UK Votes to leave EU

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 12:38PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think Scotland wants to be seen as less little Englander than England too.

Well, it isn't little Englander at all. It generally has an outlook on the world that is a lot closer to ours, particularly as you go further away from the English border.

They were more industrially successful than Ireland due to the availability of mineral wealth in the Scottish lowlands, but the history in the rest of Scotland has huge parallels to Ireland e.g. the highland clearances, emigration to North America and Australia/NZ.

Ireland definitely had a more extreme version of this, but Scotland was basically on the receiving end of more or less the same treatment.

I don't think most Scots have a view that they were an imperial power and many would have a sense of having family who were scattered all over the place due to abysmal 19th century UK government policy.

Modern Scotland's also completely at odds with the Tories when it comes to social and economic policy. It's far more socially focused.

catbear · 16-10-2016 12:41PM

The thing about Scots is that they did it to themselves, thinking about the rootlessness of Glencoe gives me shivers.

Todd Toddington III · 16-10-2016 12:42PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

We are not talking about the army here, we are talking about Irish Republicans. Again I, repeat. If they cared so much for innocent life, why did they plant bombs in Shopping Malls on busy Saturday afternoons.

I thought we were talking about Brexit?

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 12:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Right from the start, could take many years to regain membership with the risk of Spain vetoing any such application.

Rajoy has said he has no grounds to veto an independent Scottish application.

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 12:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Rajoy has said he has no grounds to veto an independent Scottish application.

Good!

I can assure you, it would have consequences for Spain if it were seen as a bully. A lot of tourists from these islands: Scots, Irish and pro-remain English or those with Scottish and Irish heritage could well suddenly start seeing Spain as unfriendly.

It could also actually cause serious political hostility in Spain itself from the Basques and Catalans and even others.

It would be a very stupid move from a PR point of view. I'm glad to see they're copping on!

steddyeddy · 16-10-2016 12:46PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Right from the start, could take many years to regain membership with the risk of Spain vetoing any such application.

Where did they say they'd veto an independent Scottish application to the EU?

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 12:47PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Where did they say they'd veto an independent Scottish application to the EU?

I would say it probably didn't, but a UK tabloid asked a random (and possibly fictitious) Spanish person a related question and then attributed it to "Spain".

Todd Toddington III · 16-10-2016 12:47PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So they were terrorists then?

Terrorist or freedom fighter, depends really on who the winner is

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 12:50PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Where did they say they'd veto an independent Scottish application to the EU?

He never did. Here is the text of an interview he gave to El Pias newspaper.
He clearly says that he would have nothing to veto an independent Scottish application with.

TRANSLATION

El País: There are serious problems facing this country: Catalonia, the crisis of the monarchy, the crisis of the set of Spanish institutions, in the political system. The three crises would require decisive actions on your part as head of the government, and on the three we do not see any clear initiative on the table. What is your idea of action with respect to the problem of Catalonia?

Rajoy: Catalonia is one of the most important topics we face at the moment, and the position which I defend as a political leader, as a member of the Partido Popular, and as a Spaniard, is abundantly known. Spain is Europe’s most ancient nation, which achieved its unity centuries ago. Catalonia and the rest of Spain have never lived apart. The links which unite us are of every sort, links of affection, history, business, personal… and my position in that sense is clear. As president of the Government I have certain obligations, naturally to comply with and ensure compliance with the law. That is to say, I cannot authorise a referendum in Catalonia. I don’t want to, but that’s beside the point, I can’t, I don’t want to authorise a referendum for example like that in Scotland for the simple reason that national sovereignty corresponds to the Spanish people, according to the Constitution. And therefore, if there were no change to the Constitution, a government, or even a parliament, would never be able to authorise a referendum like that which is planned in Scotland. It is surprising that there are still those who have not realised something as simple as that. For myself, the only thing I want to say is that I have never refused to talk. In fact I have done so on numerous occasions, but it’s obvious that I have to fulfil my obligations as president of the Government, and I will fulfil them. If they want to change the Constitution procedures exist for that.

El País: Talking of Scotland, are you going to use your veto in order to prevent Scotland becoming a member of the EU if it votes for independence?

Rajoy: The cases of Scotland and Catalonia are very different. The United Kingdom doesn’t have a written constitution. But besides the right to self-determination was recognised in, as I recall, only three constitutions: that of the USSR, that of Yugoslavia, and that of Ethiopia. On the other hand it’s quite reasonable that no country should have a clause with those characteristics. The only thing I want to say is that this is a fact, not a court ruling or an opinion: Any part of a country integrated within the EU which leaves that country, logically is left outside the EU, not because I say so but because the treaties say it.

El País: Would you use your veto in the EU?

Rajoy: I can’t use my veto for nothing. I could only use the veto so that it were not out. Because it’s that this is not a problem of veto. It’s that it automatically leaves and therefore I can’t veto it, it’s that it leaves.

El País: I am referring to its later accession.

Rajoy: It would have to put itself in the queue. We would be in another story. We’re not going to get ahead of events.

First Up · 16-10-2016 12:52PM

Deleted User wrote:

Right from the start, could take many years to regain membership with the risk of Spain vetoing any such application.

Spain had understandable concerns over Scottish secession while the UK was an EU member. Now that the UK is leaving, Scotland's situation is very different and so will be attitudes in Spain and Brussels.

I'm not convinced an independent Scotland is viable but I don't see a veto on EU membership as one of their bigger problems.

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 12:52PM

I can't see why it would have to "put it self in the queue".

Scotland is already in the EU, just as part of the UK.

The UK has decided to drag it out of the EU and it is simply putting itself back in.

That statement is quite vindictive tbh.

Fratton Fred · 16-10-2016 12:55PM

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Terrorist or freedom fighter, depends who the winner is?

Not really. Detonating a bomb in a packed shopping centre or restaurant is pretty much an unambiguous act of terrorism.

indioblack · 16-10-2016 12:56PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Here's what Boris Johnson wrote about the EU in an unpublished article. The leave voters should feel really really stupid now.

Boris Johnson has said Britain’s continued membership of the EU would be a “boon for the world and for Europe” in an unpublished newspaper column in which he wrestles with his decision to back or oppose Brexit.

In a Telegraph article, written days before a published version in which he backed leaving, the foreign secretary wrote of the EU: “This is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it?”

The story I got from watching the news this morning was that this article was part of Johnson's way of helping himself to make up his mind as to whether he should support Remain or Leave. A couple of days before he threw his cap into the ring for Brexit. If he was that undecided so close to the start of the campaign why not be a don't know, an undecided? Or was he simply being opportunistic? More Conservative Party games.
I was undecided - and felt I didn't know enough to make a responsible choice for change - so I voted Remain. Only time, a long time, will tell if my vote was wise or not.
I'll add a fantasy scenario to illustrate a problem this Referendum business has highlighted for me.
Imagine a set of circumstances in which the UK does not now leave the EU.
"Sorry lads, bit of a cock-up here - we're staying". A period of embarrassed tail between the legs - and then everything is alright - or is it?
Still not part of the Euro - that's been good so far - but it must cause problems further down the road.
A return to vocal Euro skepticism - an updated "Up yours, Delors".
Europe seen as being full of foreigners.
We aren't alone in having our concerns about the EU - but we certainly seem to have been identified as being more skeptical than others - maybe we do have more than our fair share of doubters.
Lastly, as has been said elsewhere, any price to be paid for leaving will be paid by those least able to afford it.
I do hope leaving works, because we look slightly foolish at the moment - and may start to appear stupid over time.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 12:57PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I can't see why it would have to "put it self in the queue".

Scotland is already in the EU, just as part of the UK.

The UK has decided to drag it out of the EU and it is simply putting itself back in.

That statement is quite vindictive tbh.

Scotland would have to put itself in the queue because Scotland doesnt exist today in the sense of being a member of the EU. It is in the EU because the UK is. When the UK leaves, it is neither in the EU, nor a state. It would exist if it seceded. And could then apply. Joining the queue. Which I am sure it would jump a few places, but nevertheless, it cannot not leave when the UK does.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 01:00PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Scotland would have to put itself in the queue because Scotland doesnt exist today in the sense of being a member of the EU. It is in the EU because the UK is. When the UK leaves, it is neither in the EU, nor a state. It would exist if it seceded. And could then apply. Joining the queue. Which I am sure it would jump a few places, but nevertheless, it cannot not leave when the UK does.

And that forces it to look for independence if it wants to remain in the EU.

Situation is very stark for the survival of the UK as we know it.

Fratton Fred · 16-10-2016 01:01PM

It does make you wonder why a political party that is so adamant that Scotland can flourish as an independent nation, is so desperate to join the eu.

greendom · 16-10-2016 01:06PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does make you wonder why a political party that is so adamant that Scotland can flourish as an independent nation, is so desperate to join the eu.

Like virtually every country in Western/Central Europe over the last 60 years. The UK is very much the exception in thinking it would be better off as a completely independent nation.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-10-2016 01:11PM

catbear wrote: »

The thing about Scots is that they did it to themselves, thinking about the rootlessness of Glencoe gives me shivers.

Back here our population still haven't recovered from the famine.

But not as big an event as 38 people murdered back in 1692.

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

I can assure you, it would have consequences for Spain if it were seen as a bully. A lot of tourists from these islands: Scots, Irish and pro-remain English or those with Scottish and Irish heritage could well suddenly start seeing Spain as unfriendly.

Aren't you forgetting that holidays in Spain started during Franco's time ?

Or that the nearest alternative is North Africa.

More importantly with Sterling so low , they won't be looking for more expensive alternatives.

Or what about the ex-pats , will they be taking the next plane home ?

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 01:17PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Back here our population still haven't recovered from the famine.

But not as big an event as 38 people murdered back in 1692.

Aren't you forgetting that holidays in Spain started during Franco's time ?

Or that the nearest alternative is North Africa.

More importantly with Sterling so low , they won't be looking for more expensive alternatives.

Or what about the ex-pats , will they be taking the next plane home ?

They may well have but Franco kept his nose out of UK business other than Gibraltar which most British types think is "abroad" anyway.

This situation is highly politicised and I think they could find themselves in a battle they won't win either from a political or public opinion point of view.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-10-2016 01:20PM

First Up wrote: »

I'm not convinced an independent Scotland is viable but I don't see a veto on EU membership as one of their bigger problems.

Like Norway they export energy and buy manufactured goods, so EU membership is win-win.

Size and population are similar to ours. And I can't see them leaving the Common Travel Area.

If they are poorer than the UK then they'd benefit from EU aid. Then again so would most of the the UK outside London / South East.

A lot depends on how the UK's assets and debts are shared out. And of course there is the loophole of Scotland already being in the UK. And of course of the separate parts of Germany and Czechoslovakia and a few of the parts of Yugoslavia now being in the EU

A Little Pony · 16-10-2016 01:20PM

James Connolly would be rolling in his grave that Ireland is part of the capitalistic tyrant machine which is the EU.

steddyeddy · 16-10-2016 01:22PM

greendom wrote: »

Like virtually every country in Western/Central Europe over the last 60 years. The UK is very much the exception in thinking it would be better off as a completely independent nation.

Being in a single market doesn't make a nation less independent.

GreenFolder2 · 16-10-2016 01:25PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Scotland would have to put itself in the queue because Scotland doesnt exist today in the sense of being a member of the EU. It is in the EU because the UK is. When the UK leaves, it is neither in the EU, nor a state. It would exist if it seceded. And could then apply. Joining the queue. Which I am sure it would jump a few places, but nevertheless, it cannot not leave when the UK does.

Except that the EU granted everyone in Scotland citizenship. A 3rd party is stripping that.

I think there's a very strong argument for instant rejoin to be played out in the courts.

Calina · 16-10-2016 01:25PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

James Connolly would be rolling in his grave that Ireland is part of the capitalistic tyrant machine which is the EU.

I'm not so sure given that a lot of worker protection is coming through EU regulations. One of the key reasons that the UK wanted out was not because the EU was against protecting labour, but because it protected it too much. The key issue they are screaming blue murder about is the freedom of movement of labour.

That being said, one of the things which worries me about some people in Ireland is they forget 1916 was 100 years ago and keep projecting onto men who are long dead. You don't know what Connolly would think and to project your desired belief on to him is arrogant.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 01:28PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

James Connolly would be rolling in his grave that Ireland is part of the capitalistic tyrant machine which is the EU.

The all new striding forward all alone UK will not be capitalist?

Unlike some who are bound to notions from the 16th century you cannot slavishly adhere to what somebody in the past thought.

I think Connolly of all of them would have been in favour of joining the social project that was the EC.

the evasion_kid · 16-10-2016 01:29PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does make you wonder why a political party that is so adamant that Scotland can flourish as an independent nation, is so desperate to join the eu.

There's irish Republicans on this thread who are in support of the EU...how odd can ya get

A Little Pony · 16-10-2016 01:32PM

Calina wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

James Connolly would be rolling in his grave that Ireland is part of the capitalistic tyrant machine which is the EU.

I'm not so sure given that a lot of worker protection is coming through EU regulations. One of the key reasons that the UK wanted out was not because the EU was against protecting labour, but because it protected it too much. The key issue they are screaming blue murder about is the freedom of movement of labour.

That being said, one of the things which worries me about some people in Ireland is they forget 1916 was 100 years ago and keep projecting onto men who are long dead. You don't know what Connolly would think and to project your desired belief on to him is arrogant.

I think its pretty obvious what Connolly would think. He didn't enter the GPO so laws for his nation would be made in Brussels.

The Rape of Lucretia · 16-10-2016 01:33PM

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Except that the EU granted everyone in Scotland citizenship. A 3rd party is stripping that.

I think there's a very strong argument for instant rejoin to be played out in the courts.

It granted all citizens of the UK EU citizenship. If those citizens of the UK democratically decide to renounce their EU citizenship, then they all lose it. In or out is not on an individual basis.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 01:33PM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

There's irish Republicans on this thread who are in support of the EU...how odd can ya get

Why would Irish republicans be against it?
I have issues with the EU, but overall it is a good place to be.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2016 01:36PM

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It granted all citizens of the UK EU citizenship. If those citizens of the UK democratically decide to renounce their EU citizenship, then they all lose it. In or out is not on an individual basis.

Did Billy go to the Boyne so that the Chuckle Brothers would chuckle?

Connolly would not have been against progress and the nation making a sovereign decision to do something. Try again.

UK Votes to leave EU

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