M50 madness , Outer Ring needed

supermilk1

Maybe I just can't find the thread, surely one exists and there are thousands of people on boards who have the same issue as me and are at breaking point with ..The dreaded M50.
The supposed main artery of this country which is blocked everyday by the smallest of incidents. If it's not a breakdown, it's a collision, if its not collision it's 5mm rain, if it's not rain it's low lying sun , school kids back etc, etc.
It's simply not able to cope. Poorly designed, not enough lanes where there's slip and ramps. Bottle necks in the same places every day and no room to widen as all bridges would have to be upgraded.

My commute from Athlone to Sandyford everyday is a nightmare because of this road.

Anyway, rant over.

My point of this thread is to find out if there will ever be and outer ring road. Surely the politicians and councils see this is required.
It is impossible to put a figure of lost productivity by the the thousands of commuters sitting in a tailback on a daily basis and with Dublin getting busier everyday ,surely it is in their plans?????

Would love to hear something positive from someone in the know.

From a disgruntled commuter,

Supermilk1

Carawaystick

I'm not sure how a road south of the Wicklow mountains would help your case? There's no room north of the mountains.

ThisRegard

There's already plans for one, if it will ever happen is another story. But you'll still have to contend with the M50 as it was suggested to take in Navan and Naas.

There's nowhere else to put it within Dublin itself, and your commute from Athlone exasperates your problem.

techdiver

Unfortunately we don't live in a country where we forward plan. Roads and infrastructure are built to cater for the needs as they currently exists as opposed to looking at future growth and requirements. This is mainly due to the political culture in this country whereby they will get criticised for building something that is "not needed" or "underutilised" (remember when the Luas was built?).

This leads to a fear to plan ahead due to the threat of losing a seat for "wasting taxpayers money".

Odelay

In fairness, I don't think the M50 was built was built to allow people commute daily from Athlone to Sanyyford.

trellheim

It was built as a parkway originally IIRC.

But OP raises an issue - I see no simple map for serious capacity increases from Firhouse to Sandyford , as said above there just simply is not room unless we doubledeck the M50 !

Perhaps tolling to take the sting off the rise but the whinging from the userbase will mean only a strong Transport minister will take this course

One answer might be screens on the median to avoid rubberneckers

Not sure though Athlone to Sandyford is a journey the NTA are thinking about prioritizing though

techdiver

trellheim wrote: »

It was built as a parkway originally IIRC.

But OP raises an issue - I see no simple map for serious capacity increases from Firhouse to Sandyford , as said above there just simply is not room unless we doubledeck the M50 !

Perhaps tolling to take the sting off the rise but the whinging from the userbase will mean only a strong Transport minister will take this course

One answer might be screens on the median to avoid rubberneckers

Not sure though Athlone to Sandyford is a journey the NTA are thinking about prioritizing though

Well successive governments has ensured that housing is not affordable even for professionals in well paying jobs, so the only choice for many of us was to move out of Dublin and commute as there is no other choice.

trellheim

Well successive governments has ensured that housing is not affordable even for professionals in well paying jobs, so the only choice for many of us was to move out of Dublin and commute as there is no other choice.

I accept that but my point was that the NTA wouldn't be thinking about it.

savagethegoat

a link from the M7/8/9 to north of the airport might remove enough traffic from t he M50 to make it tolerable perhaps

supermilk1

Kind of going of the point here. There will always be commuters folks for many different reasons. If I own a house in the midlands and take a 24 month contract in Sandyford do I sell my house, move to Dublin for 2 years and then move back again???
Also, someone living in Maynooth/Leixlip/Lucan has the same issue travelling southbound as someone travelling from Athlone. Are they classed as commuters if they drive on the M50? If it wasn't built for people travelling to work on a daily basis what was it built for?the school run?
The point is this is the most important road in Ireland and it is not able to cope.
Imagine 5 years time...

kona

We need to look at the planning of the country. A lot of business and services should be moved out into the country.
It would adress a he'll of a lot of issues in the country.

schemingbohemia

Ok, so we build this at a cost of probably a billion euro, then as with every road in the history of roads, it becomes congested too, what do we do then? Another ring road outside that?
Sure let's just concrete over the whole country.

Macstuff

I use the M50 everyday to travel from North County Dublin to Dundrum and it's really gotten bad in the last few months. I typically leave my house at either 6:20 or 6:40 and am on the M50 10 minutes later. I have been doing that for the last 3 years. However, in the recent past I find myself getting caught in tailbacks even at that time. Currently my journey time is about 50 mins - without any traffic, late at night for example it would take 35 mins.
Like most M50 users I don't believe I have any real alternative. Using public transport for the same journey would involve a 2 hour trip each way and would cost at least as much. I broke it down below in case you don't believe me.
Journey using public transport
1) A 5 minute drive to my train station. Paying €3 for parking
2) A 5 minute wait then a 45 minute train ride to the city centre.
3) A 20 minute walk to St. Stephens Green
4) A 5 minute wait for the Luas
5) A 25 minute (approx.) Luas journey
6) A 5 minute walk to the office for the same

There have been some discussions about increasing the toll and tolling it at all exits/entry points - rather than just in a single location. That might have some effect. However I am not sure that that will happen as for most users (like me) there are few alternatives. I could see a lot of backlash from commuters if this was imposed.
Overall I have no idea what the answer is. It's probably better, faster public transport but that costs money and takes too much time for a single govt. to invest in it.

porsche boy

kona wrote:

We need to look at the planning of the country. A lot of business and services should be moved out into the country. It would adress a he'll of a lot of issues in the country.

Are you suggesting some sort of decentralisation???

porsche boy

In reality what we need is for motorway driving to be part of the learning & testing for drivers. More often that not drivers do no know which lane to be in and can cause havoc trying to get over to slip roads. Mythbusters done an experiment where they had a Constand flow of traffic and had one car jam on the brake for a second and then drive on. The effect it had on the remaining traffic was amazing. One car doing that can cause a tailback for miles.
Another suggestion I would have is for drivers to have polorized sunglasses with them, the benefits when driving with low lying sun or on wet roads with the sun shining has to be seen to be believed.

intheclouds

trellheim wrote: »

.....as said above there just simply is not room unless we doubledeck the M50 !

This is exactly what they should do. Build another M50 on top of the existing M50. Get rid of the meridian strip and have the lower deck northbound and the upper deck southbound. Immediately more than double the current capacity. Would also solve the low sun issue on the bottom deck. There are engineering issues around bridges (go over them? under them?) and slip roads on and off for the upper deck but these are smaller individual issues than that of a whole new ring road.

I too am sick of the constant problems in the same places on it daily and the terrible design of some parts of it.

supermilk1

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Ok, so we build this at a cost of probably a billion euro, then as with every road in the history of roads, it becomes congested too, what do we do then? Another ring road outside that?
Sure let's just concrete over the whole country.

You sound like you enjoy sitting in traffic...Who said anything about concreting the country? 1 outer road would undoubtedly alleviate traffic congestion from the M50 and adjoining roads.

Well what is costing the economy in lost productivity having thousands late for work every day??
A billion euro would be well spent . Employment generated, local suppliers also benefitting. And if it costs a billion quid now , what will it cost in 10 years when it will actually be too late. Dublin won't stop growing so

JaMarcusHustle

porsche boy wrote:

In reality what we need is for motorway driving to be part of the learning & testing for drivers.

Unfortunately that's a bit naive. There's plenty of elements to driving that ARE in the test yet people continue to make a balls of. See roundabouts, indicating, positioning etc.

magicbastarder

the issue is not with the M50 itself, but with the fact that public transport in dublin needs a hell of a lot of work, and that we should not have to build roads with 260km return commutes in mind.

supermilk1

magicbastarder wrote: »

the issue is not with the M50 itself, but with the fact that public transport in dublin needs a hell of a lot of work, and that we should not have to build roads with 260km return commutes in mind.

Yes, but if driving 220km of the 260km commute is taking less time to travel then the other 40km on the M50 alone don't you think that there is something not quite right about that???

trellheim

Yes, but if driving 220km of the 260km commute is taking less time to travel then the other 40km on the M50 alone don't you think that there is something not quite right about that???

OP is driving into the busiest bit of it , so yes, sounds about right. Face it folks theres no budget for massive cap-ex to fix this , we're only going to see sticking plaster like the NAAS/M7/M9 tripling .

After that probably M20's time has come if we're talking about road building thats needed

pajero12

Odelay wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think the M50 was built was built to allow people commute daily from Athlone to Sanyyford.

What a ridiculous point to make, I commute from Clondakin to Sandyford and I'm affected by the issues mentioned above :rolleyes:

kirving

It's not even about the money, it's the complete and utter lack of imagination when it comes to infrastructure.

I would genuinely love to see statistics on how many of our TD's have visited London for example.

Infini

magicbastarder wrote: »

the issue is not with the M50 itself, but with the fact that public transport in dublin needs a hell of a lot of work, and that we should not have to build roads with 260km return commutes in mind.

I'd agree with this tbh. Rail and Tram lines aren't getting anywhere near the investment they should be getting in Dublin which would take a hell of a lot of pressure off the roads. Triple/quad tracking connolly-clongriffin, Dart Underground, dart spur to the airport and maybe swords, expansion of the m3 line to navan, are things that should have been done as well as more expansions of the luas into north dublin and more spread into the south. Only thing I would rather see different is an actual dart line instead of metro north as its somewhat of a glorified luas as currently proposed and I dont know if its up to capacity not to mention the lack of sense in building another segregated rail network.

supermilk1

trellheim wrote: »

OP is driving into the busiest bit of it , so yes, sounds about right. Face it folks theres no budget for massive cap-ex to fix this , we're only going to see sticking plaster like the NAAS/M7/M9 tripling .

After that probably M20's time has come if we're talking about road building thats needed

Fair enough,but it's not like Sandyford is the city centre. It's an industrial hub which is nearly 12km from the centre.

Folks don't get me wrong I would prefer to have an option to commute by train but it's simply not a practical option.

whippet

I have been commuting on the M50 for 15 years now and it is worse than I ever recall now southbound in the morning .. even before the upgrade and toll-free.

Most mornings now it take approx 45-60 mins from Ballymun to clear blanch ...

I don't know the answer, I don't have any real solutions but all I know is that the company I work for based in Ballymount now is loosing staff and finding it very difficult to recruit due to the painful commute. Quite a few have joined and left within a month due to the traffic.

Unfortunately the transport strategy around dublin is full focused on giving more real estate to cyclists rather than the obvious - create cycle ways (no just steal from the already depleted roads) and a proper orbital public transport network.

To get public transport to anywhere in the commercial zones around the M50 almost always requires a journey in to the city centre and then a journey back out to the orbital road in already congested traffic.

For instance, I come in the M1 in the morning .. so if I wanted to take public transport to ballymount i'd have to get a train / bus in to the city centre and then bus to ballymount . .probably a 2hour journey.

Alun

supermilk1 wrote: »

Fair enough,but it's not like Sandyford is the city centre. It's an industrial hub which is nearly 12km from the centre.

I'm struggling though to imagine the route of such a hypothetical outer ring road that would help your particular situation in any meaningful way. There's no major route from the south that connects with the Sandyford junction that such a road could connect with, and the terrain to the south of there (foothills of Dublin Mts.) is not really suitable.

magicbastarder

whippet wrote: »

I have been commuting on the M50 for 15 years now and it is worse than I ever recall now southbound in the morning .. even before the upgrade and toll-free.

the M50 is operating at nearly twice its nominal capacity.

kona

porsche boy wrote: »

Are you suggesting some sort of decentralisation???

Suggesting a bit a cop on. The current model is absolutely horrendous.
It's not fair on people having to either commute large distances or buy / rent in Dublin.

Get some investment in towns and cities around the country and maybe save some from extinction.

magicbastarder

kona wrote: »

Get some investment in towns and cities around the country and maybe save some from extinction.

a bit OT but a clamp down on one off housing which is essentially decentralising those rural towns would be interesting.

Caliden

No need for more roads as cars will simply fill them to capacity again. Increase public transport options with orbital bus routes.

I live in D14 and I've got a lot of options when it comes to getting into the city centre.

All well and good if I work in town but I work in Citywest so my option is either a 20-30 minute drive or 90 minutes of public transport with 3 transfers.

whippet

i'm commuting by choice .. prefer the rural living and the commute wasn't an issue until the last 18 months or so.

At this stage i'm considering working locally and probably dropping my salary by 50% just to keep out of the dublin rat race.

trellheim

I live in D14 and I've got a lot of options when it comes to getting into the city centre.

All well and good if I work in town but I work in Citywest so my option is either a 20-30 minute drive or 90 minutes of public transport with 3 transfers.

or 25 min cycle to LUAS RED/ Kylemore + 20 mins LUAS

magicbastarder

whippet wrote: »

i'm commuting by choice .. prefer the rural living and the commute wasn't an issue until the last 18 months or so.

At this stage i'm considering working locally and probably dropping my salary by 50% just to keep out of the dublin rat race.

a lot of my opinion on this topic is informed by people who have deliberately moved out to places where public transport is not an option, and then complained about traffic volumes - at least you are taking a more sensible approach.

e.g. i work in dublin 18, and i've a colleague who moved from clondalkin to a place about 5 miles from gorey, who complains about his commute. he gets short shrift from us.

Jaggo

trellheim wrote: »

OP is driving into the busiest bit of it , so yes, sounds about right. Face it folks theres no budget for massive cap-ex to fix this , we're only going to see sticking plaster like the NAAS/M7/M9 tripling .

After that probably M20's time has come if we're talking about road building thats needed

The NAAS/M7/M9 tripling is part of the problem. The M50 was designed as an orbital to relieve traffic in Dublin. Since then the State build 7 motorways, with little economic value, leading on to the M50 and none leading off (not counting the port tunnel). What did anyone expect to happen?

When the plans for the M2 were designed. The politicians considered the cost of dumping an extra c15,000 cars onto the most congested (and most valuable) road in the country and balanced it up against the potential of extra votes on the M2 corridor - the commuters lost.

NiallBoo

I think the primary question should be why we don't build appropriate higher density homes that would allow you to live near work instead of commuting from Athlone...but hey.

I think the biggest issue with the m50 is actually getting on and off it.

The problem is that the roads draining the m50 have such low capacity that you get back-logs onto the m50. This doesn't sound like much but slowing at junctions leads to an ever increasing slow-down further back, until it's eventually a crawl.

An outer orbital route wouldn't really help anything because you would still have the same pinch-points.

You'd just have more room to park.

What would help?
1. Orbital rail routes - having everything go through the city centre clearly doesn't fit with current need. OP, if there was a rail route following the m50, how long would your rail commute be?

2. Improved feeder roads - Working to make the spokes better to relieve pressure on the rim.

3. Variable speed limits for peek times..counter-intuitive and a long explanation...

NiallBoo

Jaggo wrote: »

The NAAS/M7/M9 tripling is part of the problem.

yes and no.
It should make morning traffic worse by dumping people onto the m50 quicker but evening traffic better by getting them off it faster.

Having some flow-control on inbound traffic could help this( e.g. Having variable speed-limits or traffic lights in the mornings)

magicbastarder

my fantasy upgrade to the M50 - a cycle lane alongside. you'd have to have some fancy engineering at the junctions, and especially with the west link, but it'd give cyclists the ability to pelt along for several kilometres at a time without having to worry about interacting with traffic.

i know two people living in dublin 15 and working in parkwest. such a cycle lane would cut journey times drastically for them, if compared to the public transport option.

whippet

magicbastarder wrote: »

a lot of my opinion on this topic is informed by people who have deliberately moved out to places where public transport is not an option, and then complained about traffic volumes - at least you are taking a more sensible approach.

e.g. i work in dublin 18, and i've a colleague who moved from clondalkin to a place about 5 miles from gorey, who complains about his commute. he gets short shrift from us.

I have no issue with the 25 mins it takes me to get to the M50 ... its the 60mins plus to get across a couple of miles of it I have an issue with .. and with Zero public transport alternatives ... if I lived in swords i'd have the same problem with public transport .. bus in to town and bus out .. circa 90mins sitting in congested roads.

The M50 is lined with industry with no orbital public transport .... this leads to congestion on the M50 and in the city centre

Tiddlypeeps

The M50 isn't the issue, it's a symptom of bad city planning. Dublin is a very short, sprawling city. That means there isn't enough residential options within the bounds of the M50 for a lot of people who would otherwise choose that option. The more people forced to move outside the bounds of the M50 because of lack of housing in the city, who have to commute into the city daily, puts more pressure on the M50.

The government need to encouraging more residential development in the city, this would likely mean removing, or at least changing the stupid height restrictions, and doing whatever they can to actively encourage developers to build up instead of out. If removing the restriction alone isn't enough then some tax incentives would probably do it, might not even be needed tho. This would help address both the housing crisis and the M50 congestion.

Improvements to public transport would probably help too, but that's also just a bandaid for the symptom, and not a solution to the actual problem causing it.

micosoft

It's almost as if the M50 is the only congested route in the world.

The M50 is no worse than the type of congestion you see in LA, Seattle or any large US city where people live like Irish People.

Irish People choose to live in low density housing making a Public Transport such as London or most European cities completely untenable. It's not a case of underinvestment, it's a case of having a population too spread out to make it cost effective.

When people stop thinking they a right to house with front and back garden the above may change. But until then the blame is largely with the electorate who don't want a built environment that would support an effective public transport system alleviating the likes of the M50.

Carawaystick

micosoft wrote: »

When people stop thinking they a right to house with front and back garden the above may change. But until then the blame is largely with the electorate who don't want a built environment that would support an effective public transport system alleviating the likes of the M50.

Monument has previously pointed out that Dublin city has a population density greater than Amsterdam. Density is not the reason the PT is crap; its the underinvestment in pt and infrastructure.


An example is given above of the trek by pt to Parkwest from D15, when a PT/cycle/ped route from Liffey Valley to Porterstown road would provide huge connectivity.

Tazium

trellheim wrote: »

But OP raises an issue - I see no simple map for serious capacity increases from Firhouse to Sandyford , as said above there just simply is not room unless we doubledeck the M50 !

That's a great idea actually and potentially feasible too.

magicbastarder

two things - it would undoubtedly reduce capacity on the M50 for several years during construction, worsening the problem it's designed to fix, and also the spectacular cost would be more constructively spent on other infrastructure.

Tazium

I hear ya, but in the absence of any other possible route or less expensive option it's got merit.

porsche boy

I wouldn't call it naive, however not having any motorway driving or explanation of the different lanes explained to them means there is no preparation for a novice driver to go from regional roads to motorways. Regardless of what people are thought and decide not to practice, not being thought in the first place is a major problem.
Akin to learning to fly in a Sessna single prop and ending up flying a Boeing. (Bigger, faster, more stuff going on, potential of bigger accidents etc)

dixiefly

supermilk1 wrote: »

Maybe I just can't find the thread, surely one exists and there are thousands of people on boards who have the same issue as me and are at breaking point with ..The dreaded M50.
The supposed main artery of this country which is blocked everyday by the smallest of incidents. If it's not a breakdown, it's a collision, if its not collision it's 5mm rain, if it's not rain it's low lying sun , school kids back etc, etc.
It's simply not able to cope. Poorly designed, not enough lanes where there's slip and ramps. Bottle necks in the same places every day and no room to widen as all bridges would have to be upgraded.

My commute from Athlone to Sandyford everyday is a nightmare because of this road.

Anyway, rant over.

My point of this thread is to find out if there will ever be and outer ring road. Surely the politicians and councils see this is required.
It is impossible to put a figure of lost productivity by the the thousands of commuters sitting in a tailback on a daily basis and with Dublin getting busier everyday ,surely it is in their plans?????

Would love to hear something positive from someone in the know.

From a disgruntled commuter,

Supermilk1

In answer to your first question, there is a thread and its this one:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057511865


I rarely get involved in the commuting debates here because I believe others on here have way more knowledge than I do. I really believe that we have been woefully served by politicians and planners over te last 50 years who have taken a short term view on the transport needs of Dublin.

I commute on the M3 most days but manage to leave early enough & take back roads to avoid the really bad stuff most days. However I would change to the train in from Dunboyne in if the journey time could be reduced. I may well changeover when the Luas cross city is completed, I'll certainly try it out.

In the case of the M3 I am (and always was ) of the opinion that the M3 upgrade / new motorway should only have been brought as far as Dunshaughlin and then followed up with substantial bypasses of navan, Kells, Virginia and Cavan town. That along with the extension of the train line from Dunboyne to Dunshaughlin and Navan with feeder buses from Kells to Navan and from Trim to Dunshaughlin and free parking at both stops.

Incremental changes should be made where possible to maximise the existing routes and this might alleviate the new increases in traffic. Perhaps if all of the existing rail lines could be upgraded to as high a speed as possible, tie in with Luas Cross City and offer free out of town parking then a number of cars on the M50 could be reduced.

After all it is the commuters that are paying the bulk of taxes in this country and these traffic issues will become a barrier to ongoing investment.

NiallBoo

^^^really I'd like to see all if of these things.

The lack of ambition and willingness to make long-term investments is embarrassing.

(Incidentally, Cavan was bypassed 15 years ago)

dixiefly

NiallBoo wrote: »

^^^really I'd like to see all if of these things.

The lack of ambition and willingness to make long-term investments is embarrassing.

(Incidentally, Cavan was bypassed 15 years ago)

Yeah you are right, I got a bit carried away.:)

I do wonder do the politicians have to sit in this traffic every day? Probably not.

If they did I am sure a lot more urgency would be applied to the question.

I have a question for others here. How much would you need to be paid to change from an ok job with a reasonable commute (45 - 55 mins) to a job which involves the trauma of the M50 where you need to be on the M50 by 6:30am but cannot leave early so working until 5:30 - 6:00pm with a 1 hr plus commute home and every so often disasters of a 2 hour delay?

I would say you would need at least a €30k increase to justify it which, at best would be €15k increase into the pocket with tax etc. Also probable increase in petrol or diesel costs.

nc6000

I'd love to know if the reflective strips and bits of rope left on the bridges after the M50 was widened are ever going to be removed.

rogue-entity

If we're fixing the M50, any chance we could also raise the speed limit to something decent like 130kph.