UK Votes to leave EU

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 07:41PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually that's not quiet correct. The EU cannot hold official talks with the UK until article 50 is activated.

The EU could hold unofficial talks with the UK right now but choose not to.

There is nothing stopping Ireland holding unofficial talks with the UK whenever they want on any subject they want.

Where is this law/statute that you are hiding behind.
There is ample provision in the GFA for an all island discussion/plan to meet the coming change of circumstances.
Stop with the hidebound nonsense please.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 07:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is this law/statute that you are hiding behind.
There is ample provision in the GFA for an all island discussion/plan to meet the coming change of circumstances.
Stop with the hidebound nonsense please.

I don't believe I've ever made reference to any law.

What provision in the GFA?

First Up · 17-10-2016 07:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote:

There is nothing stopping Ireland holding unofficial talks with the UK whenever they want on any subject they want.

And you can be quite sure we are. But the final arrangements will be within the terms agreed between the UK and EU.

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 07:43PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

A nine member EEC was an entirely different entity to the 28 member EU it is today. It never full bought into any of the evolutions, and probably always hankered after EEC Lite. As integration developed it lost more and more control. No Britain has decided enough is enough, and that it is time to take back control. Exiting is not a risk - it is a clear choice determining your future, and considering aspects of nationhood, culture, society, and democracy, beyond simple economics and pounds in the wallet.

It is certainly true that the current EU is a different beast to the one which the UK joined.
But it is also true that the UK was a part of all the changes that happened in the interim. Different governments over the years were more or less inclined toward Europe, but they were UK governments were part of the changes. Thus, what the EU has become is partly the responsibility of the UK.
One of the changes made was to enact a method of leaving the Union. The UK has now chosen that course.
I say good luck to you.
But I do object to the accusation that we in the EU are somehow 'punishing' you on trade when you leave. The trade benefits accrue to members. If you choose not to be a member, you choose to loose the benefits of membership. You control this choice, thus there is no punishment from the EU.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 07:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't believe I've ever made reference to any law.

What provision in the GFA?

The sections that deal with Cross border cooperation and a shared future, ever hear it mentioned?

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 07:50PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

It is certainly true that the current EU is a different beast to the one which the UK joined.
But it is also true that the UK was a part of all the changes that happened in the interim. Different governments over the years were more or less inclined toward Europe, but they were UK governments were part of the changes. Thus, what the EU has become is partly the responsibility of the UK.
One of the changes made was to enact a method of leaving the Union. The UK has now chosen that course.
I say good luck to you.
But I do object to the accusation that we in the EU are somehow 'punishing' you on trade when you leave. The trade benefits accrue to members. If you choose not to be a member, you choose to loose the benefits of membership. You control this choice, thus there is no punishment from the EU.

Plus the fact that there hasn't been a British government since they joined that wanted to leave.
The current government didn't want to leave, nor did it's opposition.

Junkyard Tom · 17-10-2016 07:51PM

Businesses in the northeast are already eyeing a move south to secure access to the EU labour force. It doesn't look good for the north at the moment.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 07:54PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The sections that deal with Cross border cooperation and a shared future, ever hear it mentioned?

Imma need a direct quote if you're going to start using legislation.

Besides unless the GFA mandates cross party discussion on the terms of a Brexit then it hardly invalidates my earlier sentiment does it?

To reiterate, if the Irish government wants to discussion the implications of Brexit the UK government is certainly up for the task.

The Rape of Lucretia · 17-10-2016 07:57PM

1st dalkey dalkey wrote: »

But it is also true that the UK was a part of all the changes that happened in the interim. Different governments over the years were more or less inclined toward Europe, but they were UK governments were part of the changes. Thus, what the EU has become is partly the responsibility of the UK.

But I do object to the accusation that we in the EU are somehow 'punishing' you on trade when you leave. The trade benefits accrue to members. If you choose not to be a member, you choose to loose the benefits of membership. You control this choice, thus there is no punishment from the EU.

The UK was a reluctant and even resisting party to the changes over the years - it was far from leading the evolution in the direction is has taken.

I dont think anyone is talking about 'punishment'. The UK accepts there will be a price to pay. That you do not get the benefits of a club without being a member. Or that the EU will look after its members interests at the expense of the UK's in any negotiation of future relationships. Britain will pay an economic price - it is under no illusion on that point. And will do its best to get the best deal to minimise that cost. And pursue alternative avenues with other world economies to mitigate that cost. But even accepting the likelyhood that it will not restore the full benefit of membership of the EU, it considers this route worthwhile - for far more reasons, fundamental to its self respect, self determination, freedom, and control of that which is truly Britain, than can be measured in simply the grubby balance of net inflows and outflows of euros.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 07:59PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Imma need a direct quote if you're going to start using legislation.

Besides unless the GFA mandates cross party discussion on the terms of a Brexit then it hardly invalidates my earlier sentiment does it?

To reiterate, if the Irish government wants to discussion the implications of Brexit the UK government is certainly up for the task.

You were the one laying down a law to support Arlene's fabulous cock up.

Read the GFA, its all in there.
Like most DUP reactions you don't have scratch too hard to find a hidebound bigoted, selfish lunacy.

As usual they will leave it to others to clean up their mess

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 08:04PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Plus the fact that there hasn't been a British government since they joined that wanted to leave.
The current government didn't want to leave, nor did it's opposition.

Indeed. So much for parliamentary primacy.
That, however, is a matter for the UK to hammer out through it's courts and politics.
The facility to leave is there in the EU legislation. They are fully entitled to use it. But there are clear consequences to doing so i.e. the loss of membership privileges. They must be factored in when making the decision.
The decision is theirs alone. And the consequences of the decision are theirs alone also.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:09PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The UK was a reluctant and even resisting party to the changes over the years - it was far from leading the evolution in the direction is has taken.

I dont think anyone is talking about 'punishment'. The UK accepts there will be a price to pay. That you do not get the benefits of a club without being a member. Or that the EU will look after its members interests at the expense of the UK's in any negotiation of future relationships. Britain will pay an economic price - it is under no illusion on that point. And will do its best to get the best deal to minimise that cost. And pursue alternative avenues with other world economies to mitigate that cost. But even accepting the likelyhood that it will not restore the full benefit of membership of the EU, it considers this route worthwhile - for far more reasons, fundamental to its self respect, self determination, freedom, and control of that which is truly Britain, than can be measured in simply the grubby balance of net inflows and outflows of euros.

Utter nonsense.
The British government has been forced to do something it didn't want to do(for x amount of reasons) by a majority of little englander xenophobes deluded by decades of tosh about a go it alone Britain that never actually existed. Any wealth it had was built by the sweat of those they trampled on.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 08:12PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You were the one laying down a law to support Arlene's fabulous cock up.

Read the GFA, its all in there.
Like most DUP reactions you don't have scratch too hard to find a hidebound bigoted, selfish lunacy.

As usual they will leave it to others to clean up their mess

I did no such thing, don't lie.

If youre gonna try to use the GFA in this I'm going need a direct quote or I'm going to assume you're talking out of your hoop.

You're quiet bitter that NI wont be seeking special status but honestly what did you expect? NI is part of the UK and the UK voted out.

Fratton Fred · 17-10-2016 08:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Utter nonsense.
The British government has been forced to do something it didn't want to do(for x amount of reasons) by a majority of little englander xenophobes deluded by decades of tosh about a go it alone Britain that never actually existed. Any wealth it had was built by the sweat of those they trampled on.

Xenophobic Little Englander

maryishere · 17-10-2016 08:16PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Businesses in the northeast are ...

Hotels, shops etc in N. Ireland are doing very well since the Brexit referendum as shoppers and tourists etc find it better value for their money in the stg area.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any wealth it had was built by the sweat of those they trampled on.

lol. You really do not like the UK, do you?

1st dalkey dalkey · 17-10-2016 08:20PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The UK was a reluctant and even resisting party to the changes over the years - it was far from leading the evolution in the direction is has taken.

I dont think anyone is talking about 'punishment'. The UK accepts there will be a price to pay. That you do not get the benefits of a club without being a member. Or that the EU will look after its members interests at the expense of the UK's in any negotiation of future relationships. Britain will pay an economic price - it is under no illusion on that point. And will do its best to get the best deal to minimise that cost. And pursue alternative avenues with other world economies to mitigate that cost. But even accepting the likelyhood that it will not restore the full benefit of membership of the EU, it considers this route worthwhile - for far more reasons, fundamental to its self respect, self determination, freedom, and control of that which is truly Britain, than can be measured in simply the grubby balance of net inflows and outflows of euros.

I think that many were indeed using words like 'punishment' and 'vengeful' in respect of the EU.
However, I think that this is an honest response. I just wish it was a view more commonly held.
The UK can, indeed, survive outside the EU. It can even prosper. But it will require good leadership and there will be several years of difficult transition. As I said above, I wish you well and hope we can continue to be good neighbours.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I did no such thing, don't lie.

If youre gonna try to use the GFA in this I'm going need a direct quote or I'm going to assume.you're talking outnof your hoop.

There is nothing anywhere precluding the DUP from joining an all island forum only their inherent bigotry

The GFA has within it the mechanism for both jurisdictions to work together, the entire agreement enshrines an ethos of a shared future.

Nobody was asking Arlene to sell her soul or do anything her masters might frown on, and the Irish gov had and is having discussions already anyway with London.

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:24PM

maryishere wrote: »

Hotels, shops etc in N. Ireland are doing very well since the Brexit referendum as shoppers and tourists etc find it better value for their money in the stg area.

Could you link to a hotelier or even a store owner who has said Brexit is the wonderful thing you claim it to be?

tomwaterford · 17-10-2016 08:25PM

Is the big question here....if citizens of the north are irish as they are entitled to be.....ergo there citizens of Europe aswell??

maryishere · 17-10-2016 08:30PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Could you link to a hotelier or even a store owner who has said Brexit is the wonderful thing you claim it to be?

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 08:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is nothing anywhere precluding the DUP from joining an all island forum only their inherent bigotry

Why would they? That would be subverting the rightful role of the UK government to handle foreign relations. You're the only.one who mentioned legislation.

The GFA has within it the mechanism for both jurisdictions to work together, the entire agreement enshrines an ethos of a shared future.

Nobody was asking Arlene to sell her soul or do anything her masters might frown on, and the Irish gov had and is having discussions already anyway with London.

Direct quotes please. Don't tell me what the GFA has, show me.

Good then let them continue, they don't need Northern Ireland stepping outside its bounds to conduct foreign relations with the Irish government.

Iwasfrozen · 17-10-2016 08:33PM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Is the big question here....if citizens of the north are irish as they are entitled to be.....ergo there citizens of Europe aswell??

If they hold Irish citizenship they are citizens of theneu by virtue of that post Brexit yes.

tomwaterford · 17-10-2016 08:34PM

maryishere wrote: »

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

Yes....but the money there taking in is worth a lot less

All of which is irrelevant without actually figures....due out the the first week of november and then the end of year to account for the busy Xmas period iirc

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:34PM

maryishere wrote: »

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

Do you have a quote or link to this or has your friend told you.
Sterling fluctuations have been a feature for decades.
Has a hotelier or store owner saidBrexit is a good thing?

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would they? That would be subverting the rightful role of the UK government to handle foreign relations. You're the only.one who mentioned legislation.

Direct quotes please. Don't tell me what the GFA has, show me.

Good then let them continue, they don't need Northern Ireland stepping outside its bounds to conduct foreign relations with the Irish government.

If NI is stepping out of its 'bounds' those 'bounds' will be defined. Where?

I can't quote the GFA because I'm on a tablet. But if it doesnt espouse both jurisdictions working together on a shared whole island future. Please say it here in black and white and I will take great pleasure tomorrow pointing the clauses out to you.

tomwaterford · 17-10-2016 08:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If they hold Irish citizenship they are citizens of theneu by virtue of that post Brexit yes.

Of which all citizens of the north are entitled to

The Irish government and the eu is somewhat prudently looking after the rights of a million plus potentialy of its citizens

I do believe history had taught of the south badly for abdaning nationlists in the north from the 1920s on and no way should the state make the same mistake again

Neither should the eu abandon it's million plus potential citizens either....to a region which is very strong at the minute on anti-immigration sentiment

First Up · 17-10-2016 08:45PM

maryishere wrote:

They are too busy raking in the money due to their increased business since the referendum. It is noticeable now how many adds there are in our papers in the Republic from northern hotels selling their packages down here. The supermarket car parks in Newry and Enniskillen and Derry have a good proportion of southern cars again - far more than this time last year.

And the economic benefits are what exactly - a few more early school leavers getting jobs as shop assistants?

Meanwhile the price of the UK's imports goes up and up. And in case you didn't know, the UK imports more than it exports.

Of course the UK does well selling financial services but I notice that you have been silent about todays piece in the Financial Times that the UK will continue to contribute billions to the EU, so they are allowed continued access. How much cheap lager will they need to sell around Newry to compensate for that?

maryishere · 17-10-2016 08:47PM

Talking to some English people about the EC / EU, it was not difficult to get the feeling they often were very sceptical of the value they perceived they were getting from their financial contribution to Europe over the decades. We done well in this country. I remember some Englash visitor continually questioning the large handouts we got from Europe ( Germany and the UK being its 2 biggest net contributers). For example, the 8 billion Albert Reynolds brought home from the meeting in Edinburgh.
" A deal he pulled off at an EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 won €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland "
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/what-s-in-a-billion-1.167873
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/albert-reynolds-s-towering-achievement-was-the-peace-process-1.1904120

I remember some English tourists coming to Ireland in our Celtic tiger years, and being utterly amazed that the landlady of the "mansion" of their B+B said that Europe / EC / EU paid for half of her quite new B+B. They were amazed at the size of the houses and all the building in Ireland. And we were getting billions in other European money per year, when the countries labourers were going to New York on shopping weekends. A few years later the English tourists said they came back to stay at the b+b, knocked on the door, but the landlady said she stopped doing b+b, it was her private house now.

tomwaterford · 17-10-2016 08:49PM

Are we correct in saying Mary thinks the eu was conspiring to take money off the English to build b and bs in ireland :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac: :pac:

FrancieBrady · 17-10-2016 08:50PM

maryishere wrote: »

Talking to some English people about the EC / EU, it was not difficult to get the feeling they often were very sceptical of the value they perceived they were getting from their financial contribution to Europe over the decades. We done well in this country. I remember some Englash visitor continually questioning the large handouts we got from Europe ( Germany and the UK being its 2 biggest net contributers). For example, the 8 billion Albert Reynolds brought home from the meeting in Edinburgh.
" A deal he pulled off at an EU summit in Edinburgh in December 1992 won €8 billion in structural and cohesion funds for Ireland "
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/what-s-in-a-billion-1.167873
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/albert-reynolds-s-towering-achievement-was-the-peace-process-1.1904120

I remember some English tourists coming to Ireland in our Celtic tiger years, and being utterly amazed that the landlady of the "mansion" of their B+B said that Europe / EC / EU paid for half of her quite new B+B. They were amazed at the size of the houses and all the building in Ireland. And we were getting billions in other European money per year, when the countries labourers were going to New York on shopping weekends. A few years later the English tourists said they came back to stay at the b+b, knocked on the door, but the landlady said she stopped doing b+b, it was her private house now.

We all know who paid for Britain's big houses.

UK Votes to leave EU

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