Siege of Jadotville

Jesus. · 12-10-2016 12:53PM

4ensic that's not the first time you've suggested myself and Cft are the same person. If a Mod is reading this could they set the record straight? It should be quite easy to do with a quick IP address check.

Regarding what Cft said about you being too emotionally attached to the subject I think he is spot on, 4ensic. So too is Quinlan's niece (understandably). When I heard her on Pat Kenny's show that was enough for me. There was no need for me to read the book after that interview. Her mission was to exonerate her Uncle not detached analysis.

happyfriday74 · 12-10-2016 09:22PM

Thanks guys. Got Powers book in the end. Still have another book to close out before I start it but will let you know how it goes

Manic Moran · 13-10-2016 01:55AM

[Mod]OK, 4ensic. I've already PMd you that the IP and email checks don't come close. Let it go.[/Mod]

Cft · 13-10-2016 04:40PM

Anyway gents, what is the general opinion on the film, after all the exchanges about the action and written accounts etc, etc, does the film do justice to reflecting the events?

I can spot a number of errors, being the bit of a military pedant that I am, but I will admit I got engrossed very quickly in the pacing of the action of the film.

I think read a few comments somewhere about the absence of helmets. But for me, the construction and depth of the trenches were interesting

Jesus...you'd certainly be right about not being able to avoid casualties with those little shell-scrapes to shelter in!!!

4ensic15, I'd be curious as to you impression of the film. You genuinely seem to care, so I'd be interested in your opinion, personal or otherwise.

Overall, it seems both the surviving veterans of A Coy and the Quinlan family are happy which sort of sums it up for me. Personally, I'm pleased in that it shows a broader community the nature and quality of the Irish soldier in adversity.

On another note, and I never really thought too much about it before until I watched the film, but there is an element of me thinking...what the hell did we bother getting mixed up in the Congo in the first place. We are probably lucky we didn't lose more men.

Despite having read Michael Kennedy's excellent book on our involvement in the Congo, I am still largely bemused as to why we effectively blundered into something where the jury is out on whether we did the right thing politically. But nevertheless, am still glad we did in that it helped us grow as a nation and allowed our defence forces grow professionally.

To use an appropriate modern word...I'm 'conflicted'

What about the rest of yous?

Lemming · 13-10-2016 06:05PM

I enjoyed the film; it keeps a good pace although I think that it may have been better produced as a mini-series, getting time to explore the wider goings-on in the Congo and perhaps fleshing out the men a little more along with the whole not-rushing-the-capture bit. But all that said, they managed to adapt the event into a coherent film format whilst keeping reasonably true to life all within the confines of a couple of hours.

I've watched it twice, so it gets a thumbs up from me.

Jesus. · 13-10-2016 08:44PM

A miniseries would be a non-runner Lemmings. Not enough money and little interest. I thought it was a good film. The General was McAntee but I thought 'twas McKeown who was in charge out there?

Its just such a pity they didn't win that battle. I'll never shake the feeling that the Katangans were on the cusp of breaking.

Heraldoffreeent · 13-10-2016 10:19PM

Jesus. wrote: »

A miniseries would be a non-runner Lemmings. Not enough money and little interest. I thought it was a good film. The General was McAntee but I thought 'twas McKeown who was in charge out there?

Its just such a pity they didn't win that battle. I'll never shake the feeling that the Katangans were on the cusp of breaking.

Poetic licence there, MacAntee was CCO'Bs wifes name, Quinlan wouldn't have been in contact with McKeown directly, but to McNamee, who was the Batallion OC and a Colonel.

A bit like the dependable Sgt, the lack of focus on officers, and Quinlan getting shot.
Also I think there was a Thompson-Ford Armoured car or two with them, and it was a vickers from one of these that spattered the Fouga and not an overturned jeep.

Jesus. · 13-10-2016 10:36PM

Poetic licence is necessary in films. I just don't get the point of McAntee instead of McNamee!

Heraldoffreeent · 13-10-2016 10:40PM

Jesus. wrote: »

Poetic licence is necessary in films. I just don't get the point of McAntee instead of McNamee!

Inside joke re the Cruisers wife, who knows?

Jesus. · 13-10-2016 11:13PM

Must be

Stovepipe · 14-10-2016 05:56PM

Points to note: the Fougas (at least two different aircraft) were flown by two pilots, one of whom was an ex-RAF veteran, a Belgian. He stated that it was the accuracy and intensity of the small-arms fire recieved on each attack run that forced them to climb higher, not just one isolated hit from an armoured car. They were dropping homemade bombs, as they had been unable to get proper bombs and rocket pods in time to fight the UN.

Jesus. · 14-10-2016 09:04PM

I believe you Stovepipe but any chance you have a link?

Heraldoffreeent · 14-10-2016 11:13PM

Stovepipe wrote: »

Points to note: the Fougas (at least two different aircraft) were flown by two pilots, one of whom was an ex-RAF veteran, a Belgian. He stated that it was the accuracy and intensity of the small-arms fire recieved on each attack run that forced them to climb higher, not just one isolated hit from an armoured car. They were dropping homemade bombs, as they had been unable to get proper bombs and rocket pods in time to fight the UN.

As far as I know, only one Fouga was involved in Jado. It was flown by Joseph Deulin.

The Katangans ordered 9, of which only three were delivered in February 1961, one of these obviously was the Jado Fouga, the second was crashed when the pilot tried to fly under powerlines. The third was seized when the UN took the airfield at Elisabethville on the 28th of August 1961, Jadot as we know didn't happen until September.

The Jado Fouga escaped capture because it flew out of Kolwezi. As far as I'm aware this was all the Katangans had in terms of Jet Airpower until after Dec 1961, when more Fougas arrived along with some Vampires and a handful of P-51 mustangs.

Stovepipe · 15-10-2016 09:39PM

Jean Zumbach claimed to have been the pilot of the Fouga, which did more than just attack at Jadotville. He was also associated with flying B26s in other African operations.

OzCam · 21-10-2016 09:41PM

For anyone who can attend, there's a wreath laying ceremony at 14:00 tomorrow, 22-Oct-2016, at The National Museum, Collins Barracks, Dublin.

All veterans and members of the public are invited to attend.

The schedule of events is available on FaceBook at "The Jadotville Heroes" page. Unfortunately it was published as a photo...
https://www.facebook.com/1825329891020126/photos/pcb.1838057979747317/1838057366414045/?type=3&theater

Manic Moran · 23-10-2016 05:32PM

Is there any precedence to the concept of using a Bren as a DMR. It does seem at least feasible that a heavy, bipod equipped iron sight weapon will be more useful than a free held optic rifle in some class, and I'm wondering where they got the idea.

Manic Moran · 23-10-2016 05:32PM

Is there any precedence to the concept of using a Bren as a DMR. It does seem at least feasible that a heavy, bipod equipped iron sight weapon will be more useful than a free held optic rifle in some class, and I'm wondering where they got the idea.

OzCam · 23-10-2016 10:58PM

Former BREN gunners may reply in due course, but I'm told that it was quite common. When fitted with a new barrel, they were very accurate. So much so that the barrels were preferred for supressive or grazing fire after they'd had a few hundred rounds through them as you got a better scatter.

I'll see if I can find you a gunner to confirm first hand.

gizmo555 · 24-10-2016 08:34AM

A radio documentary from 2004 on Jadotville, with interviews with a number of veterans was rebroadcast on RTÉ Radio yesterday (23/10/16).

You can listen back to it here:

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2009/0701/646158-jadotoville/

AbusesToilets · 24-10-2016 09:31PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there any precedence to the concept of using a Bren as a DMR. It does seem at least feasible that a heavy, bipod equipped iron sight weapon will be more useful than a free held optic rifle in some class, and I'm wondering where they got the idea.

You have Carlos Hathcock using the M2 in single shot during Vietnam.

Stovepipe · 26-10-2016 11:57AM

or enterprising Brits and Aussies using the Boys rifle in the desert as a sniping/antimaterial rifle. One round into a german truck or field car's engine and it was junk. Similar anecdotes for Russian PTRD out there.

OzCam · 26-10-2016 12:10PM

Also, bear in mind boys, when you're talking to Manic anything less than 120mm is smallbore.

brickmauser · 26-10-2016 12:15PM

Cft wrote: »

Anyway gents, what is the general opinion on the film, after all the exchanges about the action and written accounts etc, etc, does the film do justice to reflecting the events?

I can spot a number of errors, being the bit of a military pedant that I am, but I will admit I got engrossed very quickly in the pacing of the action of the film.

I think read a few comments somewhere about the absence of helmets. But for me, the construction and depth of the trenches were interesting Jesus...you'd certainly be right about not being able to avoid casualties with those little shell-scrapes to shelter in!!!

4ensic15, I'd be curious as to you impression of the film. You genuinely seem to care, so I'd be interested in your opinion, personal or otherwise.

Overall, it seems both the surviving veterans of A Coy and the Quinlan family are happy which sort of sums it up for me. Personally, I'm pleased in that it shows a broader community the nature and quality of the Irish soldier in adversity.

On another note, and I never really thought too much about it before until I watched the film, but there is an element of me thinking...what the hell did we bother getting mixed up in the Congo in the first place. We are probably lucky we didn't lose more men.

Despite having read Michael Kennedy's excellent book on our involvement in the Congo, I am still largely bemused as to why we effectively blundered into something where the jury is out on whether we did the right thing politically. But nevertheless, am still glad we did in that it helped us grow as a nation and allowed our defence forces grow professionally.

To use an appropriate modern word...I'm 'conflicted' What about the rest of yous?

Ireland only got involved in Congo because Conor Cruise O'Brien was angling to further his UN career and because the Irish goverment at the time was part of the non aligned bloc of UN states. Taking part in the UN Congo mission against the neo colonial presence in Katanga was a continuation of Ireland's assertion of Independence in foreign affairs going back to the Emergency when we refused to take part in WW2.
The American Right plus the Belgians and the British supported Katanga because it was pro-Western. Tsombe - was actually a progressive African leader - while Lumumba was a Communist schill.
In the end Congo renamed Zaire was run by the pro-Western Mobuto who put down all political opposition from the likes of Tsombe and others.
The West wanted the mineral wealthy Zaire to keep flowing regardless of whether Mobuto was a kleptocratic dictator and Soviet influence was extinguished.
The socialist aspirations of Lumumba or the liberal progressive pro-capitalist Tsombe had to go.
O'Brien's involvement was shamelessly about himself and his UN career.
He ordered the Jadotville adventure and when it proved disasterous - A Company might have been annihilated to the last man - it was Quinlan and his men who got the blame.

ohnonotgmail · 26-10-2016 12:19PM

OzCam wrote: »

Also, bear in mind boys, when you're talking to Manic anything less than 120mm is smallbore.

and dont dare mention that new-fangled rifling nonsense. It is smoothbore or nothing as far as he is concerned.

greeny24 · 26-10-2016 04:14PM

Hey,
I watched this movie and read up a little bit on the subject too and while it's an amazing story I do wonder...
How was it the Mercs and supporting troops were so bad? I can't work out how many troops they had as each time I read something on the subject the number changes.

The Mercs were experienced troops who had real combat experience under the command of Rene Faulques.
I know that the Irish were well dug in and that alot of the opposing army couldn't really be considered soldiers but I still struggle to understand how we weren't slaughtered.

Why did Rene only attack from one position? Why wasn't the town surrounded?
Can't seem to find alot on rene faulques online but from what I did find he was a well respected and in demand merc, if this is true, why does it seem that in this case, he no tactical awareness?
note, I have no military knowledge and only a slight interest in military history, but I really want to understand how a battle can play out like this.

Am I missing something here, anyone have any knowledge of military tactics that can help me out?

brickmauser · 27-10-2016 09:57AM

greeny24 wrote: »

Hey,
I watched this movie and read up a little bit on the subject too and while it's an amazing story I do wonder...
How was it the Mercs and supporting troops were so bad? I can't work out how many troops they had as each time I read something on the subject the number changes.

The Mercs were experienced troops who had real combat experience under the command of Rene Faulques.
I know that the Irish were well dug in and that alot of the opposing army couldn't really be considered soldiers but I still struggle to understand how we weren't slaughtered.

Why did Rene only attack from one position? Why wasn't the town surrounded?
Can't seem to find alot on rene faulques online but from what I did find he was a well respected and in demand merc, if this is true, why does it seem that in this case, he no tactical awareness?
note, I have no military knowledge and only a slight interest in military history, but I really want to understand how a battle can play out like this.

Am I missing something here, anyone have any knowledge of military tactics that can help me out?

The Irish had rosary beads?

Jesus. · 30-10-2016 09:27AM

greeny24 wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

The Mercs were commanding African militia and they were probably hard to control. Coordinated attacks with such troops may well have been nigh on impossible.

brickmauser · 30-10-2016 07:42PM

Jesus. wrote: »

The Mercs were commanding African militia and they were probably hard to control. Coordinated attacks with such troops may well have been nigh on impossible.

The attackers would be running in the open and visible from hundreds of yards away or flopping down to fire or crouching to shoot from the hip with the muzzle flash giving their position away.
The Irish would had little difficulty in cutting them down and thinning their numbers when they came on.

The Irish would have been well protected in their trenches with much of the enemy gun fire hitting harmlessly short in front of their positions or overshooting. It would have been incredible bad luck to get a bullet in the head or for their positions to take a direct a hit from a shell or mortar.

Muppet Man · 05-11-2016 05:45PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is there any precedence to the concept of using a Bren as a DMR. It does seem at least feasible that a heavy, bipod equipped iron sight weapon will be more useful than a free held optic rifle in some class, and I'm wondering where they got the idea.

Hi manic, regarding Bren accuracy... at 300 yards, it was very easy to place single shots into the 12 " bull of a 4 foot target (even on full auto, single shots were accidentally easy). In fact bursts of 2 would easily group into 12 inches at that distance when the weapon was held right. We weren't allowed fire them from further back than 300 yards, but the weapon was extremely accurate. For competitions and practice leading up to competitions we often fired with the spare barrel as it had less rounds fired through it and we always argued that the extra tightness of the barrel (or better defined rifling) would give us an extra 5 or 10 points... Really hard to know for sure if that was actually the case, but theory made us feel better on competition day.

It was tough enough lugging it around though and the final practice was the "run up" from 325 yards and 225 yards... 30 seconds each from targets up. You'd be pretty bollixed after it.

Muppet man

Stovepipe · 05-11-2016 07:45PM

MM has previous form as an FCA man..

Siege of Jadotville

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