Pro12 Officiating

molloyjh

It's this old chestnut again, but I think the last few weeks have made it a valid topic again. This isn't just about poor officiating (although there has been a lot of that), but also about how the Pro12 approaches assigning referees to games as well. The examples I'm using are from Leinster games as they're the ones I've watched most closely, but if anyone has any to add fire away. This isn't a whinge about a ref not spotting someone rolling away once, that happens. It's more about poor referee appointments and really noticeably poor performances. I don't want this to deteriorate into a moany thread but there have been some clangers so far this season already and we're only just a month in.

Saturday saw a Leinster referee take on a Leinster game in Cardiff. That's just crazy. I don't for a second think there was any bias involved in Dudley Phillips' display, but once there were a few questionable decisions made it suddenly became very easy for people to make those kinds of claims. It's common enough to have a referee from the same country as one of the sides involved in the game, but from the same province is even worse. The Pro12 should be trying to win people over, not giving them excuses to take another shot at the league. In Leinsters 5 games so far the man in the middle has been Irish 3 times. In the other 2 the referee was from a neutral country.

And that brings us to the questionable decisions. There were some obvious ones at the end of that game on Saturday, particularly the missed hands on the deck from Heaslip (more the AR than Philips there) and the lack of a yellow for Sexton despite being warned not to go for the ball in the ruck. After a relatively soft enough yellow against Navidi that was a let off for Leinster. And at that stage of the game those decisions were pretty big ones. But there were other issues in that game too that didn't all go Leinsters way. Nick Williams launching himself shoulder first into Mike Ross's face was crazy. Where was the AR for that? Still watching the Leavy non-try?

That one was a total shocker. It was clear Leavys arm was in touch and yet he still tried to give the try despite watching the replay numerous times. He had to be told to look again, in essence being coached into the right decision. It seemed to me that Phillips was having a poor game, made only worse by the ARs and the TMO who weren't giving him the support he needed.

Go back to last week in the RDS and Mitrea seemed keen to even up the penalty count in the third quarter, plus that Sexton knock-on that clearly wasn't. How the ref saw fit to call that and the TMO didn't bother trying to correct him is beyond me. Or the Edinburgh game where Ringrose got pinged for a deliberate knock on (via 3 officials) for having charged down a clearing kick. There were a number of times in that game where Isa looked totally baffled by Wilkonsons calls. In 5 Leinster games this season there have been either truly terrible calls made or general poor officiating in 3 of them. That's a pretty poor statistic for a league that has high hopes for the future.

Like I said I don't want this to be a whinge. A missed knock-on in general play or other small things like that will happen. Refs can't see everything and be everywhere. However between a team of 4 of them they should be able to get the big decisions right. Having seen some of the stuff I've seen this season they seem to even be struggling there more than they should be. Is the Pro12 doing all it can to help develop refs (I know this is primarily the Unions job), review performances and ensure as much impartiality as possible? Because for as long as we have these issues this league will struggle to win over it's domestic audience (particularly those in Wales, who are the ones we really need to be winning over).

Adbrowne

molloyjh wrote: »

Nick Williams launching himself shoulder first into Mike Ross's face was crazy. Where was the AR for that? Still watching the Leavy non-try?

That one was a total shocker. It was clear Leavys arm was in touch and yet he still tried to give the try despite watching the replay numerous times. He had to be told to look again, in essence being coached into the right decision. It seemed to me that Phillips was having a poor game, made only worse by the ARs and the TMO who weren't giving him the support he needed.

An Edinburgh player got cited and banned after their game with Munster for a similar offence to the Nick Williams one. Its the lack of consistency which is the killer. From one week to the next there is a different set of rules to play by because different refs have wildy different interpretations.

The Leavy Non Try was the TMO's fault completely because the ref even said the big screen isnt very clear. The lack of refs from scotland and only 1 [i think] from Italy makes it a very tough issue to deal with as you are then relying on wales and ireland. But they make up two-thirds of the league.

NiallBoo

Re the leavy"try".

I think the correct decision here would have been "inconclusive", and a scrum awarded.

While he may well have been in touch - nobody could see whether his hand touched the ground or not.

This is why the decision flip-flopped between yes and no - the TMO just couldn't see enough to make a definite call - thus inconclusive.

In general I think TMO use could be tweaked - they always seem to have too much to do when they're needed, can't get the video they need, aren't clear on what the ref is looking for and often the ref just goes and makes a call (right or wrong) to try and get the game going again.

mitresize5

Under no circumstances should a ref be in the middle when his home town/province are playing. I know decent refs are thin on the ground in the pro 12 and this wasn't helped by Lacey and Clancy being in Australia but having Dudley reffing Leinster or Lacey/Clancy doing Munster smacks of amateur hour.

Having said that Dudley is the one of the worst I've seen and I thought he rode Cardiff on Saturday, not because he's a Leinster man but because he's a terrible ref.

Interested Observer

NiallBoo wrote: »

Re the leavy"try".

I think the correct decision here would have been "inconclusive", and a scrum awarded.

While he may well have been in touch - nobody could see whether his hand touched the ground or not.

This is why the decision flip-flopped between yes and no - the TMO just couldn't see enough to make a definite call - thus inconclusive.

I thought there was definitely a camera angle that showed he was in touch, no doubt about it for me.

NiallBoo

Interested Observer wrote: »

I thought there was definitely a camera angle that showed he was in touch, no doubt about it for me.

Could you see his hand hit the ground?

Or was it that his hand probably hit the ground but you couldn't see because the Cardiff player was in the way?

molloyjh

NiallBoo wrote: »

Could you see his hand hit the ground?

Or was it that his hand probably hit the ground but you couldn't see because the Cardiff player was in the way?

Technically you couldn't see it but unless Leavy has an extra joint in his lower arm there's no way he wasn't in touch. There's got to be some common sense involved there.

Interested Observer

NiallBoo wrote: »

Could you see his hand hit the ground?

Or was it that his hand probably hit the ground but you couldn't see because the Cardiff player was in the way?

I'm not looking at it right now but from watching it at the time, there was an angle that showed his arm hitting the ground.

Riskymove

mitresize5 wrote: »

Under no circumstances should a ref be in the middle when his home town/province are playing. I know decent refs are thin on the ground in the pro 12 and this wasn't helped by Lacey and Clancy being in Australia but having Dudley reffing Leinster or Lacey/Clancy doing Munster smacks of amateur hour.

We've had this discussed before - in particular I recall the agro around Rollaind reffing Munster vs Leinster

One issue is availability - are there Ulster and Connacht Refs at the right level to take games in Pro12?

There have similarly been eyebrows raised over this in the GAA and it just leads to easy criticisms and claims of biais which can be avoided.

NiallBoo

molloyjh wrote: »

Technically you couldn't see it but unless Leavy has an extra joint in his lower arm there's no way he wasn't in touch. There's got to be some common sense involved there.

Either way, it was much closer than that with only a few cm in the difference. The Cardiff player was only just holding onto leavy's forearm (in fairness, it was pretty impressive last-ditch defence).
The common sense approach is to acknowledge that you can't always get an answer - which they do by having the "inconclusive" option.

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm not looking at it right now but from watching it at the time, there was an angle that showed his arm hitting the ground.

What I saw was an angle from the pitch which had bodies in the way and was too far out to see. And the one from the endline where the Cardiff player's arm was in the way.

If there was a clear angle then we would have had a quick and definite answer.

It's obvious that the officials were in two minds and the decision was only made because the ref wanted to get on with it.

Without the TMO, touch would have been the right call from the ref - but when you go to the TMO and can see that there's no definite answer then you need to call it inconclusive and award a scrum.

It's just one example -
The real point here is that you need ref and TMO to follow the process, but it's ignored all too often.

Interested Observer

That's all well and good but I'm sure there was an angle that clearly showed he was in touch. When the game goes up on TG4 I might check. The TMO is fallible, maybe he didn't see it.

ArmchairQB

AIL refs now there is a topic!! Most have no idea of scrum what so ever where do they get coached in refereeing? Who coaches them? Latest chesnut is that we were told by one ref who also does Pro 12 that he could not ref the offside & breakdown only one or the other :eek:. Really takes away from the game and enjoyment by so many when the man in the middle is so often blatantly ignoring or does not know the laws of the game. No problem if a mistake or two happens as we all can make those but the standard seems to be getting worse and the arrogance of some is very dissapointing. Not all may I add but a growing majority and mostly those who have never really played outside of school. Need to get some good ex pros into the system for what is a very difficult job

NiallBoo

Interested Observer wrote: »

When the game goes up on TG4 I might check. The TMO is fallible, maybe he didn't see it.

Good idea, i was looking for video but forgot that tg4 have matches on playback.

Interested Observer

Sorry the quality isn't great but you can see his arm go into touch. If you watch it on the video with the couple of frames before hand it's clear.

Clearlier

Interested Observer wrote: »

Sorry the quality isn't great but you can see his arm go into touch. If you watch it on the video with the couple of frames before hand it's clear.

I'm not at all convinced by that picture. I think that the area that you highlighted is far more likely to be the jersey of the defender than the hand of Leavy - in fact I think that he'd need to be double jointed to have his hand there given where his elbow is. That said I wouldn't have been happy to see that given as a try. I think that it's more than likely that he was in touch and while I have this notion in my head that the attacker is supposed to be given the benefit of the doubt for me it's too likely that he was in touch to award that as a try.

That decision aside there's clearly an issue with the production of referees at Pro 12 level in Scotland and Italy. What I'd like to see is the sharing of whatever the IRFU did about 15 - 20 years ago to improve the quality of the referees. For all that you might complain about them at the moment the IRFU are arguably producing the best referees in the Pro 12 and I'd like to see that process shared and then improved.

I don't suppose that anyone has any insights into what if any sharing of plans to develop referees goes on between countries?

Rugby is a difficult game to referee. Improving referee standards needs to be an iterative process, there should be a recognition that mistakes will be made but so long as there's a commitment to working at continuously improving the standard I don't think that we could have too many complaints. I don't know if that commitment is widespread.

molloyjh

Clearlier wrote: »

I'm not at all convinced by that picture. I think that the area that you highlighted is far more likely to be the jersey of the defender than the hand of Leavy

But you can clearly make out fingers? And why would the jersey be almost a box like shape and in the position it is in?

NiallBoo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Sorry the quality isn't great but you can see his arm go into touch.

fair play, that took some detective work. No doubt from me that his hand is on the line there.

Two points though:
1.
If that was the basis for the decision then great - no problem.
...I have my doubts that it was though. If it were then we wouldn't have had that yes/no stuff going on. I still don't think the process was followed - the TMO called it a try but the ref wouldn't have had such a good view and called it out. It's not a problem that he got it right, the problem is that he was taking a complete guess.

2. If the footage was there then why did it take so long? why are they so bad at the technicals?

Either the TMO never saw this or it took an absolute age for him to see it.

Too often the footage is there but the ref is forced move things on before anyone gets to see it - or everyone would die of boredom. It also stops things going to TMO when they really should.

NiallBoo

molloyjh wrote: »

But you can clearly make out fingers? And why would the jersey be almost a box like shape and in the position it is in?

I think it's a closed fist that hits the line.

It's also a bit confusing that the touch-areas are blue and kind of look like the Cardiff jerseys in places.

Clearlier

molloyjh wrote: »

But you can clearly make out fingers? And why would the jersey be almost a box like shape and in the position it is in?

I can't. I mean, not at all. I've just got a shadowy area. I am however using a 14 year old 18" monitor which was top of the range at the time but may now be slightly out of date. If fingers are visible I'll just take your word for it.

Mc Love

I think there should be an independent body of referee's that are appointed to games for the Pro12/Premiership. That way the better you are at your job, the more top games you get and any games where you have a poor performance, you get the lower league games. Might be a way for ref's to better themselves.

Interested Observer

NiallBoo wrote: »

I think it's a closed fist that hits the line.

It's also a bit confusing that the touch-areas are blue and kind of look like the Cardiff jerseys in places.

It is 100% his closed fist hitting the line.

It's actually a quite excellent piece of defending.

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

It's this old chestnut again, but I think the last few weeks have made it a valid topic again. This isn't just about poor officiating (although there has been a lot of that), but also about how the Pro12 approaches assigning referees to games as well. The examples I'm using are from Leinster games as they're the ones I've watched most closely, but if anyone has any to add fire away. This isn't a whinge about a ref not spotting someone rolling away once, that happens. It's more about poor referee appointments and really noticeably poor performances. I don't want this to deteriorate into a moany thread but there have been some clangers so far this season already and we're only just a month in.

Saturday saw a Leinster referee take on a Leinster game in Cardiff. That's just crazy. I don't for a second think there was any bias involved in Dudley Phillips' display, but once there were a few questionable decisions made it suddenly became very easy for people to make those kinds of claims. It's common enough to have a referee from the same country as one of the sides involved in the game, but from the same province is even worse. The Pro12 should be trying to win people over, not giving them excuses to take another shot at the league. In Leinsters 5 games so far the man in the middle has been Irish 3 times. In the other 2 the referee was from a neutral country.

And that brings us to the questionable decisions. There were some obvious ones at the end of that game on Saturday, particularly the missed hands on the deck from Heaslip (more the AR than Philips there) and the lack of a yellow for Sexton despite being warned not to go for the ball in the ruck. After a relatively soft enough yellow against Navidi that was a let off for Leinster. And at that stage of the game those decisions were pretty big ones. But there were other issues in that game too that didn't all go Leinsters way. Nick Williams launching himself shoulder first into Mike Ross's face was crazy. Where was the AR for that? Still watching the Leavy non-try?

That one was a total shocker. It was clear Leavys arm was in touch and yet he still tried to give the try despite watching the replay numerous times. He had to be told to look again, in essence being coached into the right decision. It seemed to me that Phillips was having a poor game, made only worse by the ARs and the TMO who weren't giving him the support he needed.

Go back to last week in the RDS and Mitrea seemed keen to even up the penalty count in the third quarter, plus that Sexton knock-on that clearly wasn't. How the ref saw fit to call that and the TMO didn't bother trying to correct him is beyond me. Or the Edinburgh game where Ringrose got pinged for a deliberate knock on (via 3 officials) for having charged down a clearing kick. There were a number of times in that game where Isa looked totally baffled by Wilkonsons calls. In 5 Leinster games this season there have been either truly terrible calls made or general poor officiating in 3 of them. That's a pretty poor statistic for a league that has high hopes for the future.

Like I said I don't want this to be a whinge. A missed knock-on in general play or other small things like that will happen. Refs can't see everything and be everywhere. However between a team of 4 of them they should be able to get the big decisions right. Having seen some of the stuff I've seen this season they seem to even be struggling there more than they should be. Is the Pro12 doing all it can to help develop refs (I know this is primarily the Unions job), review performances and ensure as much impartiality as possible? Because for as long as we have these issues this league will struggle to win over it's domestic audience (particularly those in Wales, who are the ones we really need to be winning over).

I don't see why nationality has to come into it. If they are not from the area of one of the teams playing then its not an issue.. Its more than primarily the unions jobs. Its completely their job.

mitresize5 wrote: »

Under no circumstances should a ref be in the middle when his home town/province are playing. I know decent refs are thin on the ground in the pro 12 and this wasn't helped by Lacey and Clancy being in Australia but having Dudley reffing Leinster or Lacey/Clancy doing Munster smacks of amateur hour.

Having said that Dudley is the one of the worst I've seen and I thought he rode Cardiff on Saturday, not because he's a Leinster man but because he's a terrible ref.

Refs shouldn't be from area of team involved but same country is fine IMO

ArmchairQB wrote: »

AIL refs now there is a topic!! Most have no idea of scrum what so ever where do they get coached in refereeing? Who coaches them? Latest chesnut is that we were told by one ref who also does Pro 12 that he could not ref the offside & breakdown only one or the other . Really takes away from the game and enjoyment by so many when the man in the middle is so often blatantly ignoring or does not know the laws of the game. No problem if a mistake or two happens as we all can make those but the standard seems to be getting worse and the arrogance of some is very dissapointing. Not all may I add but a growing majority and mostly those who have never really played outside of school. Need to get some good ex pros into the system for what is a very difficult job

Why should ex pros be better?

Mc Love wrote: »

I think there should be an independent body of referee's that are appointed to games for the Pro12/Premiership. That way the better you are at your job, the more top games you get and any games where you have a poor performance, you get the lower league games. Might be a way for ref's to better themselves.

Who funds this independent body of referees and the bit in red is the way and has always been the way you progress in refereeing.

FellasFellas

What's really comical is that the English Premiership has an abundance of referees; good ones at that, and for Leinster - Ulster a few years ago - they bring over Luke Pearce to referee it, which I thought was great. Can't really remember any other instances of them doing that, when it's exactly whats needed.And yet, there's a Welsh referee who refereed in the JWC reffing Marys - Trinity the other night. Like, it boggles the mind.

Go out and watch any schools game or J1 game, and the standard is absolutely deplorable. The referees all have such a sense of self importance and make games all about them. Also the fact that any U12-U19 game can be refereed by someone who attends a two hour seminar where you sit and just go through a slideshow without any practical or assessment and you're told to go forth and referee all before you. Literally nothing worse than a referee ruining a schools game when you can see the kids getting more and more frustrated with the standard.

Losty Dublin

FellasFellas wrote: »

Go out and watch any schools game or J1 game, and the standard is absolutely deplorable. The referees all have such a sense of self importance and make games all about them. Also the fact that any U12-U19 game can be refereed by someone who attends a two hour seminar where you sit and just go through a slideshow without any practical or assessment and you're told to go forth and referee all before you. Literally nothing worse than a referee ruining a schools game when you can see the kids getting more and more frustrated with the standard.

It's pretty clear from this statement that you know little or nothing about referee coaching within the IRFU. But please, you are welcome to prove me wrong here

swiwi_

On the positive side, the lad who reffed the Ulster game (Ben Whitehouse I think) was very good, and that usually seems to be the case for him.

I would have thought it's a no-brainer not appointing home-town refs, and doesn't help the Pro 12's slightly amateurish image (in terms of administration).

The forum has way too much anti-ref talk, though, match day-threads are often crippled by it - not helped that a couple of the mods often tend to be the main critics.

irishbucsfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

On the positive side, the lad who reffed the Ulster game (Ben Whitehouse I think) was very good, and that usually seems to be the case for him.

I would have thought it's a no-brainer not appointing home-town refs, and doesn't help the Pro 12's slightly amateurish image (in terms of administration).

The forum has way too much anti-ref talk, though, match day-threads are often crippled by it - not helped that a couple of the mods often tend to be the main critics.

Yes this forum is particularly bad for it, and it's pretty laughable to then see people looking down on the Welsh for doing the same thing. Generally its hard not to cringe at some of the people criticising referees when they have no practical experience within the game, or refereeing in particular, because the comments are generally so out of touch and unreasonable.

molloyjh

swiwi_ wrote: »

On the positive side, the lad who reffed the Ulster game (Ben Whitehouse I think) was very good, and that usually seems to be the case for him.

I would have thought it's a no-brainer not appointing home-town refs, and doesn't help the Pro 12's slightly amateurish image (in terms of administration).

The forum has way too much anti-ref talk, though, match day-threads are often crippled by it - not helped that a couple of the mods often tend to be the main critics.

Yeah I like Whitehouse myself. Saw the first half of the Ulster game live and thought he was doing a fine job. Really clear, likes to let the game flow etc.

The anti-ref thing during a match is one thing. But afterwards is very different. It's like when a player does something wrong, people will react with a "ah what are you doing!?" type thing, but it's quickly forgotten about. That kind of thing with refs is grand I reckon. It's another thing entirely to bang on about them constantly afterwards and blame the result on them. It's a rare thing that officials are the reason for a team losing. The point of this thread really was that there have been some real clangers already and we're only 5 games in. And those things only add to that amateur image.

Interested Observer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes this forum is particularly bad for it, and it's pretty laughable to then see people looking down on the Welsh for doing the same thing. Generally its hard not to cringe at some of the people criticising referees when they have no practical experience within the game, or refereeing in particular, because the comments are generally so out of touch and unreasonable.

swiwi_ wrote: »

The forum has way too much anti-ref talk, though, match day-threads are often crippled by it - not helped that a couple of the mods often tend to be the main critics.

I totally agree with you both, and being honest I've probably been guilty of it myself in the past. It's getting dragged up before a ball is kicked these days which is a joke, it's like a ready made excuse if thing don't go well for your team. I don't know why anyone would want to be a ref these days, seems it just leaves you open to abuse and little else.

The level of officiating in the Pro12 is not that bad. Irish refs reffing Irish teams is obviously not ideal from an optics point of view if nothing else but if Ireland are producing lots of refs and other countries aren't then it's hard to see what else can be done. Who was available to ref the Leinster - Cardiff game for example that wasn't Irish or Welsh?

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes this forum is particularly bad for it, and it's pretty laughable to then see people looking down on the Welsh for doing the same thing. Generally its hard not to cringe at some of the people criticising referees when they have no practical experience within the game, or refereeing in particular, because the comments are generally so out of touch and unreasonable.

Based on highly reliable analysis, I'd say the breakdown of referee criticism on boards.ie is:

40% perception bias - a call against my team must automatically be wrong
30% ignorance of the rules - self-explanatory really
20% previous grudges - the Roman Poite effect
10% legitimate grievances

The idea that the current batch of referees is somehow worse than previous doesn't really hold water. What has changed is our ability to micro-analyse every controversial call for days and weeks afterwards.

I agree it's not ideal to have 'home' referees but the reality is that when two of the four countries provide the vast bulk of the referees, there's no ideal solution.

awec

It's easy to sit and say the refereeing is fine when your team hasn't been on the end of some outrageously bad decisions that have at times cost matches, and big matches at that.

Clearlier

former total wrote: »

The idea that the current batch of referees is somehow worse than previous doesn't really hold water. What has changed is our ability to micro-analyse every controversial call for days and weeks afterwards.

I'd say that refereeing has never been better. By and large I think that referees are much better communicators and make a much bigger effort to be even handed than say 20 years ago. Referees still decide the result of some matches but it's much rarer than it used to be. There's loads of room for improvement and I hope that we see it but you're right, what has improved is our ability to analyse their performance and provide evidence of that analysis.