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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If she's a class teacher, she has to be there with her class. That's how school assemblies work.

    they have them in my kids school but the whole junior school would be there so I wouldn't see why an individual teacher would need to be there



    also from the article
    “By sitting on the seat, the student is alerting others that they may be lonely. Students are then encouraged to include the student in their play,” it read.

    The school hopes the scheme will help create “a friendly, caring and inclusive school environment”.

    Im a bit sceptical of these kinds of things, its better for kids to learn that not everyone is going to like them. In my own son's class they weren't allowed to play football for about 6 month because it wasn't "inclusive" , sometimes the teachers should just back off and let the kids find their own niche.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    silverharp wrote: »
    is it good for the kids though? , kids want to be loud and express themselves , why doesn't the teacher just avoid the assemblies?

    Seems like a good lesson for the kids to be aware of the difficulties others face. Kids can be loud and express themselves at other times (mentioned in the article and also at home).

    It also gives kids ownership over a kind act. They are the ones really going through with it. It also seems to discourage clapping as opposed to banning it outright.

    I would also point out that while I disagree with your school not allowing football for a few months I fail to see an issue with a lonely chair as it were. It doesn't mean that the entire school will suddenly like this kid but it gives another opportunity for them to help each other. Given the obvious dangers loneliness can cause in later life it is a pretty good thing for them to see that if they are struggling they can reach out and there are people who will help. An important lesson too often ignored in the face of mental health problems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    they have them in my kids school but the whole junior school would be there so I wouldn't see why an individual teacher would need to be there
    Each teacher is in charge of their own class - bringing them in on time, making sure they sit where they should sit, dealing with any issues that arise, taking leadership if the class happens to be performing or participating in the assembly in some special role, getting them out again and back to class.

    Plus, there's more than the practicalities involved. The point is that the teacher and the class share in the same experience. And the presence of the teachers as well as the pupils is symbolic.
    silverharp wrote: »
    Im a bit sceptical of these kinds of things, its better for kids to learn that not everyone is going to like them. In my own son's class they weren't allowed to play football for about 6 month because it wasn't "inclusive" , sometimes the teachers should just back off and let the kids find their own niche.
    Mmm. Development of social skills is one of the most important things a kid learns (or one of the most disastrous things a kid fails to learn) in primary school. So offering them strategies for dealing with their own feelings of isolation, or recognising feelings of isolation in others, is very important. It doesn't particulary have to be this strategy but, yeah, the issue is important. "We musn't talk about it" and "stop bothering other people with your emotional needs" are not the kind of messages we want to indoctrinate in primary school children.

    (Plus, if a kid is feeling lonely or neglected, the reason is almost certainly not that "not everybody likes them".)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    internet lollypop if you can figure out what his might be about, it seems to be in the same ballpark as a feminist analysis of glaciers :pac:

    CrrITXIWEAAzpmo.jpg

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    silverharp wrote: »
    [...]hegemonic masculinity is embodied, racialized, and sexualized at work in ways that subordinate feminity
    Nat Burke should contact Fr McKevitt of Alive! and discuss "men no longer being able to man up".

    It's a discussion I'd pay good money to hear.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    fr mckevitt would probably get a bit confused and just fluff the opportunity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I almost hope the US college system implodes in on itself in a college debt black hole :pac:

    something something male and female is a social construct or something

    Cr1lgSmXEAAGJJN.jpg:large

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Trent Houseboat


    That appears to be a paper from 2013 on a nonsense topic I really don't understand.

    Is that a reason to wish rid of third level education or just the ramblings of one gobsh*te?

    Edit just to be clear, I'm calling the author of that paper a gobsh*te, not you silver.

    BTW I assume you're getting these papers from @RealPeerReview which is where I came across the following gem [url] https://mobile.twitter.com/RealPeerReview/status/744276511155314688[/url]


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BTW I assume you're getting these papers from @RealPeerReview which is where I came across the following gem [url] https://mobile.twitter.com/RealPeerReview/status/744276511155314688[/url]
    Mmmm, there's some great stuff down that tunnel!

    "The Gender of Pregnancy: Masculine Lesbians Talk about Reproduction"

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10894160.2012.653766?src=recsys

    Is a "masculine lesbian" somebody who feels themselves to be a lesbian, but trapped within the hegemonic patriarchy of a male's body?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    That appears to be a paper from 2013 on a nonsense topic I really don't understand.

    Is that a reason to wish rid of third level education or just the ramblings of one gobsh*te?

    Edit just to be clear, I'm calling the author of that paper a gobsh*te, not you silver.

    BTW I assume you're getting these papers from @RealPeerReview which is where I came across the following gem [url] https://mobile.twitter.com/RealPeerReview/status/744276511155314688[/url]

    im being harsh of course but some of this stuff is getting through an "academic" process. yep its that twitter, comedy gold for sure.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    silverharp wrote: »
    im being harsh of course but some of this stuff is getting through an "academic" process. yep its that twitter, comedy gold for sure.

    Outside the hard sciences stuff has been getting through for years. There used to be a journal for the paranormal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That appears to be a paper from 2013 on a nonsense topic I really don't understand.
    Well, no offence, but if you really don't understand it, you're hardly qualified to say that it's nonsense, are you?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Well, no offence, but if you really don't understand it, you're hardly qualified to say that it's nonsense, are you?
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable, then by your definition, nobody could ever be "qualified" to declare anything nonsense.

    Since it is possible to declare something to be nonsense fairly reliably, we have a contradiction arising from your definition - which is, therefore, wrong to the same degree of reliability.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Qs


    robindch wrote: »
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable, then by your definition, nobody could ever be "qualified" to declare anything nonsense.

    Since it is possible to declare something to be nonsense fairly reliably, we have a contradiction arising from your definition - which is, therefore, wrong to the same degree of reliability.

    But it is understandable to some. Maybe not to Trent but that doesn't make it nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Is a "masculine lesbian" somebody who feels themselves to be a lesbian, but trapped within the hegemonic patriarchy of a male's body?
    Nope, its a female, who feels themselves to be a male, but is trapped within the hegemonic matriarchy of a female's body.
    Or in simple terms, its the one wearing the strap-on.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    robindch wrote: »
    On an equally pedantic note, if the topic is truly nonsense which, by my definition is written to be not understandable . . .
    That's a strikingly unusual definition of "nonsense", Robin, Did you find it in a dictionary, or did you just make it up? :)

    I cheerfully admit to not understanding the stuff to which Trent links. With equal cheerfulness, I admit to not understanding much that is written about quantum physics. In both instances, I take this to be a reflection on my limitations. The fact that I haven't mastered (a) gender studies, or (b) quantum physics isn't a sufficient basis to dismiss them as nonsensical.

    But, then, perhaps Trent lacks my crippling self-doubt.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    That's a strikingly unusual definition of "nonsense", Robin, Did you find it in a dictionary, or did you just make it up? :)

    I cheerfully admit to not understanding the stuff to which Trent links. With equal cheerfulness, I admit to not understanding much that is written about quantum physics. In both instances, I take this to be a reflection on my limitations. The fact that I haven't mastered (a) gender studies, or (b) quantum physics isn't a sufficient basis to dismiss them as nonsensical.

    But, then, perhaps Trent lacks my crippling self-doubt.

    Im sure even in the field of quantum physics its possible to pen papers that wouldn't stand up to conventional scientific analysis but the default laymen's approach would be to be guided by the experts for sure. However if someone pens an articles on vegan perspectives of patriarchal capitalism and its determinate role in gender stereotypes then its more likely not to have much merit, its just an exercise in verbal masturbation as our English teacher used to describe our homework sometimes. :pac: or it's just more post modernist garbage which lurks in certain corners of academia.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    Im sure even in the field of quantum physics its possible to pen papers that wouldn't stand up to conventional scientific analysis but the default laymen's approach would be to be guided by the experts for sure. However if someone pens an articles on vegan perspectives of patriarchal capitalism and its determinate role in gender stereotypes then its more likely not to have much merit, its just an exercise in verbal masturbation as our English teacher used to describe our homework sometimes. :pac: or it's just more post modernist garbage which lurks in certain corners of academia.
    It may be nonsense. But the person who, by his own admission, cannot understand the article is not in a position to say that it is.

    You can take an ideological position that all gender studies (or all quantum physics) is nonsense, by definition. (That's your right, but if you do I'll withdraw slowly, all the while trying to avoid making eye contact.) Or, you can master one or other of these disciplines to a point where you can understand an academic paper sufficiently well to make a judgement about whether it's a sound contribution to scholarship in the field, or nonsense. But you can't, with any credibility, simultaneously admit to being unable to understand the paper and decree that it is nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It may be nonsense. But the person who, by his own admission, cannot understand the article is not in a position to say that it is.

    You can take an ideological position that all gender studies (or all quantum physics) is nonsense, by definition. (That's your right, but if you do I'll withdraw slowly, all the while trying to avoid making eye contact.) Or, you can master one or other of these disciplines to a point where you can understand an academic paper sufficiently well to make a judgement about whether it's a sound contribution to scholarship in the field, or nonsense. But you can't, with any credibility, simultaneously admit to being unable to understand the paper and decree that it is nonsense.

    You can disagree with gender studies in the way you can disagree with communism , its not to say its "nonsense" or that there is not some merit to parts of it. You generally tease it out and look for flawed assumptions, however its also safe to assume that based on some article's contents that some people try to describe reality in such bizarre ways that its dubious that they have actually shone a light on something that was ignored until now.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    396799.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    something smells fishy...

    CtXaCYgXgAAaV8j.jpg

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ Can't be easy writing text like that with a surname like that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I honestly did not believe in that Angling one until I went to the website of the University of Uppsala and to the centre for gender studies to find his name and then the publication attached to it.

    I am forced to concede that it's real. But while I have to admit that I agree that one has to have a certain amount of understanding of a topic to be able to say confidently if it's nonsense or not, I have no understanding of angling and yet my Bull*****ometer is mooing like a stuck cow.

    *I'm not sorry.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I think feminist theories should be put on a computer in a deep basement at some university and never ever allowed to be connected to the net :pac:



    http://jsa.sagepub.com/content/8/1/113.abstract

    CtoUMS7W8AAFlnn.jpg:large

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    silverharp wrote: »
    I think feminist theories should be put on a computer in a deep basement at some university and never ever allowed to be connected to the net
    Feminist theorizing? I'd call it 'bollocks' only I'd get into trouble.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    What makes call-out culture so toxic

    http://www.filmsforaction.org/articles/a-note-on-callout-culture/
    Asam Ahmad wrote:
    Call-out culture refers to the tendency among progressives, radicals, activists, and community organizers to publicly name instances or patterns of oppressive behaviour and language use by others. People can be called out for statements and actions that are sexist, racist, ableist, and the list goes on. Because call-outs tend to be public, they can enable a particularly armchair and academic brand of activism: one in which the act of calling out is seen as an end in itself.

    What makes call-out culture so toxic is not necessarily its frequency so much as the nature and performance of the call-out itself. Especially in online venues like Twitter and Facebook, calling someone out isn’t just a private interaction between two individuals: it’s a public performance where people can demonstrate their wit or how pure their politics are. Indeed, sometimes it can feel like the performance itself is more significant than the content of the call-out. This is why “calling in” has been proposed as an alternative to calling out: calling in means speaking privately with an individual who has done some wrong, in order to address the behaviour without making a spectacle of the address itself.

    In the context of call-out culture, it is easy to forget that the individual we are calling out is a human being, and that different human beings in different social locations will be receptive to different strategies for learning and growing. For instance, most call-outs I have witnessed immediately render anyone who has committed a perceived wrong as an outsider to the community. One action becomes a reason to pass judgment on someone’s entire being, as if there is no difference between a community member or friend and a random stranger walking down the street (who is of course also someone’s friend). Call-out culture can end up mirroring what the prison industrial complex teaches us about crime and punishment: to banish and dispose of individuals rather than to engage with them as people with complicated stories and histories.

    It isn’t an exaggeration to say that there is a mild totalitarian undercurrent not just in call-out culture but also in how progressive communities police and define the bounds of who’s in and who’s out. More often than not, this boundary is constructed through the use of appropriate language and terminology – a language and terminology that are forever shifting and almost impossible to keep up with. In such a context, it is impossible not to fail at least some of the time. And what happens when someone has mastered proficiency in languages of accountability and then learned to justify all of their actions by falling back on that language? How do we hold people to account who are experts at using anti-oppressive language to justify oppressive behaviour? We don’t have a word to describe this kind of perverse exercise of power, despite the fact that it occurs on an almost daily basis in progressive circles. Perhaps we could call it anti-oppressivism.

    Humour often plays a role in call-out culture and by drawing attention to this I am not saying that wit has no place in undermining oppression; humour can be one of the most useful tools available to oppressed people. But when people are reduced to their identities of privilege (as white, cisgender, male, etc.) and mocked as such, it means we’re treating each other as if our individual social locations stand in for the total systems those parts of our identities represent. Individuals become synonymous with systems of oppression, and this can turn systemic analysis into moral judgment. Too often, when it comes to being called out, narrow definitions of a person’s identity count for everything.

    No matter the wrong we are naming, there are ways to call people out that do not reduce individuals to agents of social advantage. There are ways of calling people out that are compassionate and creative, and that recognize the whole individual instead of viewing them simply as representations of the systems from which they benefit. Paying attention to these other contexts will mean refusing to unleash all of our very real trauma onto the psyches of those we imagine represent the systems that oppress us. Given the nature of online social networks, call-outs are not going away any time soon. But reminding ourselves of what a call-out is meant to accomplish will go a long way toward creating the kinds of substantial, material changes in people’s behaviour – and in community dynamics – that we envision and need.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    :pac:

    https://archive.is/nQAEr#selection-1405.0-1517.1
    Renowned opera 'Aida' cancelled at Bristol University amid race row over 'cultural appropriation'


    By Sam Dean and
    Tom Morgan
    4 October 2016 • 9:44pm



    It is a story of war between two nations, the conflict of love rivals and the looming fate of death.

    But the antagonistic themes of Aida seem to have spilled into the wings after a student production of Giuseppe Verdi’s opera was cancelled amid a row over suggestions of “cultural appropriation”.

    A theatre at the University of Bristol said yesterday it had cancelled all showings after a revolt by students.

    It is understood that there were protests amid fears that white students would be cast as leads and expected to portray Ancient Egyptians and slaves.

    The opera centres around an Ethiopian princess, Aida, who is held prisoner in Egypt, where she serves as a slave but falls in love with an Egyptian general.

    One student commented: “White washing still exists, it’s been done enough in Hollywood, look at Liz Taylor in Cleopatra.”

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,116 ✭✭✭Trent Houseboat


    I like the proof that it still happens is a 50 year old movie.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kids in Australia are being given a new course entitled "Resilience, Rights and Respectful Relationships".

    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-37640353

    The page on the Victoria State Government website is here and it includes links to the entire downloadable course materials, which - I can't help but note - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    robindch wrote: »
    Kids in Australia are being given a new course entitled "Resilience, Rights and Respectful Relationships".

    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-37640353

    The page on the Victoria State Government website is here and it includes links to the entire downloadable course materials, which - I can't help but note - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.

    when I saw the headline for that, my objection to religious run schools dropped a few notches :D , If I thought my kids were ever going to hear "hegemonic masculinity" in the classroom to be applied to them as a label I would either pull my kids out of the class or prep them to argue the hell out of .

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    - appear to have been written by a team entirely composed of women.
    Well spotted. No doubt they would justify that on the basis of "positive discrimination" and "restoring balance".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    This is the individual behind this programme. I wouldnt want these radicals pushing this garbage at my kids, it would be like being forced to visit the Tumblr site :pac:

    Untitled.png[/QUOTE]

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    I dunno. The world's gone mad.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,510 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    robindch wrote: »
    The course includes a vast amount of material in over 800 pages, including prose on the dangers of porn, male privilege and something called "hegemonic masculinity" which "requires boys and men to be heterosexual, tough, athletic and emotionless, and encourages the control and dominance of men over women".
    i dunno. from all i've heard, maybe that's what australia needs...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    i dunno. from all i've heard, maybe that's what australia needs...

    if something was put together with robust Psychology that might be useful. this stuff is being put together by ideologues so you know it has all the bs gender studies talking points.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    silverharp wrote: »
    if something was put together with robust Psychology that might be useful. this stuff is being put together by ideologues so you know it has all the bs gender studies talking points.
    This must be so because it says so in The Australian, which we all know is a beacon of moderation and sound common sense.

    Scepticism, guys, scepticism!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    This must be so because it says so in The Australian, which we all know is a beacon of moderation and sound common sense.

    Scepticism, guys, scepticism!

    what kind of a cat-lick are you? :pac: , if you are in Australia maybe you have a perspective? , it seems like some catholics arent happy with it either? or is catholicweekly the gutter end of ctholicism? :)

    https://www.catholicweekly.com.au/safe-schools-coalition-not-so-safe/

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The whole question is highly politicised, with social conservatives lining up to denounce the programme as a sinister Plot to Pervert Our Children. The Murdoch press are taking an entirely predictable line - which doesn't mean that what they say is false, of course, but history suggests that it's likely to be incomplete and unbalanced, and could be outright mendacious. Can't really comment on the editorial stance of Catholic Weekly, since I don're read it, but there certainly is a (large) section of the Catholic press which defaults to social conservatism and support for the Liberal (read: Tory) party. Did I mention parties? There's a party political pissing contest going on here as well; the programme is promoted by the {Labor) government of the State of Victoria; the (Liberal) federal government regard them with particular loathing and will denounce all their works and pomps regardless of what their works and pomps actually are.

    In short, if you want to form an opinion about this programme, you're actually going to have to read the programme materials yourself. You could predict what The Australian would write about simply from knowing that it has to do with relationship education and it comes from a Labor state, which makes reading what they say about it a not very useful exercise.

    I myself have no opinion about the programme (since I haven't studied the materials), beyond observing that there is definitely a need for action in this area. Domestic violence is the leading cause of death and injury for women under 45 in Australia. In most comparable western countries it would come third, after vehicle accidents and suicide so, yeah, we have a problem.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    The whole question is highly politicised.....

    but you would accept that "feminist theory" should not be included in state programmes? as its just a form of indoctrination. And surely "being skeptical" means looking at potential problems or the motivations of the individuals involved in putting the programme together.

    sure I havnt read the material, it wont affect my kids so Im just not that interested but Im sure somebody will over time or parents will start giving feedback after its rolled out, however if the material has been put together by ideologues then its good if everyone is on notice?



    someone linked this article , highlighting not mine but it seems to raise legitimate concerns.




    https://t.co/2Asl6uAMC6


    image.png

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    but you would accept that "feminist theory" should not be included in state programmes? as its just a form of indoctrination.
    I'm not sure feminist theory is a form of indoctrination; probably fairer to say that someone might be indoctrinated with feminist theory as easily as with any other theory, and those who find feminist theories unpalatable would find such indoctrination unpalatable.
    silverharp wrote: »
    And surely "being skeptical" means looking at potential problems or the motivations of the individuals involved in putting the programme together.
    sure I havnt read the material, it wont affect my kids so Im just not that interested but Im sure somebody will over time or parents will start giving feedback after its rolled out, however if the material has been put together by ideologues then its good if everyone is on notice? someone linked this article , highlighting not mine but it seems to raise legitimate concerns.
    I'd say being skeptical means looking at the actual programme first, rather then questioning the motives of those involved based on someone else's opinions of the programme? It really should stand or fall on it's own merits, rather than being damned for the perceived failings of those connected with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Absolam has it. Unless you're advocating an "education" entirely devoid of values, theories or beliefs of any kind (even if such a thing is possible) what you term "indoctrination" is unavoidable. The question is not whether we inculcate beliefs and values in our children, but what beliefs and values we are to inculcate. Terming the inculcation of particular beliefs and values "indoctrination" tells me that you don't share those particular beliefs and values, but nothing more.

    And I'd just point to the irony of quoting an opinion piece from The Australian to show that the editorial stance of The Australian is justified.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Absolam wrote: »
    I'm not sure feminist theory is a form of indoctrination; probably fairer to say that someone might be indoctrinated with feminist theory as easily as with any other theory, and those who find feminist theories unpalatable would find such indoctrination unpalatable.

    its indoctrinating kids with feminist theory and the kids will not know its unpalatable and most of the parents will be oblivious. wasnt there some Australian initiative about curtailing religious indoctrination on the basis that the state requires kids to attend school, the same care should be taken here.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Look, a world in which Tony Abbot can become Prime Minister of Australia is clearly a world which needs more feminist theory, not less! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Absolam has it. Unless you're advocating an "education" entirely devoid of values, theories or beliefs of any kind (even if such a thing is possible) what you term "indoctrination" is unavoidable. The question is not whether we inculcate beliefs and values in our children, but what beliefs and values we are to inculcate. Terming the inculcation of particular beliefs and values "indoctrination" tells me that you don't share those particular beliefs and values, but nothing more.

    And I'd just point to the irony of quoting an opinion piece from The Australian to show that the editorial stance of The Australian is justified.

    ok but whats is your view of feminist theory? should boys be thought about dismantling "the Patriarchy" "white male privilege" and all the other stuff that come out of gender departments as received fact? surely if you are putting a programme together for kids on relationships there are good academic methodologies out there to highlight why bad things happen in relationships and so educate kids without reference to political ideology


    I get it you dont like the australian, but there are some academics named in the piece, if the paper misrepresented their views or the academics are charlatans maybe you could find a hole instead of relying on impugning the source

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I''ve told you, silverharp, I haven't looked at the course materials and have no opinion about them. I just don't trust the Australian - and particularly not an opinion piece by Bettian Arndt - to give me a balanced presentation of the issues at stake here. I'm certainly not impugning the academics she quotes, but nor am I assuming that they would agree with her presentation of their views, or with the conclusion she draws.

    Basically, if I cared to know about this, I wouldn't be starting my researches with the Murdoch press. That would really be a better starting point for someone who did't care to know about this. This thread is for calling attention to "fully baked left wing vegan loonies", which is a noble and worthy cause, but it's not a cause that's advanced - if anything, the reverse - by reposting chunks from The Australian. The Australian exemplifies attitudes for which another thread is maintained.

    "Should boys be thought about dismantling "the Patriarchy" "white male privilege" and all the other stuff that come out of gender departments as received fact?" Well, none of the news reports - not even Bettina Arndt in the Australian - says that this course does teach that. It looks to me as if you're just having a Pavlovian reaction to the word "feminist", to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I''ve told you, silverharp, I haven't looked at the course materials and have no opinion about them. I just don't trust the Australian - and particularly not an opinion piece by Bettian Arndt - to give me a balanced presentation of the issues at stake here. I'm certainly not impugning the academics she quotes, but nor am I assuming that they would agree with her presentation of their views, or with the conclusion she draws.

    Basically, if I cared to know about this, I wouldn't be starting my researches with the Murdoch press. That would really be a better starting point for someone who did't care to know about this. This thread is for calling attention to "fully baked left wing vegan loonies", which is a noble and worthy cause, but it's not a cause that's advanced - if anything, the reverse - by reposting chunks from The Australian. The Australian exemplifies attitudes for which another thread is maintained.

    "Should boys be thought about dismantling "the Patriarchy" "white male privilege" and all the other stuff that come out of gender departments as received fact?" Well, none of the news reports - not even Bettina Arndt in the Australian - says that this course does teach that. It looks to me as if you're just having a Pavlovian reaction to the word "feminist", to be honest.

    whats balanced media this day? whatever the Oz equivalent of the Guardian , might well want boys to hear about white male privilege so they aint going to run critical articles. Pavlovian is a bit of a smear word so Ill not agree to that however if feminists or self proclaimed Marxists are involved in this I would have a default scepticism because they tend not to be rigorous academics

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    nice juxta here


    https://t.co/cekMpj7voQ

    Cu9APonWIAANscx.jpg


    South African vegan cookies wanting to get rid of western science and start over

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,846 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The Australian equivalent of the Guardian is, in fact, the Guardian, which has an Australian bureau and produces an online Australian edition (having spotted a gap in the Australian media landscape for a left-of-centre quality daily). A search on their Australian site for "respectful relationships" produces this opinion piece. The author, by way of background, is a well-known activist on family violence who became so when her 11-year old son was murdered by her estranged and mentally-ill husband.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    silverharp wrote: »
    its indoctrinating kids with feminist theory and the kids will not know its unpalatable and most of the parents will be oblivious. wasnt there some Australian initiative about curtailing religious indoctrination on the basis that the state requires kids to attend school, the same care should be taken here.
    Is it? How much of the programme have you read?


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