M50 madness , Outer Ring needed

Trebor176 · 08-10-2016 8:40pm

Southbound, it can take up to an hour to get from near the M1 to Tallaght or a bit beyond most mornings, according to traffic reports. Northbound, it can be chronic from Ballymount to Lucan or Blanchardstown.

I go from junction 9 (Red Cow) and junction 10 (Ballymount) in the mornings and visa versa in the evenings. Some mornings, as recently as during the week just gone, it can take a half-hour to do this. A journey which takes me less than 10 minutes from home to work in little traffic.

There have been no reasons for these delays, where J9 traffic has joined from the southbound on ramp there to the J10 off ramp. Just volume really! The Ballymount southbound exit is a joke, in my opinion, as it's the only slip road that seems to be bad every morning, apart from the occasional delays around J13 or J14.

Since the economy is continuing to pick up, more jobs are being created, thus leading to more traffic. The M50 cannot cope with the traffic, in my view. But, I can't really see what can be done to sort the problem. A ring road would make sense. But, any 'improvements' will be a very long way off, I'm afraid.

snickerpuss · 09-10-2016 6:42pm

maninasia wrote: »

There's no one single answer, more PT, double the ringroad, electrify the trains, change the planning laws for higher density, encourage telework and other hubs than Dublin. It needs a concerted effort.

What difference would electrifying the Maynooth line make? Surely they wouldn't be any faster, the gates wouldn't stay down any quicker... so why would this have an effect on traffic?

The J Stands for Jay · 10-10-2016 7:07am

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Driver behaviour at junctions is also an issue, if we can't have a second level, then a system that forces drivers in the right most 2 lanes to remain on the Motorway for a mile before and after the major junctions would be an alternative, if you want to leave at a junction, then you get into the left well before, and can't get to the right until well after the junction.
Irish Steve, that's an interesting idea. so there would be a line of bollards or some such to keep traffic in the left lane? Are you aware of any motorways where this system is used?

The Long Island Expressway had something like this, but it was only for high occupancy vehicles - cars with at least two people. You couldnt leave the HOV lane at every junction, but it was clearly signposted in advance.

Side Gate · 10-10-2016 7:13am

It's only going to get worse OP. Maybe consider buying a motorbike would cut that journey time in half at least.

Diemos · 10-10-2016 8:04am

NiallBoo wrote: »

I think the primary question should be why we don't build appropriate higher density homes that would allow you to live near work instead of commuting from Athlone...but hey.

Because every Irish person deserves there 3 bed house with a garden. We've had these high density thingys in Ballymun and look how that turned out.

*I'm not saying I agree with the above but that's your primary reason.

L1011 · 10-10-2016 8:17am

snickerpuss wrote: »

What difference would electrifying the Maynooth line make? Surely they wouldn't be any faster, the gates wouldn't stay down any quicker... so why would this have an effect on traffic?

Acceleration is much better on electric trains so there would be speed improvements

magicbastarder · 10-10-2016 9:36am

is there any significant cost difference in the rolling stock?
and in running costs.

maninasia · 10-10-2016 10:08am

I've heard electric powered trains have better acceleration too. Possibly more reliable maintenance wise also. Lower emissions and quieter. Country where I'm based has electrified almost the entire tracks round the nation so there must be good reasons for it!

NiallBoo · 10-10-2016 10:11am

Diemos wrote: »

Because every Irish person deserves there 3 bed house with a garden. We've had these high density thingys in Ballymun and look how that turned out.

*I'm not saying I agree with the above but that's your primary reason.

Yup, I agree that's the thinking behind why we get the kind of development we do.

We've never really built apartments that are suitable for families. Doing so would be considered a "risk" to developers because it's so different that they wouldn't be sure there's a market for it.

Ballymum was always going to fail - poor design, a lack of services provided in the area and generally no attempt at looking at the social aspect. Ballyfermott had the same problems, but nobody blamed the architecture.

I think it's an "if you build it they will come" situation, but I don't expect to see it any time soon.

TheRiverman · 10-10-2016 11:08am

I live in rural Ireland twenty minutes drive from the M6 Motorway and everyday I see some bad driving,but by far the scariest place I have ever driven is on the M50.The amount of non compliance with the Rules Of the Road I have seen on the few occasions I have to drive on it each year is horrendous and is a big contributor to the hell that it is each day.

BoatMad · 10-10-2016 11:53am

Trebor176 wrote: »

Southbound, it can take up to an hour to get from near the M1 to Tallaght or a bit beyond most mornings, according to traffic reports. Northbound, it can be chronic from Ballymount to Lucan or Blanchardstown.

I go from junction 9 (Red Cow) and junction 10 (Ballymount) in the mornings and visa versa in the evenings. Some mornings, as recently as during the week just gone, it can take a half-hour to do this. A journey which takes me less than 10 minutes from home to work in little traffic.

There have been no reasons for these delays, where J9 traffic has joined from the southbound on ramp there to the J10 off ramp. Just volume really! The Ballymount southbound exit is a joke, in my opinion, as it's the only slip road that seems to be bad every morning, apart from the occasional delays around J13 or J14.

Since the economy is continuing to pick up, more jobs are being created, thus leading to more traffic. The M50 cannot cope with the traffic, in my view. But, I can't really see what can be done to sort the problem. A ring road would make sense. But, any 'improvements' will be a very long way off, I'm afraid.

A significant improvement would be to merge Taillight Firhouse and Ballymount into one exit and provide feeder roads to handle the motorway access closure, There are simply way to many junctions on top of one another in that section of roadway

monument · 10-10-2016 6:48pm

NiallBoo wrote: »

Yup, I agree that's the thinking behind why we get the kind of development we do.

We've never really built apartments that are suitable for families. Doing so would be considered a "risk" to developers because it's so different that they wouldn't be sure there's a market for it.

Ballymum was always going to fail - poor design, a lack of services provided in the area and generally no attempt at looking at the social aspect. Ballyfermott had the same problems, but nobody blamed the architecture.

I think it's an "if you build it they will come" situation, but I don't expect to see it any time soon.

The Ballymun towers turned out to be not so high density -- high rise does not equal high density.

All of the following three examples have just 74 units:

ubtf.jpg?resize=640%2C470

marno21 · 10-10-2016 6:52pm

TheRiverman wrote: »

I live in rural Ireland twenty minutes drive from the M6 Motorway and everyday I see some bad driving,but by far the scariest place I have ever driven is on the M50.The amount of non compliance with the Rules Of the Road I have seen on the few occasions I have to drive on it each year is horrendous and is a big contributor to the hell that it is each day.

It's ok. The speed vans will sort all that out

bk · 10-10-2016 7:30pm

NiallBoo wrote: »

We've never really built apartments that are suitable for families. Doing so would be considered a "risk" to developers because it's so different that they wouldn't be sure there's a market for it.

Almost accidentally my apartment building is highly suited to families. As a result over half the apartments have families with kids, demand for these apartments is very high and rents and selling prices are significantly higher then other, more "traditional" apartments in the area.

Shows there is massive untapped potential for more European style family friendly apartments.

NiallBoo · 10-10-2016 7:36pm

monument wrote: »

The Ballymun towers turned out to be not so high density -- high rise does not equal high density.

I take your point, but it's not really what I was on about. I was saying that all of the bad rep that non semi-D developments have is because of things that have little to do with the actual building form.

Nice figure though - i certainly think there should be more of the right-hand type, but I also think that tower type buildings allow for much more room for community space, services and future development.

Both the first and third pictures have their merits in cities.

BoatMad · 11-10-2016 11:11am

Originally Posted by TheRiverman View Post
I live in rural Ireland twenty minutes drive from the M6 Motorway and everyday I see some bad driving,but by far the scariest place I have ever driven is on the M50.The amount of non compliance with the Rules Of the Road I have seen on the few occasions I have to drive on it each year is horrendous and is a big contributor to the hell that it is each day.

Never been on the M50 where there was enough speed to cause any sort of serious accidents !!!. most are simply fender benders , on the rural motorways , when there is a crash , its usually at very high speeds

Driving the M50 regularly ( I also like in rural Ireland ) , I dont see too many infractions of the rules of the road, mainly illegal left lane passing, which is understandable the way Irish people use the outside lane.

The major failings on the M50 are that there are too many junctions in a very short space

NiallBoo · 11-10-2016 11:37am

BoatMad wrote: »

The major failings on the M50 are that there are too many junctions in a very short space

You keep saying that, but that's just not how that works.

BoatMad · 11-10-2016 11:43am

NiallBoo wrote: »

You keep saying that, but that's just not how that works.

you can see the effect at the firhouse to naas road section every day , too many exits too close together with onramps merging with off ramps and people skipping queues by using the outside lanes and then slowing and trying to merge, creates the classic accordion tailback

AT the very least the off ramps should be segregated over a greater length to prevent q-jumping

NiallBoo · 11-10-2016 11:51am

BoatMad wrote: »

you can see the effect at the firhouse to naas road section every day , too many exits too close together with onramps merging with off ramps and people skipping queues by using the outside lanes and then slowing and trying to merge, creates the classic accordion tailback

AT the very least the off ramps should be segregated over a greater length to prevent q-jumping

You see, you've got all this backwards. The problems you're describing are that there's too much competition for a very limited amount of space - in particular, capacity on the roads that lead away from the m-50, which are then causing traffic back up onto the m-50.
Thus giving incentive to act like eejits.

I honestly don't see how you think getting rid of junctions will help this. By merging three junctions into one you force people into even less space and will make that 3x worse, probably more in fact as the negative effects of these things tend to accumulate.

SeanW · 11-10-2016 12:23pm

dfeo wrote: »

Poorly designed? I completely agree.

Not enough lanes? I disagree. There are plenty of lanes. People just need to learn to keep left unless overtaking.

We need these on gantry signs in Ireland instead of the usual "slow down, speed kills" cráp.

Yes, but we would also need road infrastructure that stopped punishing people for cruising in the left lane and rewarding them for driving in the middle lane.

I'm talking about junctions where the dual carriageway loses a lane, so the driving lane becomes an exit lane, encouraging you to be out of the driving lane as far back as possible. N4 -> M4 outbound at Lucan/Leixlip I'm looking at you :mad: ditto for some of the routes through the junction at the M1/M50: two lanes merge into one and the driving lane must yield to the overtaking lane. Fixing crap like that would actually encourage people not to be MLMs (Middle Lane Morons).

magicbastarder · 11-10-2016 1:16pm

what is the average length of journey cars take on the M50?

BoatMad · 11-10-2016 2:30pm

NiallBoo wrote: »

You see, you've got all this backwards. The problems you're describing are that there's too much competition for a very limited amount of space - in particular, capacity on the roads that lead away from the m-50, which are then causing traffic back up onto the m-50.
Thus giving incentive to act like eejits.

I honestly don't see how you think getting rid of junctions will help this. By merging three junctions into one you force people into even less space and will make that 3x worse, probably more in fact as the negative effects of these things tend to accumulate.

Th issue is not the capacity of the junctions to remove the exit traffic , the issue is that the engineering of those three accesses, being so close as to have insufficient exit and on -ramps, is causing major slow downs

combining all three and providing greatly enlarged on and off ramps , would ameliorate the problem in my opinion , the off ramps could be the size of the M4 lead in, a junction that is equally congested , but such congestion has far less effect onthe other lanes of the M50

plodder · 11-10-2016 3:25pm

BoatMad wrote: »

A significant improvement would be to merge Taillight Firhouse and Ballymount into one exit and provide feeder roads to handle the motorway access closure, There are simply way to many junctions on top of one another in that section of roadway

Junctions too close together causes a different problem, namely, people using the motorway for local journeys that should be taken on local roads instead.

The other big problem imo is when the M50 becomes congested the traditional advice of using the right most lanes only for overtaking, breaks down. Basically everyone entering the motorway piles into the right most lane because they want to go faster than everyone else, but they don't realise everyone else wants to do the same thing. So, they get frustrated.

The answer imo is reduced (variable) speed limits, enforced by camera, when it gets congested. If all lanes are moving at the same speed, then there's no incentive to all pile into the rightmost lanes. Consistent lower speed means you can fit more traffic into the same space, with higher throughput, and lower average journey times.

Idbatterim · 12-10-2016 10:11pm

has a tunnel under dublin bay ever been costed/examined for feasibility?

yes going back 40 years... has been mentioned in the papers recently enough too... I would have this over any of the other options any day, road wise, i.e instead of double decking current m50 or outer bypass...

of course MN and DU are urgently needed, sorry, they were urgently needed 10 years ago!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/dublin-continues-to-wrestle-with-issue-of-an-eastern-bypass-for-the-city-1.2674399

Idbatterim · 12-10-2016 10:15pm

Also I dont understand why Tallaght junction isnt freeflow. Why the R108 junction is a signal controlled roundabout, simply cut down vegetation and take down barriers on it, so you have a good view...

marno21 · 12-10-2016 10:28pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

yes going back 40 years... has been mentioned in the papers recently enough too... I would have this over any of the other options any day, road wise, i.e instead of double decking current m50 or outer bypass...

of course MN and DU are urgently needed, sorry, they were urgently needed 10 years ago!!!

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/dublin-continues-to-wrestle-with-issue-of-an-eastern-bypass-for-the-city-1.2674399

Completing the C ring is a much better idea than an outer orbital. The volume of traffic on the M50 at peak times going that would potentially use this road is negligible.

Dardania · 12-10-2016 10:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

has a tunnel under dublin bay ever been costed/examined for feasibility?

If you're getting at the idea of completing it as a proper ring, I think that's a good idea. In theory you should be able to double the capacity the road can handle (in practice not really, but would take people connecting from M1/M2 to M11 and perhaps as far as Sandyford via an alternate route

patrickbrophy18 · 12-10-2016 11:38pm

To re-iterate a point that I made a few times. The "M50 madness" is a by-product of a largely disjointed and inefficient public transport system. To begin with, there are the massive population centers such as Blanchardstown and Tallaght to name but a few located within a 2 to 3 mile radius of the M50 not to mention an abundance of town centers, industrial estates and business parks. Essentially, this has created a paradigm shift away from the more traditional traffic flow into and out of Dublin City.

As a result, there is a huge business case for an orbital public transport system be it a DART line, light rail line or bus rapid transit system. In a time of climate change and where we are actively discouraging car use, I fear that the provision of another (outer) orbital motorway system will in time, jack up car usage to double the current levels.

Cycle lanes and cycle tracks would also need to be provided along these public transport systems as well as not everyone would be doing over 10 miles. Perhaps, a grid or mesh of cycle lanes could be provided for maximum permeability and coverage.

At least once a week I am seeing tailbacks a few miles long to Sandyford and Ballinteer alone. If this is not indicative of a paradigm shift, I don't know what is. We need to take a birds eye view of the entire Greater Dublin Area and take a holistic approach to how people plan an getting around it efficiently by public transport.

At the moment, public transport modes such as the bus and to a lesser extent, the Luas take very indirect approaches to get from A to B with the former operating into housing estates. Next, there is the disproportionate level of service on all bus routes from skeleton routes (less than 4 journeys per direction) to high frequency ones (10 minutely or greater). Some of the orbital bus routes I've seen such as the 114 and 17 are nowhere near frequent or direct enough to encourage current or would-be drivers from using them. Understandably, many of these would end up choosing the car where they would likely end up on the M50 to some degree.

Bottom line, any money invested in an "Outer Ring" could be better spent on an orbital public transport system with a similar purpose. It would be better for the environment and more important, it would be sustainable.

Idbatterim · 13-10-2016 8:14am

How about multi point tolling? To keep local traffic off it and abolish the current west link toll. Say a euro or 1.5 between first junction, fifty cent for the next, twenty five cent every consecutive one? Maybe only do that at peak hours though. I am still advocating an eastern bypass...

GreenFolder2 · 14-10-2016 12:48pm

Well when you scatter an "urban" population as thinly as possible and then try to push them all into the city every day on a few lanes of tarmac this kind of thing happens.

If Dublin had more, properly designed higher density housing options and proper public transport it would actually function.

The road network will always be a problem if we keep failing to do anything about planning housing.

This is a political issue and clearly people support the status quo as any suggestion of high-rise or high density causes minor outrage. So clearly unsustainable is popular.

M50 madness , Outer Ring needed

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