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Siege of Jadotville

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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Whatever about factual errors, the sequence of events is poor.
    There is an introduction followed by a background which reesults in going backwards in time within the first page. It is also nonsense to say from jadotville that the safety of troops took precedence over the UN mission. QUinlan could not achieve his mission or any mission in the position he was in when he stopped fighting. Kane at the Lufira bridge had no possibility of accomplishing his mission give the resources at his disposal. The analysis of the events is nonsense and does not support the proposition for which it is advanced.

    That is not nonsense. That is true.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    You've a funny idea of what comprises hard evidence.

    So far you have said:

    Irish killed up to 2000 attackers - you were wrong about that.

    Enemy had 105mm Artillery - you were wrong about that.

    that the jet was armed with:
    * 2x 7.5 mm or 7.62 mm machine guns, 200 rounds/gun
    * Up to 140 kg (310 lb) of weapons on two underwing hardpoints, including 50 kg (110 lb) bombs, unguided rockets, and Nord Aviation SS.11 anti-tank missiles.
    - you were wrong about that ( and also missed out the fact that bombs dropped by the jet fell on the evacuated garage area and so caused zero casualties.....)

    That there were no forward observers - there were, wrong again.

    That the forward observers did not spot the assembly of the attackers - when there are clear reports including radio logs, that they did - wrong again.

    That the Fouga "drive bombing with its machine guns..."
    It didn't - it maintained high altitude after being hit by LA fire - you were wrong again.

    That Mike Hoare was ex SAS - he wasn't - wrong again.

    It doesn't look like you have bothered reading up on Jadotville nor even read what people are posting.

    I don't think Hoare was present in Jadotville


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Matpuk4321 wrote: »
    Quinlan was o/c cathal Brugha back in the early 70s when I served in the 2nd inf bn, he was as I remember a much feared character and was extreamly abrasive when conversing with private soldiers and nco's his nik name was'. Jadovill Jack' and we young guns were told by the old sweats that Quinlan had raised the white flag in the Congo and caused his men to be taken prisoner, well it's good to see that the record has been put right and his Google name has been restored. But why did it have to take nearly 50 years to get the thing right?

    Because while he was in captivity after the siege, the spin doctors who had caused the whole debacle got to work. They did not want to answer questions as to why Quinland was sent to Jadotville after the Swedes pulled out saying it was indefensible. Why Quinlan was sent in such a rush he had to leave important weapons behind. why there was no effective plan in place to extract him if anything went wrong. Why there was no effective attempt to relieve him when trouble started. Why he was abandoned without orders.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    It is also nonsense to say from jadotville that the safety of troops took precedence over the UN mission.

    4ensic that contradicts what you said earlier in the thread

    4ensic15 wrote: »
    The Irish were on a peacekeeping mission. They were not fighting for their country or glory. They were there to help out as fra as reasonably possible. That meant their own lives came ahead of the locals whom they were attempting to help.
    The notion that it was anything other than sensible or rational to do anything other than bring all of the men home alive is ludicrous.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Was in Sweden over the weekend, and some chap was assuring me that he did a paper on Jadotville because a Swedish platoon was in with the Irish, they were captured and held for a while as well.

    Can't say I've ever heard of it. Is it true, and if so do they show up in the movie?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Was in Sweden over the weekend, and some chap was assuring me that he did a paper on Jadotville because a Swedish platoon was in with the Irish, they were captured and held for a while as well.

    Can't say I've ever heard of it. Is it true, and if so do they show up in the movie?

    The Swedish pilot and co-pilot were captured and held.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well there you go, Ted.

    Sounds like we're wasting taxpayer's money sending these guys off to foreign shores to learn when everything they need to know about soldiering can be found right here on boards.

    Any theses passing muster here would obviously be good enough for Ft Leavenworth ;)

    Maybe Fort Leavenworth want drivel. They want to portray a particular image. That thesis was nothing to do with soldiering. It was supposedly and attempt to divine a policy from an analysis of events. I know army officers are supposed to be stupid but that takes the biscuit.
    Oh, rubbish. Leavenworth is a professional academic institution which wants us to learn. I just submitted my sentence outline for my next paper (i.e., it's a sanity check before I submit the real one), the question was "From your readings and coursework (though external sources are permitted), why were the British military technologically behind at the beginning of WW2??"
    The coursework indicates it was primarily because of a lack of support for the military from the politicians, it was much easier to extend the ten-years-of-peace assumption than to actually start devoting money to the Army, especially given the world economy, and a few other reasons, which are quite true.
    There are a couple of points, here.

    1) The subject has absolutely nothing to do with the US. Or "soldiering" in the traditional way of thinking.
    2) I told the instructors that the basis for their question was false. i.e., that they were wrong
    3) I was lauded for this.
    Witness: http://imgur.com/OF7h0LX

    The Irish thesis has plenty to do with soldiering. Especially when one considers that the purpose of CGSC is not to teach soldiers tactics, we're soon-to-be Lieutenant Colonels and colonels. At that level, you have to start thinking at higher level concepts than "Planning for a combined arms breach". My next submission, due next week, is an assessment of the operational design thinking for a large multi-national intervention in the Causcasus region as a staff member at the Theater (CLFCC) level. Questions about just how much risk a military should be taking, how to balance the threat to its forces against the ability to conduct the overall mission are absolutely the sorts of things which should be thought about at this level.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    There was a Swedish officer assigned to A Coy, the late Lt Lars Fromberg. His role was that of interpreter, mainly in French. There was an Irish civilian named Mike Nolan also attached to A Coy as an interpreter of local tribal languages. Nolan had been living in the region for some time previous to the UN deployment.

    With ref to 4ensic15's previous utterences, he is incorrect, a common feature with many of his postings alas! The pilot of of the downed helicopter was Lt Bjarne Hovden of Norway. His co-pilot was Warrant Officer Eric Thors from Sweden.

    Unfortunately Fromberg does not show in the movie, but then nor do a number of other key characters from the period. It is after all a film and a mix of fact and fiction to tell the essence of the story.

    Regarding some previous postings on this matter, I would draw the moderator's attention to a number of slurs being slung with abandon by 4ensic15 about two men in particular I know personally. Lt Col Gareth Prendergast is a very fine and competent officer. Those who have commanded him, served alongside and below him can attest to this fact.

    It is one thing to take issue with the findings of his Fort Leavenworth thesis, it is quite another to launch a personal polemic against the man. Regarding said polemic, as it has been sandwiched in between a rather ridiculous and inarticulate rant about the appropriate use of the term 'major' along with other daft claims of how this impinges on our national laws and mores etc, I suppose we should not be taking the ranter too seriously.

    However, I note the same ranter, 4ensic15, has gone off on a diatribe against the author of 'Siege at Jadotville', Declan Power, again, another gentleman my service brought me into close contact with. He served under my command at one point and proved to be diligent and effective, certainly not a man given to 'fabrication' as has been the accusation leveled against him.

    Incidentally, I am personally aware that his book had to be scrutinised before the then Minister of Defence, Willie O'Dea, would go on to give his unqualified support to the Jadotville veterans by awarding scrolls of honour and authorising a plaque to be erected to commemorate them in Custume Bks, Athlone.

    I would ask the moderators to rein in such unnecessary and insulting statments lest they be deemed slanderous by others. Having read this thread before I have seen needless recourse to personal insults by 4ensic15 to other members of the thread, particularly Jesus.

    Previously Jesus published a private message that led to an unwarranted torrent of abuse from 4ensic15 who questioned its authenticity. I wish to put on record that the PM was from me to Jesus when I had read the message traffic preceding it and had wanted to agree with the direction of some of his points.

    It would be nice if this thread could continue in an enlightened form with out the personal abuse...especially coming from one who I suspect is the least qualified militarily and far too personally involved to be able to deal with this discussion on a civilised and professional basis.

    Kudos to Manic Moran on establishing exactly what the role of the Leavenworth (CGSC) is and perhaps stopping us descending into the morass of when major can and can't be used!

    Now, here's a thought. How can the legacy of Jadotville be best harnessed for the benefit of our forces and society? Also, are we in danger of over playing the issue, such as continually harping on about medals etc and forgetting the high standard of company-in-defence tactics employed?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Jesus. Is that you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    Ah 4ensic15, don't dodge the issues. Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, you're probably not such a bad chap to have a pint with, once you can keep from getting your dander up and recognise the right of others to hold alternate opinions to your own.

    So what do you make of the recent film? As you are an ardent critic of matters to do with this era of Irish military history, I'm curious as to your view, does it do A Coy justice...is it good for the Defence Forces and the state that this will be seen internationally?


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    No 4ensic its not me. This is me!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    Nice piece in today's Irish Times (04/10/16) by Fintan O'Toole about his uncle, Willy Heffernan, who was at Jadotville. He concludes his article:

    It is not surprising that it has taken so long – too long, alas, for Willy – for the Siege of Jadotville to be acknowledged as a part of Irish history and for the men who withstood it to be recognised as patriots who risked their lives to give Ireland an independent place in the world. For Jadotville is the opposite of the great Irish nationalist myth of blood sacrifice.

    The problem with the Jadotville men is that they didn’t die – they were almost unbelievably successful at staying alive while high politics were setting them up to be massacred. They lived to tell the tale and yet, under a different kind of siege – the long siege of insinuations on their manhood and honour – they chose not to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Had a watch of the film tonight. Brilliant film and although I know some of it was "sexed up" for entertainment purposes it does show the lads who were there in a great light and they fully deserve to have their amazing story told.

    Also liked how it should Conor Cruise O'Brian for the selfish snake that he was.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Despite the movie and the newfound interest it would appear the Army is still somewhat embarrassed about Jadotville. Not a single mention of it in its Congo archive:

    http://www.military.ie/en/overseas/past-missions/africa/onuc/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The DF of today is a lot more open minded than it ever was, so I'd be inclined to believe that it is over any embarrassment about Jadotville. After all, the entire Lebanon mission and all the other UN missions and events at home and abroad concerning the DF have occurred since the Congo period and a lot of water has passed under the metaphorical bridge since 1961.


  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭happyfriday74


    Hi all.

    I saw the film and keen to learn more about this event.

    The bookshop has two books covering it.

    One by Declan Power andown another called Heroes of Jacoville.

    Has anyone read either if these and which would be the better read?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Hi all.

    I saw the film and keen to learn more about this event.

    The bookshop has two books covering it.

    One by Declan Power andown another called Heroes of Jacoville.

    Has anyone read either if these and which would be the better read?

    Heroes of jadotville is infinitely better.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    The DF of today is a lot more open minded than it ever was, so I'd be inclined to believe that it is over any embarrassment about Jadotville. After all, the entire Lebanon mission and all the other UN missions and events at home and abroad concerning the DF have occurred since the Congo period and a lot of water has passed under the metaphorical bridge since 1961.

    Can you explain the complete omission in the link I provided?
    Hi all. I saw the film and keen to learn more about this event. The bookshop has two books covering it. One by Declan Power andown another called Heroes of Jacoville. Has anyone read either if these and which would be the better read?
    Definitely go with Declan Power.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Read both books.

    The REMF deserve all the blame, and all the shame. Shame too on all the toadies who bought into the 'official' story.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Who/what brought Dag's plane down? Where?

    Not your ornery onager



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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,794 ✭✭✭Jesus.


    Esel wrote: »
    The REMF deserve all the blame..

    Who?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    Esel wrote: »
    Who/what brought Dag's plane down? Where?

    There have been a number of reports done into this, and there are slightly different results from all of them, but I don't think any are conclusive. There are also many "Alternative" Theories.

    Googling United Nations DC-6 crash will give you an interesting few hours reading


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Who?

    See the Variants entry on this page:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogue

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,002 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    There have been a number of reports done into this, and there are slightly different results from all of them, but I don't think any are conclusive. There are also many "Alternative" Theories.

    Googling United Nations DC-6 crash will give you an interesting few hours reading

    The Wikipedia page is 'interesting'...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1961_Ndola_United_Nations_DC-6_crash

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Heraldoffreeent


    Esel wrote: »

    So is this article:
    https://news.vice.com/article/what-does-the-uk-know-about-the-mysterious-plane-crash-that-killed-a-un-secretary-general

    I was surprised when I saw how it was depicted in the movie, but when I looked into it, there are reports from at least two sources who mentioned picking up chatter on a radio frequency being monitored from cyprus. The chatter mentioned Hammersjolds call sign as its target. Both sources are British Military, so you'd imagine their versions could be verifiable.

    The Mercs in Katanga had a pair of planes being flown by 2 Rhodesians operating close enough to the flight path and crash site, although they only had old US P6's, and the contemporary reports which mention Planes seem to hint at the aggressor aircraft being a Jet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    Hi all.

    I saw the film and keen to learn more about this event.

    The bookshop has two books covering it.

    One by Declan Power andown another called Heroes of Jacoville.

    Has anyone read either if these and which would be the better read?

    Power's is more accurate and less emotive in my opinion. It was the one adapted for film


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    Had a watch of the film tonight. Brilliant film and although I know some of it was "sexed up" for entertainment purposes it does show the lads who were there in a great light and they fully deserve to have their amazing story told.

    Also liked how it should Conor Cruise O'Brian for the selfish snake that he was.

    Good observation! But do remember a good chunk of CCOBs portrayal is fictionalised...he was never that close to the action


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    Heroes of jadotville is infinitely better.

    Really? I note you keep throwing this out there, why are you so adamant? Are you related to the author? You always seem very emotive and touchy about matters...where you there?

    I'll happily nail my colours to the mast here. Well the film has been adapted from Power's book. There have been four written to date and his was the first to be published which I was required to read for official reasons.

    In my opinion it's the most authoritative and accurate which is obviously why the film people adapted it. Curiously, I know the Quinlan family were consulted extensively on the making of the film, yet despite son Leo and his cousin Rose having written their own version, it was not adapted for use.

    Now, don't get me wrong, it's s good read, but focuses too much on the wrongs done to Quinlan and his men...too emotive. What I prefer about Power's...and too an extent Mick Whelan's fine work too, is that they are more detached and dispassionate and let the action do the talking. The reader can draw their own conclusions. Also both their timelines, dates, names, ranks plus weapons are more accurate.

    I think after the film, the issue of the surrender is one that people will be more curious about. It's a pity the whole issue of A Coy's captivity had to be rushed in the film.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 Cft


    Jesus. wrote: »
    Can you explain the complete omission in the link I provided?


    Definitely go with Declan Power.

    I can't explain the omission you have found Jesus, but I can tell you there is a much more enlightened perception of Jadotville at the general staff level nowadays. Previous attitudes were down to factions lining up behind either OC A Coy and the CO 35 Bn. The whole issue needed to have the light of day shone on it outside of army confines. So bravo to the likes of John Gorman and Liam Donnelly who helped do this. Also Willie o Dea was the first Irish politician to do anything substantive about it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness.


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