confident in yourself (that doesn't mean being extroverted or cocky or snything), be sure to use humour even if you think it might fall flat - it's another sign of confidence telling your joke or making your quip with an air of confidence that says "hopefully this entertains you, but if not... Oh well!", I reckon women don't find humour as attractive as they find the confidence it gives off as being so. Don't forget that the first move you make isn't going in for a kiss, it's more likely to be tapping them on the arm or holding their hand for some reason, and gauging if they are receptive or not - and if they're not, be sure to back away! And again, be yourself and be interesting... and by interesting, I mean what you find interesting and not what you think of or hope they will find interesting.

Won't give you immediate results, but you'll get better at it in time. Worked wonder for me... The reason I'm in Gatwick is because a 22 year old American college student with a very cute face, wicked sense of humour and body to die for has been constantly at me the last few weeks to come give her a 'casual visit'. It's going to sound arrogant but I don't care seeing as how I was an unwilling virgin until my early 20s... the last few years, I've become no stranger to the "how the f*ck is HE with HER!?!?" look.

And amazingly, my natural looks didn't really change much at all in that time. I don't earn crazy money. I'm quite fond of nerdy stuff and just finished building my first gaming pc about 2 weeks back (there's even a thread on it in the pc building forum, those lads are absolute gents!). So much for "it's 100% about looks" is my point. Please don't take that advise, it will get you absolutely nowhere but angry at seemingly every woman in the world.

That said, as I mentioned a few posts up, I find Irish women are less likely to show interest in you than in other countries, and that is in Dublin which I'm assuming you are not in. That's something I sometimes struggle with

Wibbs · 30-10-2016 11:17AM

Billy86 wrote: »

they made a point of praising wibbs to the end of the world.

Never a good indicator alright…

For me the MGTOW stuff has broadly speaking two types of men; those men who for various reasons choose not to get into serious long term relationships with women, but have the option to do so and men who feel, or actually have little choice in the matter to get into serious relationships with women. From what I can see the MGTOW "movement" itself is peopled far more by the second group than the first.

This group seem to come at it from the PUA angle first. Hoping I suppose to unlock the social code they haven't figured out yet and yep tired of the usual vague if well meaning nonsense of "be yourself/join a club/there's somebody for you"*. They try the various pickup "gurus" who promise the earth while spinning "systems" and platitudes. Part and parcel of this stuff is the Red Pill. So if the guy can't work the PUA stuff(and most can't), or does and gets the wrong women for his personality and is absorbing the Bro Science(™) of the Red Pill throughout, the understandable and safe conclusion is to eject completely. You can't be rejected if you don't engage in the first place. This increases disillusionment and the group think echo chamber exacerbates this to a sometimes socially pathological degree.

It is a worry that a) we're importing this gender war shíte and more b) that there are young men who feel so socially isolated and invisible that they're drifting towards this kinda thinking.

*the almost guaranteed response from women they may ask. Be yourself? How? And how does that help if "himself" is socially invisible? Join a club? OK, so he's still likely the socially inept lad, invisible in a group. There's somebody for you? Well given the billions out there that's on firmer ground on numbers alone, but... TBH I have found the vast majority of women have zero clue about the other side of the dating/mating dynamic. I wouldn't really expect them to TBH. It's kinda like if someone ever asks you for your moby number and you have to think about it. After all you don't ring yourself. Most men have zero clue either BTW. The "player" type just figures show up and it just happens, usually because he's physically/socially attractive outa the box. He doesn't know how to "do" that, so can't be relied upon to show another guy without those advantages. Saying "be confident"(which is 9 times outa 10 a bloke suggestion) is akin to telling a depressed person to happy up. So the clueless guy is at a serious disadvantage in what is generally speaking a sellers market for young women.

PucaMama · 30-10-2016 11:21AM

maregal wrote: »

Eh, what? Admit it - you didn't even read the OP. I couldn't be clearer that I do not want a relationship with women.

Time to also dispel this myth that it's only ugly bitter guys that follow MGTOW. Take Leonardo DiCaprio for example. One of Hollywood's best looking actors but he's wise enough to not get involved in a relationship. No point risking all his hard work and success on a woman who could destroy him. Look what happened to Brad Pitt. His nutter of an ex will take away his children and collect a hefty chunk of his earnings. When I say nutter I mean it - Angelina Jolie has been photographed kissing her own brother on the mouth and wearing a vial of her ex-boyfriend's blood around her neck. Brad Pitt learned the hard way that you'll be better off staying away from women.

If you don't want a woman why are you so concerned with them?

Wibbs · 30-10-2016 11:50AM

Billy86 wrote: »

Dear Mr. Arrior... Please ignore everything maregal said there, it won't get you anywhere good.

Good post, though I'll bypass the "be yourself" bit. :P:D

For men age makes a big difference too. I couldn't get arrested in my early twenties. Had some action, but was more luck than judgement. My thirties on the other hand… Hell, even my forties have been far more fruitful.

PucaMama wrote:

If you don't want a woman why are you so concerned with them?

I would imagine his angle is he doesn't want a serious long term marriage and kids relationship with a woman. Short term relationships/flings would be fine kinda thing.

Icemancometh · 30-10-2016 11:57AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Good post, though I'll bypass the "be yourself" bit. :P:D

For men age makes a big difference too. I couldn't get arrested in my early twenties. Had some action, but was more luck than judgement. My thirties on the other hand… Hell, even my forties have been far more fruitful.

I would imagine his angle is he doesn't want a serious long term marriage and kids relationship with a woman. Short term relationships/flings would be fine kinda thing.

I believe this is where the charming phrase pump and dump enters.

Billy86 · 30-10-2016 12:02PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Good post, though I'll bypass the "be yourself" bit. :P:D

For men age makes a big difference too. I couldn't get arrested in my early twenties. Had some action, but was more luck than judgement. My thirties on the other hand… Hell, even my forties have been far more fruitful.

I would imagine his angle is he doesn't want a serious long term marriage and kids relationship with a woman. Short term relationships/flings would be fine kinda thing.

Well yeah, you've a fair point. Might be better wording to say be confident in being yourself or some sh!te like that. Actuslly figured that one out in part by accident, getting lucky only when I wasn't trying and so wasn't prying to project any kind of image. It seems the less f*cks you have to give, the more it pays off.

Mr Arrior · 30-10-2016 12:16PM

Billy86 wrote:

This is a strange issue in Ireland to be honest, in Canada and Australia if a woman likes you she will make it known to you, either throwing herself at you (rarely), explicitly chatting you up (sometimes) or just introducing herself and giving you plenty of time etc to get the ball rolling.

Billy86 wrote:

Not sure if it's a Catholic thing or a traditionalist/parochial thing, or even just a habit of slut shaming or really what it is, but by comparison in Ireland the amount of times women I know have been swooning at a guy in their vicinity yet when asked "why don't you just go over to him" get almost offended that you would have the gall to suggest such a ridiculous idea would make you want to bang your head against a wall. Over and over and over. And over.

Billy86 wrote:

And over.

So true. Again, I don't blame women for this as its just how its goes nowadays but feck it would be nice if they would show their interest if they were interested. Id be very good at reading womens feelings like if they are upset and how to cheer them up etc but I am completely lost when it comes to whether they are interested romantically.

Mr Arrior · 30-10-2016 12:19PM

Billy86 wrote:

Dear Mr. Arrior... Please ignore everything maregal said there, it won't get you anywhere good.

Billy86 wrote:

For what it's worth, I turned 30 in July. I'm about 5'10, thin but not in great shape (hoping to get back to the gym come Friday since it's right next to my workplace, then again that's the story of my life ) and I'm naturally quite quiet, definitely not an extrovert I'm also dyspraxic and mildly bipolar, so I'm not always the most secure person in the world.

Billy86 wrote:

Anyway, up until I was about your age I was pretty shocking with women, couldn't even say Hi to them without at least having mutual friends involved. Long story short, I actually wound up reading one of those pua books out of desperation, can't remember the name of it, but having found out what that community is like since, was lucky as the author basically took the warning that "this is like me giving you a gun, be responsible with this info and don't be a dick". Obvious some of that was salesmanship, but the guy put a big emphasis into being respectful and what not rather than using that 'negging' type nonsense. In the end all that's really stuck with me is to ask plenty of opening questions, give thoughtful answers, use confident body language, speak from your diaphragm and most of all, cheesy and clichÃ©d as it sounds ... Be yourself.

Billy86 wrote:

Its largely about what you project, and most women will tell you (and are being honest when they do) that grooming means more than natural looks - being nicely dressed, well kept, etc. That doesn't have to mean being done up to the nines, just looking as good as you can (or in some days, are arsed to be ) in the type of clothing you're comfy with. I'm currently writing this in Gatwick airport in a big, woolly jumper. F***ing love this jumper!

Billy86 wrote:

Its the same way you can have identical twin women, one who has a "sexy walk" and has herself done nicely more often than not, and another who looks like she showers once a week, has greasy hair etc and mopes/shuffles about the place whole facing the ground.

Billy86 wrote:

Just engage them a manner that says you're confident in yourself (that doesn't mean being extroverted or cocky or snything), be sure to use humour even if you think it might fall flat - it's another sign of confidence telling your joke or making your quip with an air of confidence that says "hopefully this entertains you, but if not... Oh well!", I reckon women don't find humour as attractive as they find the confidence it gives off as being so. Don't forget that the first move you make isn't going in for a kiss, it's more likely to be tapping them on the arm or holding their hand for some reason, and gauging if they are receptive or not - and if they're not, be sure to back away! And again, be yourself and be interesting... and by interesting, I mean what you find interesting and not what you think of or hope they will find interesting.

Billy86 wrote:

Won't give you immediate results, but you'll get better at it in time. Worked wonder for me... The reason I'm in Gatwick is because a 22 year old American college student with a very cute face, wicked sense of humour and body to die for has been constantly at me the last few weeks to come give her a 'casual visit'. It's going to sound arrogant but I don't care seeing as how I was an unwilling virgin until my early 20s... the last few years, I've become no stranger to the "how the f*ck is HE with HER!?!?" look.

Billy86 wrote:

And amazingly, my natural looks didn't really change much at all in that time. I don't earn crazy money. I'm quite fond of nerdy stuff and just finished building my first gaming pc about 2 weeks back (there's even a thread on it in the pc building forum, those lads are absolute gents!). So much for "it's 100% about looks" is my point. Please don't take that advise, it will get you absolutely nowhere but angry at seemingly every woman in the world.

Billy86 wrote:

That said, as I mentioned a few posts up, I find Irish women are less likely to show interest in you than in other countries, and that is in Dublin which I'm assuming you are not in. That's something I sometimes struggle with

Thanks for the reply. The best way seems to be pretend you are confident and a happy person. Fake it till ya make. I may start trying to adopt that style from now on.

Mister Vain · 30-10-2016 12:23PM

Billy86 wrote: »

I find Irish women are less likely to show interest in you than in other countries.

I've noticed that too. I would also add that its very difficult to show an interest in them without coming across too forward. It's almost like a default "Woah you wanna shag me" reaction. From my experience its definitely different in other countries where people are just more upfront with each other. Although you will get mad feckers everywhere.

Mr Arrior · 30-10-2016 12:35PM

Mister Vain wrote:

I've noticed that too. I would also add that its very difficult to show an interest in them without coming across too forward. It's almost like a default "Woah you wanna shag me" reaction. From my experience its definitely different in other countries where people are just more upfront with each other. Although you will get mad feckers everywhere.

Again very true. Ideally, asking a woman out is the best way as it leaves no doubt in her mind that a guy likes her. But the culture means that that is an odd thing to do for some reason.

Mister Vain · 30-10-2016 12:40PM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Again very true. Ideally, asking a woman out is the best way as it leaves no doubt in her mind that a guy likes her. But the culture means that that is an odd thing to do for some reason.

Yeah its just not the done thing here. I have met some absolutely stunning down to earth Irish women but I find the dating scene in this country to be really hard work. Having dated some Eastern European women, I find their way of doing things to be a lot more laid back. There are disadvantages too of course but overall its just easier and less of a head melt.

seenitall · 30-10-2016 01:27PM

Mister Vain wrote: »

Yeah its just not the done thing here. I have met some absolutely stunning down to earth Irish women but I find the dating scene in this country to be really hard work. Having dated some Eastern European women, I find their way of doing things to be a lot more laid back. There are disadvantages too of course but overall its just easier and less of a head melt.

That works (or doesn't work, as chance would have it) the other way around, too. I am from the continent originally, and have never, ever had any substantial success with any Irish guy in my 16 years living here. In that time I managed to rack up a brief marriage and a fun relationship with 2 different men, neither one of them Irish. I'll tell you what, IRISH MEN DON'T APPROACH. Unless they are full to the brim of Dutch courage, of course, and that simply doesn't work for me, as I don't drink. So that seems to be the end of it in my case, unfortunately.

Every time I have spent a bit of nice and fun time with a Spanish man, for example, honestly I get this feeling that reminds me of home (Eastern Europe), where things just go smoothly, no one is embarrassed by their interest or needs to get off their face hammered to do something about it. It is all just so natural and warm and respectful (of course you also get dicks of both sexes in any nationality, but in other nationalities there is just so much less hostility and distrust between the sexes from the get go like there is over here, and there is less acceptance of drunken boorish sexual advances as the approach method, so people just don't operate in that manner, in the main). It is like a slow enjoyable dance between two people getting to know one another, showing equal interest, in an equal give and take, like a languorous Viennese waltz. (Or it can be a vigorous quickstep, on occasion!)

But the thing is, yes, men are still expected to do the initial approaching, both here and there. This is not MY unwritten rule - I truly wish that werent so, in fact, as I am a proactive person, but any time I have tried initiating with a man I have fallen flat on my face, and have realised that all the good experiences for me have started with a man who wasn't afraid of showing his interest, and was only delighted to find me reciprocating. No mind games, no drama, no analysis needed.

Both sexes here still need to learn that expressing romantic and sexual interest is not a mortal sin, it is not dirty, it is not wrong. It is fun and enjoyable and full of potential. And it definitely does not need 10 pints of reinforcement to master!

Mr Arrior · 30-10-2016 01:44PM

I actually don't drink, never touched a drop and at this stage I'm confident talking to women without it, however its the initial approaching women, I struggle with. Its the feeling that they are so busy they don't want to be bothered etc. I can honestly say that no woman has ever made the first move regarding myself.

riffmongous · 30-10-2016 01:53PM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

I actually don't drink, never touched a drop and at this stage I'm confident talking to women without it, however its the initial approaching women, I struggle with. Its the feeling that they are so busy they don't want to be bothered etc. I can honestly say that no woman has ever made the first move regarding myself.

Any clubs, groups you can join where everyone is more relaxed? You can just chat get to know people a bit (don't get too friendly or wait too long) then invite them to do something together. Groups with a lot of people who are foreign or new to the area are better imo as the people will have less ties and will be more open to spending time with others

py2006 · 30-10-2016 01:56PM

seenitall wrote: »

I'll tell you what, IRISH MEN DON'T APPROACH. Unless they are full to the brim of Dutch courage, of course, and that simply doesn't work for me, as I don't drink. So that seems to be the end of it in my case, unfortunately.

There is a reason for the dutch courage. I was never the guy to walk up to a strange girl with a chat up line or whatever. But I have observed it a zillion times and I feel sorry for the guys. They are nervous.

I've seen guys get treated like sh1t, insulted, referred to as a creep etc or at the very least a dirty look. Its like they take it as an insult that somebody that isn't their type tries to speak them.

I even recall a situation were a girl thought I was coming on to her but I wasn't. I was sitting at a table next to her and I saw her jacket fall of chair. I picked it up and said, "sorry you jacket was on the floor" and handed it to her. I got a dirty look and I heard her whisper, "creep" to her friends.

Now I know you will get the overly drunk annoying guys too but its a difficult situation for most guys.

seenitall · 30-10-2016 02:00PM

Mr Arrior wrote: »

I actually don't drink, never touched a drop and at this stage I'm confident talking to women without it, however its the initial approaching women, I struggle with. Its the feeling that they are so busy they don't want to be bothered etc. I can honestly say that no woman has ever made the first move regarding myself.

You sound lovely and I am sure you will be just fine in every regard, Mr Arrior. What you may not realise is that at 22-23 there is a LOT of change ahead of you yet, both in your life's circumstances and in your character. Let it all happen as it comes, but try to not ever lose your sweet enthusiasm for romance and all the good stuff that can happen when two people "click"

When I was your age, I started travelling and it was the making of me. No formal education can give you as much insight into yourself or expand your horizons in every way, as much as travel can. It helped me grow into myself, and crucially, gain more and more confidence about who I was, what I had to offer and what I wanted to be doing in life. It really builds character and once you start truly loving yourself, the world will be your oyster - a person who has faith in themselves sees no obstacles, only opportunities

but it is vital to test yourself in life, in order to get there.

Mr Arrior · 30-10-2016 02:20PM

seenitall wrote: »

You sound lovely and I am sure you will be just fine in every regard, Mr Arrior. What you may not realise is that at 22-23 there is a LOT of change ahead of you yet, both in your life's circumstances and in your character. Let it all happen as it comes, but try to not ever lose your sweet enthusiasm for romance and all the good stuff that can happen when two people "click"

When I was your age, I started travelling and it was the making of me. No formal education can give you as much insight into yourself or expand your horizons in every way, as much as travel can. It helped me grow into myself, and crucially, gain more and more confidence about who I was, what I had to offer and what I wanted to be doing in life. It really builds character and once you start truly loving yourself, the world will be your oyster - a person who has faith in themselves sees no obstacles, only opportunities but it is vital to test yourself in life, in order to get there.

Thank you

RDM_83 again · 30-10-2016 02:40PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Mr Arrior wrote: »

That's true but it wud be nice to have that amount of female attention once in a while.

This is a strange issue in Ireland to be honest, in Canada and Australia if a woman likes you she will make it known to you, either throwing herself at you (rarely), explicitly chatting you up (sometimes) or just introducing herself and giving you plenty of time etc to get the ball rolling.

Not sure if it's a Catholic thing or a traditionalist/parochial thing, or even just a habit of slut shaming or really what it is, but by comparison in Ireland the amount of times women I know have been swooning at a guy in their vicinity yet when asked "why don't you just go over to him" get almost offended that you would have the gall to suggest such a ridiculous idea would make you want to bang your head against a wall. Over and over and over. And over.

And over.

For the Canada thing doesn't that make very little sense? Not single and not been there long but Toronto for example definitely has a strong puritanical historic influence that's still visible today and Canada itself seems to be at the forefront of the current PC/SJW/Gender wars thing.

Are you sure it isn't just a grass is always greener thing?like Dublin isn't a hard place to be single for a capitol city people are very chatty and non irish definitely don't find it that way either

RDM_83 again · 30-10-2016 02:56PM

seenitall wrote: »

That works (or doesn't work, as chance would have it) the other way around, too. I am from the continent originally, and have never, ever had any substantial success with any Irish guy in my 16 years living here. In that time I managed to rack up a brief marriage and a fun relationship with 2 different men, neither one of them Irish. I'll tell you what, IRISH MEN DON'T APPROACH. Unless they are full to the brim of Dutch courage, of course, and that simply doesn't work for me, as I don't drink. So that seems to be the end of it in my case, unfortunately.

Every time I have spent a bit of nice and fun time with a Spanish man, for example, honestly I get this feeling that reminds me of home (Eastern Europe), where things just go smoothly, no one is embarrassed by their interest or needs to get off their face hammered to do something about it. It is all just so natural and warm and respectful (of course you also get dicks of both sexes in any nationality, but in other nationalities there is just so much less hostility and distrust between the sexes from the get go like there is over here, and there is less acceptance of drunken boorish sexual advances as the approach method, so people just don't operate in that manner, in the main).

Is this true? I've hung around with a lot of eastern European lads and visited it a bunch and there definitely seems to be a bit of resentment towards women in the dating scene particularly because women tend to take a materialistic outlook, on the flipside you read boards and you have Irish guys talking about how they like EE women because they are more traditional.

On the Latin/romance countries yeah there is probably a lot more sober approaching but according to my female friends from those regions the Anglo-sphere has far far less harassment and toleration for harassment.

In relation to the sober approaching thing, yeah it's not the Irish way but it seems hypocritical to complain about that while also reacting really negatively to aspects of PUA like day gaming etc
(And to be honest a lot of PUA is like a forced version of the Latin man "machismo" thing)

Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

Comments