UK Votes to leave EU

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:11PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What happens if in return for concessions from the EU, London agrees to a hard border?
Would a united and planned reaction to that not be sensible?
London will have to make some difficult decisions and NI will be down the list, regardless of May's rethoric.

Why would the EU force a hard border in exchange for concessions?

But to answer your question that would be a matter for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon.

FA Hayek · 17-10-2016 11:13PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The fact they turned on the army after an initial welcoming should give you a clue how they acted. The army were brought in to defend Catholics from loyalists. They didn't. They colluded with paramilitary groups and murdered civilians ala Bloody Sunday. They also likely colluded in the bombing of Dublin. In other words they acted like a terrorist group. No higher ground in that war mate.

Oh, I somewhat agree. No one comes out of that smelling of roses. Its just resident Republicans will harp on about Bloody Sunday and the like, which of course was horrific and those responsible brought to account, Yet on the same breath you have them then defend putting bombs in Shopping Malls on a busy Saturday, which goes on to kill innocent children.

The myth is that Irish Republicans cared about innocent life when they killed far more civilians then the British Military, who of course are like the Waffen SS in their eyes. Its cognitive dissonance stepped from hatred of all things english rather then anything reasonable and logical.

You can't have it both ways. If you condemn the British army and its actions relating to innocent lives being lost, you cannot then shift the goal posts when people bring up bombings like Warrington, Omagh, Guildford etc.... because 'the cause' was worth it.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:17PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would the EU force a hard border in exchange for concessions?

But to answer your question that would be a matter for the Irish and UK governments to decode upon.

And everyone on the island saying the same thing (we all agree it would be a disaster) in a unified voice would be a bad thing I suppose?

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 11:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would the EU force a hard border in exchange for concessions?

But to answer your question that would be a matter for the Irish and UK governments to decode upon.

You seem to think that the UK can make individual deals with the Irish Government.
It cannot.
Ireland, as a member of the EU, is precluded by treaty from making bilateral deals.
In much the same way as NI cannot do it's own bilateral deals, only the UK has that authority.
Any deal will be between the EU and the UK.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 11:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would the EU force a hard border in exchange for concessions?

But to answer your question that would be a matter for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon.

You seem to lack clue one about how the UK, as a union, works.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:21PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

You seem to think that the UK can make individual deals with the Irish Government.
It cannot.
Ireland, as a member of the EU, is precluded by treaty from making bilateral deals.
In much the same way as NI cannot do it's own bilateral deals, only the UK has that authority.
Any deal will be between the EU and the UK.

You seem to be perceiving wrong. I'm well aware that the border between Ireland and the EU will be subject to EU decision. However any issues arising from said decision will be an issue for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon. Meetings between the Irish government and individual regions of the UK add nothing to the conversation.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:22PM

maryishere wrote: »

Naw, not just at Irelands door, the whole EU / EEC has its flaws. We done well out of it though, like our then Taoiseach returning from Edinburgh in 1992 with 8,000,000,000.00 in his pocket.
No wonder our country went mad in the noughties and has not recovered since.

How much do you think already wealthy British farmers have extracted from the single farm payment, yet you never mention that when speaking of 'waste' nor the British MEPs who successfully bloicked reforms of it. The same British who are 'fed up with waste'

Hypocrisy is high on this one or maybe you are talking from a totally uninformed position again.
I'll let the forum readers decide on that.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:23PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And everyone on the island saying the same thing (we all agree it would be a disaster) in a unified voice would be a bad thing I suppose?

They can say the same thing to the British government of course. But there's no need to have an all Ireland congress.

maryishere · 17-10-2016 11:27PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How much do you think already wealthy British farmers have extracted from the single farm payment, yet you never mention that when speaking of 'waste' nor the British MEPs who successfully bloicked reforms of it. The same British who are 'fed up with waste'
.

The British have been net contributors to the EEC / EC / EU over the decades. There has been waste in every country in the EU. However per head of population, even you would have to admit we done very well out of all the various handouts from Europe, the structural funds, SFA, education, motorways, roads , farm subsidies etc.

;););););););)

Junkyard Tom · 17-10-2016 11:28PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Oh, I somewhat agree. No one comes out of that smelling of roses. Its just resident Republicans will harp on about Bloody Sunday and the like, which of course was horrific and those responsible brought to account

Not one Soldier who did the murdering served a day in jail. They didn't even get thrown out of the army. That's not being 'brought to account'.

Yet on the same breath you have them then defend putting bombs in Shopping Malls on a busy Saturday, which goes on to kill innocent children.

I don't think I've ever read someone defend such acts on boards. You've a very poor understanding of the people you're talking about.

The myth is that Irish Republicans cared about innocent life when they killed far more civilians then the British Military

It's not that simple. The UDR was a regiment of the British Army and it supplied weapons, provided training, and killers, to Protestant murder gangs. There was deep endemic collusion with British security forces that helped Protestant murder gangs kill many hundreds of innocent Catholics.

who of course are like the Waffen SS in their eyes.

Strawman.

hatred of all things english

Strawman.

All you have is one big simplistic caricature of a Nationalist or Republican to argue against.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:28PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They can say the same thing to the British government of course. But there's no need to have an all Ireland congress.

We host an all island meeting to discuss the implications and invite the UK to send relevant informed members.
They are going to send people in the UK government with the expertise. The relevant NI ministers with the relevant portfolios.

Its not rocket science. But Arlene wants to paddle her now holed below the waterline canoe.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 11:30PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They can say the same thing to the British government of course. But there's no need to have an all Ireland congress.

Arlene Foster: "Theresa we're worried about the impact of Brexit on our exports"

May: The Irish government are suggesting a forum discussing the impact of Brexit on the island of Ireland. The republic of Ireland accounts for 40% of your exports so it would be a good idea to attend.

Arelene: that doesn't make economic sense because I don't like the republic and can't see what they'd have to offer on an all Ireland discussion.

You see IWF, May's not as thick as you make out. This is exactly how tribal politics in the north will die out. How does Arelene's reaction look to business leaders?

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:30PM

maryishere wrote: »

The British have been net contributors to the EEC / EC / EU over the decades. There has been waste in every country in the EU. However per head of population, even you would have to admit we done very well out of all the various handouts from Europe, the structural funds, SFA, education, motorways, roads , farm subsidies etc. ;););););););)

Mary, you got caught, hypocritically demeaning the country you say you come from. Stop digging.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 11:32PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You seem to be perceiving wrong. I'm well aware that the border between Ireland and the EU will be subject to EU decision. However any issues arising from said decision will be an issue for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon. Meetings between the Irish government and individual regions of the UK add nothing to the conversation.

"However any issues arising from said decision will be an issue for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon."

Don't really know what you are on about here. But if you are on about customs and passports, the EU regulations will pertain in Ireland. It will not be a matter of discussion.

"Meetings between the Irish government and individual regions of the UK add nothing to the conversation."
They may add nothing for you. They may be quite helpful for both the Republic and NI in protecting themselves from collateral damage in the row between the big boys.

kingchess · 17-10-2016 11:32PM

The USA trade rep has said that America will not start bilateral trade negotiations with the UK until the UK sorts out it relationship with the EU ",is it part of the customs union or not,is it part of the single market or not,does it have control over tariffs?,over regulations or not?". I was under the impression from pro brexit people I know that America would be bending over backwards to help out an old pal like the Uk but it seems not.it seems it will take years to hammer out a deal

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:35PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We host an all island meeting to discuss the implications and invite the UK to send relevant informed members.
They are going to send people in the UK government with the expertise. The relevant NI ministers with the relevant portfolios.

Its not rocket science. But Arlene wants to paddle her now holed below the waterline canoe.

Both the government of Ireland and Northern Ireland are more than capable of independently discussing these issues with the UK government.

There's no need for an "all Ireland" congress.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:36PM

kingchess wrote: »

The USA trade rep has said that America will not start bilateral trade negotiations with the UK until the UK sorts out it relationship with the EU ",is it part of the customs union or not,is it part of the single market or not,does it have control over tariffs?,over regulations or not?". I was under the impression from pro brexit people I know that America would be bending over backwards to help out an old pal like the Uk but it seems not.it seems it will take years to hammer out a deal

The reason Macmillan wanted into the EEC in the first place, to be the US favored child in Europe.
The world could be a very cold place if this goes tits up on May.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:36PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

"However any issues arising from said decision will be an issue for the Irish and UK governments to decide upon."

Don't really know what you are on about here. But if you are on about customs and passports, the EU regulations will pertain in Ireland. It will not be a matter of discussion.

"Meetings between the Irish government and individual regions of the UK add nothing to the conversation."
They may add nothing for you. They may be quite helpful for both the Republic and NI in protecting themselves from collateral damage in the row between the big boys.

I'm talking about issues relating to the decisions that are made.

As I've said to Francie. The NI and Irish governments are morebthan capable of independently raising these issues with the UK government.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:37PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Both the government of Ireland and Northern Ireland are more than capable of independently discussing these issues with the UK government.

There's no need for an "all Ireland" congress.

Those attending the discussions don't agree with you. Only the DUP agrees with you, funnily enough.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:39PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Those attending the discussions don't agree with you. Only the DUP agrees with you, funnily enough.

They are welcome to do as they wish.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:41PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They are welcome to do as they wish.

Won't be the first time the world moves on without the DUP. The did the same with the GFA until the comfy seats were up for grabs.

P.s. and haven't we come a long way from them having 'bounds' precluding them from discussing it.

Junkyard Tom · 17-10-2016 11:53PM

The DUP and Unionist politicians are desperately trying to chain their failed statelet to Britain while ignoring the all-Ireland nature of this Island, economy, and people.

They will fail.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 11:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Won't be the first time the world moves on without the DUP. The did the same with the GFA until the comfy seats were up for grabs.

P.s. and haven't we come a long way from them having 'bounds' precluding them from discussing it.

You really really don't understand the nature of regional government.

We've come even further away from NI turning down a special status in Brexit talks. Remind me how that vote went again.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:59PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The DUP and Unionist politicians are desperately trying to chain their failed statelet to Britain while ignoring the all-Ireland nature of this Island, economy, and people.

They will fail.

IMO nothing will show the sanity of a unified island than what is about to come down the tracks.

I still wouldn't have voted for Brexit though, I think the pain and set back is too high a price for something that will inevitably happen anyway.

Iwasfrozen · 18-10-2016 12:03AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

IMO nothing will show the sanity of a unified island than what is about to come down the tracks.

I still wouldn't have voted for Brexit though, I think the pain and set back is too high a price for something that will inevitably happen anyway.

The effects of Brexit are being over blown. Gleefully in some quarters, I might add.

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2016 12:03AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You really really don't understand the nature of regional government.

We've come even further away from NI turning down a special status in Brexit talks. Remind me how that vote went again.

I understand the nature of the DUP. If it wasn't so serious, the laughing at Arlene's antics would have been heard by those Devon plumbers I mentioned earlier. A dangerous political lightweight!

FrancieBrady · 18-10-2016 12:05AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The effects of Brexit are being over blown. Gleefully in some quarters, I might add.

Brexit hasn't happened yet. And I for one am not gleeful, angry yes.

1st dalkey dalkey · 18-10-2016 12:05AM

What are the possible outcomes.
1) Best case (for us in Ireland). May decides it is all too dangerous, puts the matter to parliament and it is voted down. Brexit cancelled, huge sigh of relief all round. Pound recovers and stalled investment re-started, but uproar in the conservative party.
2) Middle ground. The City (bankers) and the German car industry flex a little muscle and a compromise is arrived at. A 'soft' brexit similar to the Norway deal. Pound recovers, stalled investment re-started, but uproar in the Conservative party.
3) Worst case. May sticks to her guns and insists on no free movement of people. That will lead to a hard brexit, loss of banking passport rights, WTO trading rules, pound tanks, a hard border in Ireland, tariffs, likely recession in both the UK and EU and the possibility of a trade war. But the conservative party will be happy for a while.
In each case both the EU and the UK will learn to live with the new environment and eventually recover from the shock. Quickly in scenario 1, very slowly in scenario 3.

Iwasfrozen · 18-10-2016 12:11AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit hasn't happened yet. And I for one am not gleeful, angry yes.

Why are you angry?

Zubeneschamali · 18-10-2016 12:13AM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

In each case both the EU and the UK will learn to live with the new environment and eventually recover from the shock. Quickly in scenario 1, very slowly in scenario 3.

In case 1, Brexit doesn't actually happen, so things return to normal. In case 2, Brexit happens on paper, but the UK keeps all the regulations and pays the associated fees, so only the Brits know or care..

But far more likely now is case 3, where Brexit means Brexit and actually happens. The EU and UK will learn to live with the result, but both will be poorer than if no idiot suggested Brexit, and the UK will suffer most.

But hey, miniature Union Jacks!

UK Votes to leave EU

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