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Pro12 Officiating

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    #62
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,562 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The damning thing about that overview is that it's coming from a completely neutral source examining infringements from both teams.

    A few of the complaints were valid. Couldn't believe the 10 metre call myself for the quick tap, the Cardiff players were obviously on the try line and you can't go back 10 metres if the penalty is taken from 7 metres out!


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    #63
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    awec wrote: »
    A few of the complaints were valid.

    It will be possible to say this after every single rugby match ever played in any competition.


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    #64
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    A few of the complaints were valid. Couldn't believe the 10 metre call myself for the quick tap, the Cardiff players were obviously on the try line and you can't go back 10 metres if the penalty is taken from 7 metres out!

    Most of the complaints were breakdown related. You'd be some man to get those right 100% of the time as a referee.

    As for the penalty for not back 10, there is a Cardiff player there in that pic they provide who is nowhere near the line. Second last man. Correct call.

    dp8.jpg?w=700


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    #65
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,293 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Most of the complaints were breakdown related. You'd be some man to get those right 100% of the time as a referee.

    As for the penalty for not back 10, there is a Cardiff player there in that pic they provide who is nowhere near the line. Second last man. Correct call.

    dp8.jpg?w=700

    there was quite a few issues in that article that shows a lack of knowledge of the laws..... the very first point is laughable


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    #66
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    How can someone. Anyone. Any animal with at least one working eye. Look at that photo and come to the conclusion that all the Cardiff players were on the line?


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    #67
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    Will be interested to see howWilkinson gets on Saturday, causes ruptions at AIL level with his interpretation of scrum and inability or unwillingness to control offside. Don't rate him at all and if Darcy is right and there is "violence" can't see him keeping control. Still can't get over that call when Ringrose was penalised for a deliberate knock on when he clearly went to charge down a kick even after watching tmo. Need more ex pros reffing games and coaching referees


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    #68
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Will be interested to see howWilkinson gets on Saturday, causes ruptions at AIL level with his interpretation of scrum and inability or unwillingness to control offside. Don't rate him at all and if Darcy is right and there is "violence" can't see him keeping control. Still can't get over that call when Ringrose was penalised for a deliberate knock on when he clearly went to charge down a kick even after watching tmo. Need more ex pros reffing games and coaching referees
    Why? In many cases they haven't a notion and have none of what you need to be a top class referee


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    #69
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Will be interested to see howWilkinson gets on Saturday, causes ruptions at AIL level with his interpretation of scrum and inability or unwillingness to control offside. Don't rate him at all and if Darcy is right and there is "violence" can't see him keeping control. Still can't get over that call when Ringrose was penalised for a deliberate knock on when he clearly went to charge down a kick even after watching tmo. Need more ex pros reffing games and coaching referees

    he reffed the game last season, in thomond i think.


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    #70
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    The standard isn't deplorable and this set up is done as too many people will never have the balls to actually become a branch/society referee and referee outside of their club. Any game from under 13-19 can be refereed by someone with attendance at a short course but they can only referee within their own club and do so if an appointed referee from their provinces association or society of refs has not been appointed to the game. They only exist as not enough people are willing to take up membership of the assoc/socs and ref games at any level as appointed.
    There is very regularly refs from other countries refereeing games here as part of their development. Same as irish refs at AIL level are sent abroad for games at times if on the pathway to go higher.

    .... Awec you criticise refs when they've good performances never mind not great ones.....

    There is assessments done after this and there is training for affiliate refs. The affiliate course only exists because not enough people like yourself and others will not volunteer to become association refs.

    That would happen here if we had enough volunteers to ref. Associate refs wouldn't exist if we had enough people volunteering to become general members of their provinces association or society of referees. There is monthly meetings and bi monthly in some provinces for referees to train and improve. They are assessed regularly as well and those with potential to go further up the grades are assessed on a more regular basis.

    I have volunteered to become an associate referee actually, as I feel I could become a referee at a higher level, having been an affiliate for the past 4 years. So perhaps you could do less of the assuming, unless you're a referee yourself?


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    #71
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    I have volunteered to become an associate referee actually, as I feel I could become a referee at a higher level, having been an affiliate for the past 4 years. So perhaps you could do less of the assuming, unless you're a referee yourself?
    Refereeing as association ref 4 seasons now and been associate longer again.


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    #72
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Refereeing as association ref 4 seasons now and been associate longer again.

    Blow in. I was passed out in 2003 :)


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    #73
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Blow in. I was passed out in 2003 :)

    When did you come to? :pac:


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    #74
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Well to become an affiliate referee which allows you to referee within your own club or school, you have to attend a seminar run by David O'Brien where he talks for 3 hours and afterwards you are deemed fit to referee any game from U19 down. There are no assessments done on you after or before you finish this seminar and it is valid for 3 seasons. The only thing you must do is complete an IRB questionnaire and that's you done. Anything else you'd like to know?

    I am a ( very junior ) Leinster referee in my third season of refereeing and every single game I referee I try and do the best I can and l will be the first to admit I make mistakes from time to time and so does everyone at their respective level.

    But here's the other angle; when you're refereeing let's say an under 16's game on a dry day with a light breeze and you have to blow in excess of 10 scrums for knock ons, crooked line out throws, tell props where to put their head in a scrum and so on inside the first 20 minutes of the game the question can't but pop to mind why the referee should be the sole focus of attention.

    With all due respect to players and coaches not too many playing fields are crowded with successors to Dan Carter and Paul O'Connell so from where does the expectation emanate that the chap in the red or yellow jersey should be the next Nigel Owens or Craig Joubert.

    Grassroots rugby should be grateful that people are willing to do the Affiliate or Community Referee job as without them a lot of games would be doing without a referee with some level of training. On a side note, for those who are willing to listen to David O'Brien the man does convey a hell of a lot of useful information in a few hours. More than enough for anyone with reasonable law knowledge to be able to look after your average youths game.


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    #75
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    molloyjh wrote: »
    When did you come to? :pac:

    Twenty minutes ago :p


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    #76
    Mc Love
    Registered Users Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Surprised that there has been no comment about Wilko after last game or does everyone know he is a ****e ref anyway?


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    #77
    leakyboots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    I thought he was atrocious. Not to take away from Leinster's victory, they were the better team, but it's hard to take some of the choices he made during the game, they definitely cost us points (but I don't think it would have been the winning or the losing of it for us... but maybe a losing bonus point)


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    #78
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    leakyboots wrote: »
    I thought he was atrocious. Not to take away from Leinster's victory, they were the better team, but it's hard to take some of the choices he made during the game, they definitely cost us points (but I don't think it would have been the winning or the losing of it for us... but maybe a losing bonus point)

    Like what? Both sides got away with a fair amount. The breakdown looked like a bit of a free for all from where I was. He didn't seem the most consistent there, particularly when it came to players going in the side. But overall I didn't think he was all that bad.


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    #79
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Like what? Both sides got away with a fair amount. The breakdown looked like a bit of a free for all from where I was. He didn't seem the most consistent there, particularly when it came to players going in the side. But overall I didn't think he was all that bad.

    Like not sinbinning Murray for intentionally playing the ball into touch under pressure. Or sending off James Cronin for dancing on our scrum halves' head. A shame he was so pro-Munster really


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    #80
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,562 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Was the lineout Leinster got their first try from (the Zebo wonder-tackle) definitely a Leinster lineout?


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Thought he was consistently average. His biggest faux pas was the forward ball from Kearney to Nacewa for the try but otherwise he didn't favour either team.

    I reviewed the match again on TG4. He said the didn't see the grounding for the disallowed try and the TMO said not to award it for double movement so not his fault. He didn't see the grounding for the first try but felt there was enough there so awarded it.

    I do think he took too long on some decisions, but by and large I think he let the game flow. He could have been a lot tougher on some off side play from both teams but didn't get into it.

    Overall he was fine, don't think there can be many complaints.


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    #82
    JohnFalstaff
    Registered Users Posts: 874 ✭✭✭JohnFalstaff


    Wilkinson's positioning is seriously suspect - and not just on the couple of occasions when he actively got in the way of play (who was it called him a "f****** eejit" after that incident does anyone know?!?)

    Too often he seems to be caught on the wrong side at the breakdown or just generally unaware of how the play is going to develope.


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    #83
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Maybe I'm in the minority but I actually rather like Wilkinson as a referee


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    #84
    evil_seed
    Registered Users Posts: 3,446 ✭✭✭evil_seed


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Maybe I'm in the minority but I actually rather like Wilkinson as a referee

    bizarre coming from a Connacht fan. He's awful

    As for the ref in the Connacht - Ulster game, fecking hell! He warned Browne 3 times and 2 of those times he said no more or else. He did the same with Payne. The craziest of all was the advice to tell his team no more high tackles :eek:


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    #85
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    JohnFalstaff wrote: »
    Wilkinson's positioning is seriously suspect - and not just on the couple of occasions when he actively got in the way of play (who was it called him a "f****** eejit" after that incident does anyone know?!?)

    Too often he seems to be caught on the wrong side at the breakdown or just generally unaware of how the play is going to develope.

    Maybe he just presumed Munster would be properly defending the blind side!

    Yeah he twice got in the way of play once requiring a restart but the best ref's in the world have this happen every few games.

    The "****ing eejit" was a Leinster player making fun of the Munster player for running into the ref (or that's how it seemed to me).


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    #86
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Was the lineout Leinster got their first try from (the Zebo wonder-tackle) definitely a Leinster lineout?

    Haven't watched it back but I think so. Nacewa was still in play as Zebo was between him and the ground when he released it. The ball clearly came off Murrays had before going into touch so unless Isa was somehow in touch before he let it go (didn't seem to be) then it was the right call.

    IBF does raise an interesting question re Murray intentionally knocking it into touch, but not something anyone would lose sleep over I don't think.


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    #87
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    molloyjh wrote: »
    IBF does raise an interesting question re Murray intentionally knocking it into touch, but not something anyone would lose sleep over I don't think.

    I don't know how anyone could sleep in the face of such an injustice


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    #88
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I don't know how anyone could sleep in the face of such an injustice

    sure wasnt Zebo at it last season too. Should be minimum 12 week bans for it :eek:


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    #89
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    evil_seed wrote: »
    bizarre coming from a Connacht fan. He's awful

    As for the ref in the Connacht - Ulster game, fecking hell! He warned Browne 3 times and 2 of those times he said no more or else. He did the same with Payne. The craziest of all was the advice to tell his team no more high tackles :eek:
    I don't remember Wilkinson ruining any Connacht match of the top of my head (he is no Clancy)

    I was convinced Conway had a shocking game alright but I rewatched it recording on TG4 and not as bad as I initially thought when at the game (funny what few pints and adreline does ha) . He did give a lot of final warnings mind which seems kinda counter intuitive


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    #90
    leakyboots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,969 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Ah molloy look back at my posts on the match thread, I've consistently said he was poor for both sides. But I do think the decisions against us were particularly bad and led to scores against us.


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    #91
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    Unfortunately as anticipated he was poor for both sides not a top level ref not even an AIL standard ref from what I have seen of him over the last 2 years


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