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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    silverharp wrote: »
    im being harsh of course but some of this stuff is getting through an "academic" process. yep its that twitter, comedy gold for sure.

    Outside the hard sciences stuff has been getting through for years. There used to be a journal for the paranormal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,159 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That appears to be a paper from 2013 on a nonsense topic I really don't understand.
    Well, no offence, but if you really don't understand it, you're hardly qualified to say that it's nonsense, are you?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, no offence, but if you really don't understand it, you're hardly qualified to say that it's nonsense, are you?
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable, then by your definition, nobody could ever be "qualified" to declare anything nonsense.

    Since it is possible to declare something to be nonsense fairly reliably, we have a contradiction arising from your definition - which is, therefore, wrong to the same degree of reliability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    robindch wrote: »
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable, then by your definition, nobody could ever be "qualified" to declare anything nonsense.

    Since it is possible to declare something to be nonsense fairly reliably, we have a contradiction arising from your definition - which is, therefore, wrong to the same degree of reliability.

    But it is understandable to some. Maybe not to Trent but that doesn't make it nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Is a "masculine lesbian" somebody who feels themselves to be a lesbian, but trapped within the hegemonic patriarchy of a male's body?
    Nope, its a female, who feels themselves to be a male, but is trapped within the hegemonic matriarchy of a female's body.
    Or in simple terms, its the one wearing the strap-on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,159 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable . . .
    That's a strikingly unusual definition of "nonsense", Robin, Did you find it in a dictionary, or did you just make it up? :)

    I cheerfully admit to not understanding the stuff to which Trent links. With equal cheerfulness, I admit to not understanding much that is written about quantum physics. In both instances, I take this to be a reflection on my limitations. The fact that I haven't mastered (a) gender studies, or (b) quantum physics isn't a sufficient basis to dismiss them as nonsensical.

    But, then, perhaps Trent lacks my crippling self-doubt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    That's a strikingly unusual definition of "nonsense", Robin, Did you find it in a dictionary, or did you just make it up? :)

    I cheerfully admit to not understanding the stuff to which Trent links. With equal cheerfulness, I admit to not understanding much that is written about quantum physics. In both instances, I take this to be a reflection on my limitations. The fact that I haven't mastered (a) gender studies, or (b) quantum physics isn't a sufficient basis to dismiss them as nonsensical.

    But, then, perhaps Trent lacks my crippling self-doubt.

    Im sure even in the field of quantum physics its possible to pen papers that wouldn't stand up to conventional scientific analysis but the default laymen's approach would be to be guided by the experts for sure. However if someone pens an articles on vegan perspectives of patriarchal capitalism and its determinate role in gender stereotypes then its more likely not to have much merit, its just an exercise in verbal masturbation as our English teacher used to describe our homework sometimes. :pac: or it's just more post modernist garbage which lurks in certain corners of academia.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,159 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    Im sure even in the field of quantum physics its possible to pen papers that wouldn't stand up to conventional scientific analysis but the default laymen's approach would be to be guided by the experts for sure. However if someone pens an articles on vegan perspectives of patriarchal capitalism and its determinate role in gender stereotypes then its more likely not to have much merit, its just an exercise in verbal masturbation as our English teacher used to describe our homework sometimes. :pac: or it's just more post modernist garbage which lurks in certain corners of academia.
    It may be nonsense. But the person who, by his own admission, cannot understand the article is not in a position to say that it is.

    You can take an ideological position that all gender studies (or all quantum physics) is nonsense, by definition. (That's your right, but if you do I'll withdraw slowly, all the while trying to avoid making eye contact.) Or, you can master one or other of these disciplines to a point where you can understand an academic paper sufficiently well to make a judgement about whether it's a sound contribution to scholarship in the field, or nonsense. But you can't, with any credibility, simultaneously admit to being unable to understand the paper and decree that it is nonsense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It may be nonsense. But the person who, by his own admission, cannot understand the article is not in a position to say that it is.

    You can take an ideological position that all gender studies (or all quantum physics) is nonsense, by definition. (That's your right, but if you do I'll withdraw slowly, all the while trying to avoid making eye contact.) Or, you can master one or other of these disciplines to a point where you can understand an academic paper sufficiently well to make a judgement about whether it's a sound contribution to scholarship in the field, or nonsense. But you can't, with any credibility, simultaneously admit to being unable to understand the paper and decree that it is nonsense.

    You can disagree with gender studies in the way you can disagree with communism , its not to say its "nonsense" or that there is not some merit to parts of it. You generally tease it out and look for flawed assumptions, however its also safe to assume that based on some article's contents that some people try to describe reality in such bizarre ways that its dubious that they have actually shone a light on something that was ignored until now.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    396799.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    something smells fishy...

    CtXaCYgXgAAaV8j.jpg

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ Can't be easy writing text like that with a surname like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I honestly did not believe in that Angling one until I went to the website of the University of Uppsala and to the centre for gender studies to find his name and then the publication attached to it.

    I am forced to concede that it's real. But while I have to admit that I agree that one has to have a certain amount of understanding of a topic to be able to say confidently if it's nonsense or not, I have no understanding of angling and yet my Bull*****ometer is mooing like a stuck cow.

    *I'm not sorry.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I think feminist theories should be put on a computer in a deep basement at some university and never ever allowed to be connected to the net :pac:



    http://jsa.sagepub.com/content/8/1/113.abstract

    CtoUMS7W8AAFlnn.jpg:large

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think feminist theories should be put on a computer in a deep basement at some university and never ever allowed to be connected to the net
    Feminist theorizing? I'd call it 'bollocks' only I'd get into trouble.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    What makes call-out culture so toxic

    http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/a-note-on-callout-culture/
    Asam Ahmad wrote:
    Call-out culture refers to the tendency among progressives, radicals, activists, and community organizers to publicly name instances or patterns of oppressive behaviour and language use by others. People can be called out for statements and actions that are sexist, racist, ableist, and the list goes on. Because call-outs tend to be public, they can enable a particularly armchair and academic brand of activism: one in which the act of calling out is seen as an end in itself.

    What makes call-out culture so toxic is not necessarily its frequency so much as the nature and performance of the call-out itself. Especially in online venues like Twitter and Facebook, calling someone out isn’t just a private interaction between two individuals: it’s a public performance where people can demonstrate their wit or how pure their politics are. Indeed, sometimes it can feel like the performance itself is more significant than the content of the call-out. This is why “calling in” has been proposed as an alternative to calling out: calling in means speaking privately with an individual who has done some wrong, in order to address the behaviour without making a spectacle of the address itself.

    In the context of call-out culture, it is easy to forget that the individual we are calling out is a human being, and that different human beings in different social locations will be receptive to different strategies for learning and growing. For instance, most call-outs I have witnessed immediately render anyone who has committed a perceived wrong as an outsider to the community. One action becomes a reason to pass judgment on someone’s entire being, as if there is no difference between a community member or friend and a random stranger walking down the street (who is of course also someone’s friend). Call-out culture can end up mirroring what the prison industrial complex teaches us about crime and punishment: to banish and dispose of individuals rather than to engage with them as people with complicated stories and histories.

    It isn’t an exaggeration to say that there is a mild totalitarian undercurrent not just in call-out culture but also in how progressive communities police and define the bounds of who’s in and who’s out. More often than not, this boundary is constructed through the use of appropriate language and terminology – a language and terminology that are forever shifting and almost impossible to keep up with. In such a context, it is impossible not to fail at least some of the time. And what happens when someone has mastered proficiency in languages of accountability and then learned to justify all of their actions by falling back on that language? How do we hold people to account who are experts at using anti-oppressive language to justify oppressive behaviour? We don’t have a word to describe this kind of perverse exercise of power, despite the fact that it occurs on an almost daily basis in progressive circles. Perhaps we could call it anti-oppressivism.

    Humour often plays a role in call-out culture and by drawing attention to this I am not saying that wit has no place in undermining oppression; humour can be one of the most useful tools available to oppressed people. But when people are reduced to their identities of privilege (as white, cisgender, male, etc.) and mocked as such, it means we’re treating each other as if our individual social locations stand in for the total systems those parts of our identities represent. Individuals become synonymous with systems of oppression, and this can turn systemic analysis into moral judgment. Too often, when it comes to being called out, narrow definitions of a person’s identity count for everything.

    No matter the wrong we are naming, there are ways to call people out that do not reduce individuals to agents of social advantage. There are ways of calling people out that are compassionate and creative, and that recognize the whole individual instead of viewing them simply as representations of the systems from which they benefit. Paying attention to these other contexts will mean refusing to unleash all of our very real trauma onto the psyches of those we imagine represent the systems that oppress us. Given the nature of online social networks, call-outs are not going away any time soon. But reminding ourselves of what a call-out is meant to accomplish will go a long way toward creating the kinds of substantial, material changes in people’s behaviour – and in community dynamics – that we envision and need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    :pac:

    https://archive.is/nQAEr#selection-1405.0-1517.1
    Renowned opera 'Aida' cancelled at Bristol University amid race row over 'cultural appropriation'


    By Sam Dean and
    Tom Morgan
    4 October 2016 • 9:44pm



    It is a story of war between two nations, the conflict of love rivals and the looming fate of death.

    But the antagonistic themes of Aida seem to have spilled into the wings after a student production of Giuseppe Verdi’s opera was cancelled amid a row over suggestions of “cultural appropriation”.

    A theatre at the University of Bristol said yesterday it had cancelled all showings after a revolt by students.

    It is understood that there were protests amid fears that white students would be cast as leads and expected to portray Ancient Egyptians and slaves.

    The opera centres around an Ethiopian princess, Aida, who is held prisoner in Egypt, where she serves as a slave but falls in love with an Egyptian general.

    One student commented: “White washing still exists, it’s been done enough in Hollywood, look at Liz Taylor in Cleopatra.”

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Trent Houseboat


    I like the proof that it still happens is a 50 year old movie.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kids in Australia are being given a new course entitled "Resilience, Rights and Respectful Relationships".

    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-37640353

    The page on the Victoria State Government website is here and it includes links to the entire downloadable course materials, which - I can't help but note - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    robindch wrote: »
    Kids in Australia are being given a new course entitled "Resilience, Rights and Respectful Relationships".

    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-37640353

    The page on the Victoria State Government website is here and it includes links to the entire downloadable course materials, which - I can't help but note - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.

    when I saw the headline for that, my objection to religious run schools dropped a few notches :D , If I thought my kids were ever going to hear "hegemonic masculinity" in the classroom to be applied to them as a label I would either pull my kids out of the class or prep them to argue the hell out of .

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.
    Well spotted. No doubt they would justify that on the basis of "positive discrimination" and "restoring balance".


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    This is the individual behind this programme. I wouldnt want these radicals pushing this garbage at my kids, it would be like being forced to visit the Tumblr site :pac:

    Untitled.png[/QUOTE]

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    I dunno. The world's gone mad.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,548 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    robindch wrote: »
    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".
    i dunno. from all i've heard, maybe that's what australia needs...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    i dunno. from all i've heard, maybe that's what australia needs...

    if something was put together with robust Psychology that might be useful. this stuff is being put together by ideologues so you know it has all the bs gender studies talking points.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,159 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    if something was put together with robust Psychology that might be useful. this stuff is being put together by ideologues so you know it has all the bs gender studies talking points.
    This must be so because it says so in The Australian, which we all know is a beacon of moderation and sound common sense.

    Scepticism, guys, scepticism!


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    This must be so because it says so in The Australian, which we all know is a beacon of moderation and sound common sense.

    Scepticism, guys, scepticism!

    what kind of a cat-lick are you? :pac: , if you are in Australia maybe you have a perspective? , it seems like some catholics arent happy with it either? or is catholicweekly the gutter end of ctholicism? :)

    https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/safe-schools-coalition-not-so-safe/

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,159 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The whole question is highly politicised, with social conservatives lining up to denounce the programme as a sinister Plot to Pervert Our Children. The Murdoch press are taking an entirely predictable line - which doesn't mean that what they say is false, of course, but history suggests that it's likely to be incomplete and unbalanced, and could be outright mendacious. Can't really comment on the editorial stance of Catholic Weekly, since I don're read it, but there certainly is a (large) section of the Catholic press which defaults to social conservatism and support for the Liberal (read: Tory) party. Did I mention parties? There's a party political pissing contest going on here as well; the programme is promoted by the {Labor) government of the State of Victoria; the (Liberal) federal government regard them with particular loathing and will denounce all their works and pomps regardless of what their works and pomps actually are.

    In short, if you want to form an opinion about this programme, you're actually going to have to read the programme materials yourself. You could predict what The Australian would write about simply from knowing that it has to do with relationship education and it comes from a Labor state, which makes reading what they say about it a not very useful exercise.

    I myself have no opinion about the programme (since I haven't studied the materials), beyond observing that there is definitely a need for action in this area. Domestic violence is the leading cause of death and injury for women under 45 in Australia. In most comparable western countries it would come third, after vehicle accidents and suicide so, yeah, we have a problem.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The whole question is highly politicised.....

    but you would accept that "feminist theory" should not be included in state programmes? as its just a form of indoctrination. And surely "being skeptical" means looking at potential problems or the motivations of the individuals involved in putting the programme together.

    sure I havnt read the material, it wont affect my kids so Im just not that interested but Im sure somebody will over time or parents will start giving feedback after its rolled out, however if the material has been put together by ideologues then its good if everyone is on notice?



    someone linked this article , highlighting not mine but it seems to raise legitimate concerns.




    https://t.co/2Asl6uAMC6


    image.png

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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