UK Votes to leave EU

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 09:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say that?

If the rest of the UK are interested in the affect of their decision on this island they are welcome.

The DUP are the ones who are refusing an all island discussion.

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 09:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But why should they? Brexit is a UK issue. Why would NI hold meetings with a foreign country without the rest of the UK?

IWF tell me you see no economic or social reason for Northern Ireland to talk to the Rep. You said before you study maths. Please give me some reason to believe that.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 09:52PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

We are having discussions with the UK government and there is need to discuss and pinpoint problems at a local level.
The request was a sensible and important one. And Arlene played to the bigots. Typical behaviour from the DUP .

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 09:55PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are having discussions with the UK government and there is need to discuss and pinpoint problems at a local level.
The request was a sensible and important one. And Arlene played to the bigots. Typical behaviour from the DUP .

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 09:56PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The discussions of any affect Brexit may have on Ireland or NI can be held with the government if the UK. There is no need for the DUP to get directly involved.

Why would you want to deny the DUP an input?

From the GFA;

""... the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities".

First Up · 17-10-2016 09:59PM

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

Which bit of the UK government do you suggest?

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:00PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

Of course you can't.
A few minutes ago The DUP were 'bound' by some unknown force from discussing a area of huge implications for everyone on this island. Now its a forlorn, 'I just can't what it could achieve'.

At least you didn't make a fool of yourself and insist there were mysterious 'bounds'.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:02PM

First Up wrote: »

Which bit of the UK government do you suggest?

Exactly. On foot of an invitation who would they send...some Devon plumbers

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 10:03PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Any local issues arising from Brexit such as the border can be held with the UK givernment. I don't see what an all Ireland congress could achieve that discussions with the UK government can't.

The discussions would be informal and exploratory. They would not, and could not due to their informal nature, decide anything.
Just as unofficial discussions between Ireland and the UK would be informal and incapable of making any decisions.
You seem to have an inordinate need to centralise control of discussion in Westminster.

FA Hayek · 17-10-2016 10:05PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Bless your cotton socks. Educate yourself a little and read up on the 'Battle at Springmartin' here. One thing stopped ethnic cleansing akin to what happened in Bombay Street.

Guns. Guns in the hands of Republicans.

Again, Republican revisionism. Why did the Provos go on to bomb urban centres so in the North and Britain? Why did this defensive war descend into this bombing busy shopping malls killing innocent children?

My claim is actually true.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/troops/chap4.htm

A broad swathe of Catholic opinion, from the Catholic church and the Nationalist party through to the Independent Organisation accepted the presence of the army. They saw it as necessary, as much for the restoration of law and order and some form of 'policing', as for the 'defence' of Catholic areas in Derry. Initially there was a great deal of goodwill towards the army and there was what one Republican later described as a ‘pathetic love relationship’ between the army and people in the Bogside.[3] Apprehension in the Catholic community was centred, not around how the army's role would develop but on ‘what will happen when they are withdrawn’.[4] Even a Labour radical such as Eamonn McCann could argue at one point, that the Free Derry barricades should remain because otherwise the troops might leave and they would be left again at the mercy of Stormont.[5]

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:09PM

:rolleyes:

FA Hayek wrote: »

Again, Republican revisionism. Why did the Provos go on to bomb urban centres so in the North and Britain? Why did this defensive war descend into this bombing busy shopping malls killing innocent children?

My claim is actually true.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/troops/chap4.htm

Do a bit more research and figure out why they turned on the army.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 10:13PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

Again, Republican revisionism. Why did the Provos go on to bomb urban centres so in the North and Britain? Why did this defensive war descend into this bombing busy shopping malls killing innocent children?

My claim is actually true.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/troops/chap4.htm

The fact they turned on the army after an initial welcoming should give you a clue how they acted. The army were brought in to defend Catholics from loyalists. They didn't. They colluded with paramilitary groups and murdered civilians ala Bloody Sunday. They also likely colluded in the bombing of Dublin. In other words they acted like a terrorist group. No higher ground in that war mate.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 10:16PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

Why would you want to deny the DUP an input?

From the GFA;

""... the power of the sovereign government with jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, economic, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos and aspirations of both communities".

And can you show me where that means the DUP have to involve them selves in negotiations with the Irish government.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 10:19PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

The discussions would be informal and exploratory. They would not, and could not due to their informal nature, decide anything.
Just as unofficial discussions between Ireland and the UK would be informal and incapable of making any decisions.
You seem to have an inordinate need to centralise control of discussion in Westminster.

There's no need for exclusive informal discussions between the Irish government and the NI assembly. Anything worth discussing can be discussed through the UK government. It's that simple

17-10-2016 10:21PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The fact they turned on the army after an initial welcoming should give you a clue how they acted. The army were brought in to defend Catholics from loyalists. They didn't. They colluded with paramilitary groups and murdered civilians ala Bloody Sunday. They also likely colluded in the bombing of Dublin. In other words they acted like a terrorist group. No higher ground in that war mate.

You've skipped a few steps....
but WTF has this got to do with Brexit!
Brexit is the short term future, the troubles belong to the history forum!

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:22PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And can you show me where that means the DUP have to involve them selves in negotiations with the Irish government.

Nobody said they 'have' to do anything. The provision is the in the GFA to discuss areas of mutual concern.
There was also nobody mentioning negotiations.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:28PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's no need for exclusive informal discussions between the Irish government and the NI assembly. Anything worth discussing can be discussed through the UK government. It's that simple

Arlene only seen some of the problems Brexit would pose AFTER the ref, when she started panicking and looking for special treatment.

A good discussion among all affected parties would educate her in the event of another vote.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 10:28PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And can you show me where that means the DUP have to involve them selves in negotiations with the Irish government.

They don't have to.
Anymore then the Irish government has to talk to the UK government.
The suggestion was that an informal discussion might be helpful in assessing our positions prior to Brexit negotiations.
But since you seem intent on centralising control of all discussion in Westminster, it might be best to just drop the issue and let you deal directly with the EU.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 10:35PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nobody said they 'have' to do anything. The provision is the in the GFA to discuss areas of mutual concern.
There was also nobody mentioning negotiations.

Right so if nobody said they have to do anything then no body can complain when they don't.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 10:35PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's no need for exclusive informal discussions between the Irish government and the NI assembly. Anything worth discussing can be discussed through the UK government. It's that simple

It's that stupid would be more accurate. I know you never lived in any part of the UK but it doesn't work like that. Nearly 50% of NI's exports are with the republic. They share a border. That part of the UK has an interest in coordinating with the rest of the island.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 10:38PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

They don't have to.
Anymore then the Irish government has to talk to the UK government.
The suggestion was that an informal discussion might be helpful in assessing our positions prior to Brexit negotiations.
But since you seem intent on centralising control of all discussion in Westminster, it might be best to just drop the issue and let you deal directly with the EU.

The Irish government will have to deal with the UK. They're a small country with too much riding on Brexit to ignore talks.

Northern Ireland on the other hand is a constitute part of the UK. The UK government is more than capable of discussing any issues relating to Ireland resulting from Btexit.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:43PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's that stupid would be more accurate. I know you never lived in any part of the UK but it doesn't work like that. Nearly 50% of NI's exports are with the republic. They share a border. That part of the UK has an interest in coordinating with the rest of the island.

NI losing out doesn't bother our Arlene, the spirit of 1690 is more important.
She proposes taking NI out of the EU, then realising she made an awful mistake and was on the winning side, started looking for special treatment, but then when a hand was offered to try and mitigate the damage, she plays to the rabble and repudiates it.
A short political career methinks.
There are many unionist farmers whose single farm payment might suddenly come before the memory of Billy.

indioblack · 17-10-2016 10:47PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A nine member EEC was an entirely different entity to the 28 member EU it is today. It never full bought into any of the evolutions, and probably always hankered after EEC Lite. As integration developed it lost more and more control. No Britain has decided enough is enough, and that it is time to take back control. Exiting is not a risk - it is a clear choice determining your future, and considering aspects of nationhood, culture, society, and democracy, beyond simple economics and pounds in the wallet.

EEC Lite is a good way of putting it.
It was always the Common Market then.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:47PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Irish government will have to deal with the UK. They're a small country with too much riding on Brexit to ignore talks.

Northern Ireland on the other hand is a constitute part of the UK. The UK government is more than capable of discussing any issues relating to Ireland resulting from Btexit.

What happens if in return for concessions from the EU, London agrees to a hard border?
Would a united and planned reaction to that not be sensible?
London will have to make some difficult decisions and NI will be down the list, regardless of May's rethoric.

steddyeddy · 17-10-2016 10:51PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

NI losing out doesn't bother our Arlene, the spirit of 1690 is more important.
She proposes taking NI out of the EU, then realising she made an awful mistake and was on the winning side, started looking for special treatment, but then when a hand was offered to try and mitigate the damage, she plays to the rabble and repudiates it.
A short political career methinks.
There are many unionist farmers whose single farm payment might suddenly come before the memory of Billy.

I hope this tribal politics in NI gets wiped out with some good old fashioned economic reality.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 10:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Irish government will have to deal with the UK. They're a small country with too much riding on Brexit to ignore talks.

Northern Ireland on the other hand is a constitute part of the UK. The UK government is more than capable of discussing any issues relating to Ireland resulting from Btexit.

The Irish Government cannot deal with the UK Government. It may have informal discussion, but can make no decisions without the agreement of the EU. Any dealing will be between the EU and the UK. NI is in the same position re us.
We fully understand that we will be used as a bargaining chip by the UK in it's fight with the EU. But there is nothing we can do about that.
In many ways we are in the same position viz a vi the EU as NI is re the UK. Too small to matter to the big boys and likely to be sold down the river by both for some bigger issue.
All the more reason why we should have our own discussions.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 10:54PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I hope this tribal politics in NI gets wiped out with some good old fashioned economic reality.

Not as long as you have a rabble to play to and people making excuses for that kind of behaviour. 'Bounds' me granny

catbear · 17-10-2016 10:54PM

Being on this thread is what it must feel like to be a WWF wrestler. Someone has turn up with the trash talk and then get constantly smacked down but they kept doing the same show day in day out.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 11:02PM

catbear wrote: »

Being on this thread is what it must feel like to be a WWF wrestler. Someone has turn up with the trash talk and then get constantly smacked down but they kept doing the same show day in day out.

true.
We had Mary on earlier doing her best to lay the blame for EU waste only at Ireland's door, completely unaware that British ministers successfully vetoed reforms of the single farm payment. SFP's that pay by the hectare, so the more land you own the more you get. Mrs Windsor gets half a million from it ffs.

maryishere · 17-10-2016 11:09PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

true.
We had Mary on earlier doing her best to lay the blame for EU waste only at Ireland's door,

Naw, not just at Irelands door, the whole EU / EEC has its flaws. We done well out of it though, like our then Taoiseach returning from Edinburgh in 1992 with 8,000,000,000.00 in his pocket.
No wonder our country went mad in the noughties and has not recovered since.

UK Votes to leave EU

Comments