M50 madness , Outer Ring needed

whippet

i'm commuting by choice .. prefer the rural living and the commute wasn't an issue until the last 18 months or so.

At this stage i'm considering working locally and probably dropping my salary by 50% just to keep out of the dublin rat race.

trellheim

I live in D14 and I've got a lot of options when it comes to getting into the city centre.

All well and good if I work in town but I work in Citywest so my option is either a 20-30 minute drive or 90 minutes of public transport with 3 transfers.

or 25 min cycle to LUAS RED/ Kylemore + 20 mins LUAS

magicbastarder

whippet wrote: »

i'm commuting by choice .. prefer the rural living and the commute wasn't an issue until the last 18 months or so.

At this stage i'm considering working locally and probably dropping my salary by 50% just to keep out of the dublin rat race.

a lot of my opinion on this topic is informed by people who have deliberately moved out to places where public transport is not an option, and then complained about traffic volumes - at least you are taking a more sensible approach.

e.g. i work in dublin 18, and i've a colleague who moved from clondalkin to a place about 5 miles from gorey, who complains about his commute. he gets short shrift from us.

Jaggo

trellheim wrote: »

OP is driving into the busiest bit of it , so yes, sounds about right. Face it folks theres no budget for massive cap-ex to fix this , we're only going to see sticking plaster like the NAAS/M7/M9 tripling .

After that probably M20's time has come if we're talking about road building thats needed

The NAAS/M7/M9 tripling is part of the problem. The M50 was designed as an orbital to relieve traffic in Dublin. Since then the State build 7 motorways, with little economic value, leading on to the M50 and none leading off (not counting the port tunnel). What did anyone expect to happen?

When the plans for the M2 were designed. The politicians considered the cost of dumping an extra c15,000 cars onto the most congested (and most valuable) road in the country and balanced it up against the potential of extra votes on the M2 corridor - the commuters lost.

NiallBoo

I think the primary question should be why we don't build appropriate higher density homes that would allow you to live near work instead of commuting from Athlone...but hey.

I think the biggest issue with the m50 is actually getting on and off it.

The problem is that the roads draining the m50 have such low capacity that you get back-logs onto the m50. This doesn't sound like much but slowing at junctions leads to an ever increasing slow-down further back, until it's eventually a crawl.

An outer orbital route wouldn't really help anything because you would still have the same pinch-points.

You'd just have more room to park.

What would help?
1. Orbital rail routes - having everything go through the city centre clearly doesn't fit with current need. OP, if there was a rail route following the m50, how long would your rail commute be?

2. Improved feeder roads - Working to make the spokes better to relieve pressure on the rim.

3. Variable speed limits for peek times..counter-intuitive and a long explanation...

NiallBoo

Jaggo wrote: »

The NAAS/M7/M9 tripling is part of the problem.

yes and no.
It should make morning traffic worse by dumping people onto the m50 quicker but evening traffic better by getting them off it faster.

Having some flow-control on inbound traffic could help this( e.g. Having variable speed-limits or traffic lights in the mornings)

magicbastarder

my fantasy upgrade to the M50 - a cycle lane alongside. you'd have to have some fancy engineering at the junctions, and especially with the west link, but it'd give cyclists the ability to pelt along for several kilometres at a time without having to worry about interacting with traffic.

i know two people living in dublin 15 and working in parkwest. such a cycle lane would cut journey times drastically for them, if compared to the public transport option.

whippet

magicbastarder wrote: »

a lot of my opinion on this topic is informed by people who have deliberately moved out to places where public transport is not an option, and then complained about traffic volumes - at least you are taking a more sensible approach.

e.g. i work in dublin 18, and i've a colleague who moved from clondalkin to a place about 5 miles from gorey, who complains about his commute. he gets short shrift from us.

I have no issue with the 25 mins it takes me to get to the M50 ... its the 60mins plus to get across a couple of miles of it I have an issue with .. and with Zero public transport alternatives ... if I lived in swords i'd have the same problem with public transport .. bus in to town and bus out .. circa 90mins sitting in congested roads.

The M50 is lined with industry with no orbital public transport .... this leads to congestion on the M50 and in the city centre

Tiddlypeeps

The M50 isn't the issue, it's a symptom of bad city planning. Dublin is a very short, sprawling city. That means there isn't enough residential options within the bounds of the M50 for a lot of people who would otherwise choose that option. The more people forced to move outside the bounds of the M50 because of lack of housing in the city, who have to commute into the city daily, puts more pressure on the M50.

The government need to encouraging more residential development in the city, this would likely mean removing, or at least changing the stupid height restrictions, and doing whatever they can to actively encourage developers to build up instead of out. If removing the restriction alone isn't enough then some tax incentives would probably do it, might not even be needed tho. This would help address both the housing crisis and the M50 congestion.

Improvements to public transport would probably help too, but that's also just a bandaid for the symptom, and not a solution to the actual problem causing it.

micosoft

It's almost as if the M50 is the only congested route in the world.

The M50 is no worse than the type of congestion you see in LA, Seattle or any large US city where people live like Irish People.

Irish People choose to live in low density housing making a Public Transport such as London or most European cities completely untenable. It's not a case of underinvestment, it's a case of having a population too spread out to make it cost effective.

When people stop thinking they a right to house with front and back garden the above may change. But until then the blame is largely with the electorate who don't want a built environment that would support an effective public transport system alleviating the likes of the M50.

Carawaystick

micosoft wrote: »

When people stop thinking they a right to house with front and back garden the above may change. But until then the blame is largely with the electorate who don't want a built environment that would support an effective public transport system alleviating the likes of the M50.

Monument has previously pointed out that Dublin city has a population density greater than Amsterdam. Density is not the reason the PT is crap; its the underinvestment in pt and infrastructure.


An example is given above of the trek by pt to Parkwest from D15, when a PT/cycle/ped route from Liffey Valley to Porterstown road would provide huge connectivity.

Tazium

trellheim wrote: »

But OP raises an issue - I see no simple map for serious capacity increases from Firhouse to Sandyford , as said above there just simply is not room unless we doubledeck the M50 !

That's a great idea actually and potentially feasible too.

magicbastarder

two things - it would undoubtedly reduce capacity on the M50 for several years during construction, worsening the problem it's designed to fix, and also the spectacular cost would be more constructively spent on other infrastructure.

Tazium

I hear ya, but in the absence of any other possible route or less expensive option it's got merit.

porsche boy

I wouldn't call it naive, however not having any motorway driving or explanation of the different lanes explained to them means there is no preparation for a novice driver to go from regional roads to motorways. Regardless of what people are thought and decide not to practice, not being thought in the first place is a major problem.
Akin to learning to fly in a Sessna single prop and ending up flying a Boeing. (Bigger, faster, more stuff going on, potential of bigger accidents etc)

dixiefly

supermilk1 wrote: »

Maybe I just can't find the thread, surely one exists and there are thousands of people on boards who have the same issue as me and are at breaking point with ..The dreaded M50.
The supposed main artery of this country which is blocked everyday by the smallest of incidents. If it's not a breakdown, it's a collision, if its not collision it's 5mm rain, if it's not rain it's low lying sun , school kids back etc, etc.
It's simply not able to cope. Poorly designed, not enough lanes where there's slip and ramps. Bottle necks in the same places every day and no room to widen as all bridges would have to be upgraded.

My commute from Athlone to Sandyford everyday is a nightmare because of this road.

Anyway, rant over.

My point of this thread is to find out if there will ever be and outer ring road. Surely the politicians and councils see this is required.
It is impossible to put a figure of lost productivity by the the thousands of commuters sitting in a tailback on a daily basis and with Dublin getting busier everyday ,surely it is in their plans?????

Would love to hear something positive from someone in the know.

From a disgruntled commuter,

Supermilk1

In answer to your first question, there is a thread and its this one:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057511865


I rarely get involved in the commuting debates here because I believe others on here have way more knowledge than I do. I really believe that we have been woefully served by politicians and planners over te last 50 years who have taken a short term view on the transport needs of Dublin.

I commute on the M3 most days but manage to leave early enough & take back roads to avoid the really bad stuff most days. However I would change to the train in from Dunboyne in if the journey time could be reduced. I may well changeover when the Luas cross city is completed, I'll certainly try it out.

In the case of the M3 I am (and always was ) of the opinion that the M3 upgrade / new motorway should only have been brought as far as Dunshaughlin and then followed up with substantial bypasses of navan, Kells, Virginia and Cavan town. That along with the extension of the train line from Dunboyne to Dunshaughlin and Navan with feeder buses from Kells to Navan and from Trim to Dunshaughlin and free parking at both stops.

Incremental changes should be made where possible to maximise the existing routes and this might alleviate the new increases in traffic. Perhaps if all of the existing rail lines could be upgraded to as high a speed as possible, tie in with Luas Cross City and offer free out of town parking then a number of cars on the M50 could be reduced.

After all it is the commuters that are paying the bulk of taxes in this country and these traffic issues will become a barrier to ongoing investment.

NiallBoo

^^^really I'd like to see all if of these things.

The lack of ambition and willingness to make long-term investments is embarrassing.

(Incidentally, Cavan was bypassed 15 years ago)

dixiefly

NiallBoo wrote: »

^^^really I'd like to see all if of these things.

The lack of ambition and willingness to make long-term investments is embarrassing.

(Incidentally, Cavan was bypassed 15 years ago)

Yeah you are right, I got a bit carried away.:)

I do wonder do the politicians have to sit in this traffic every day? Probably not.

If they did I am sure a lot more urgency would be applied to the question.

I have a question for others here. How much would you need to be paid to change from an ok job with a reasonable commute (45 - 55 mins) to a job which involves the trauma of the M50 where you need to be on the M50 by 6:30am but cannot leave early so working until 5:30 - 6:00pm with a 1 hr plus commute home and every so often disasters of a 2 hour delay?

I would say you would need at least a €30k increase to justify it which, at best would be €15k increase into the pocket with tax etc. Also probable increase in petrol or diesel costs.

nc6000

I'd love to know if the reflective strips and bits of rope left on the bridges after the M50 was widened are ever going to be removed.

rogue-entity

If we're fixing the M50, any chance we could also raise the speed limit to something decent like 130kph.

Mycroft H

Lol, that'll only cause chaos. Imagine a thick in a BMW belting at 130 on lane three at 8 am in the morning.

HeidiHeidi

Mycroft H wrote: »

Lol, that'll only cause chaos. Imagine a thick in a BMW belting at 130 on lane three at 8 am in the morning.

8am???

Chance'd be a fine thing

kona

Mycroft H wrote: »

Lol, that'll only cause chaos. Imagine a thick in a BMW belting at 130 on lane three at 8 am in the morning.

Jaysus just imagine it. Probably take off at that speed.

magicbastarder

rogue-entity wrote: »

If we're fixing the M50, any chance we could also raise the speed limit to something decent like 130kph.

the figure of 100km/h is not plucked out of the air - it's based on sight lines and lane width, etc.

just a quick back of the envelope calculation - going from the M1 to the M11 junction - the difference in time taken between driving at 130km/h and at 100km/h is six minutes - i.e. just over 20 minutes as compared to just over 26 minutes. given the volume of traffic it carries - apart from the technical reason mentioned above - i can't see them raising the speed limit as it'd increase the chance of collisions.

Consonata

Personally, I think the couple of billion that would be needed for planning + building this new ring road would be better off invested in public transport, and development of transport out into places like Maynooth which have now almost become Dublin suburbs.

n97 mini

Consonata wrote: »

Personally, I think the couple of billion that would be needed for planning + building this new ring road would be better off invested in public transport, and development of transport out into places like Maynooth which have now almost become Dublin suburbs.

Maynooth has a train line which was first supposed to be electrified in 1977. Or was it 67, I can't remember.

In addition to electrifying the already in place rail lines, this whole bollox about Dublin's skyline, with it's sub 8-storey building limit, is a large part of the problem. Upwardly mobile 20-something year olds should be living in high rise apartments down in the Docklands. And I mean proper high rise, 13 to 30 storeys. Leave the 3-bed semis in the suburbs for young families who actually want to live in them.

Commotion Ocean

supermilk1 wrote: »

It's simply not able to cope. Poorly designed, not enough lanes where there's

Poorly designed? I completely agree.

Not enough lanes? I disagree. There are plenty of lanes. People just need to learn to keep left unless overtaking.

We need these on gantry signs in Ireland instead of the usual "slow down, speed kills" cráp.

supermilk1

The fact is that everyone agrees something has to be done, albeit different solutions either to build a road or build a suitable rail network but the sad thing is that it clearly isn't in the sights of the government.
Surely it would be a huge way to generate votes that they so desperately want. If this was the US a politician/governor would be looking to stamp his/her name on a project of this importance and leave a relic behind to remember them by. But for whatever the motive, it wouldn't be put on the long finger until the chaos is beyond return. It would be done at whatever cost as it is needed.
Sadly here we have self preserving lambs.
It's a scary thought to imagine the traffic on that road in 5 years. And for those who are against commuters, there will be a hell of a lot more on the road by then

Consonata

n97 mini wrote: »

Maynooth has a train line which was first supposed to be electrified in 1977. Or was it 67, I can't remember.

In addition to electrifying the already in place rail lines, this whole bollox about Dublin's skyline, with it's sub 8-storey building limit, is a large part of the problem. Upwardly mobile 20-something year olds should be living in high rise apartments down in the Docklands. And I mean proper high rise, 13 to 30 storeys. Leave the 3-bed semis in the suburbs for young families who actually want to live in them.

Completely agree. Also we should be expanding our dart system so we can connect more areas of north and south Dublin. Outside of the City Centre, it is really hard to get around. Adding another ring road is just a patch on the problem, we should be decreasing car usage in cities, not increasing it.

screamer

The M50 is a joke, the N7 is a bigger joke that's what happens when there's "freeflow" traffic. Truth is, the whole country is commuting to Dublin as there are no jobs outside it. Problem being that with every road they build, they then go along and choke it with houses, businesses etc which just adds to congestion issues.
With a lack of decently priced and reliable, far reaching public transport there really is no answer to this. Government make too much revenue out of cars and all that goes into them to care too much or indeed to have any incentive to tackle the problem of choking traffic congestion.
Best we can hope for is that self driving cars become reliable enough to be used for the monotonous every day commuting.